My whole point is bad writing took casting decisions in the 70's and conflated that into "see how evil the empire is and how good the rebels are?

The detention officer in that case would of known what a Wookiee was, and the look on his face and his tone of voice clearly was intended to carry a sense of disdain for the Wookiee.

Also the xenophobia of the Empire was something that was part of the Empire from the start, it wasn't just something added in with the EU to cover a plot hole or something.

Yeah. If anyone's not aware, The Galactic Empire was based heavily off of Nazi Germany.

That should clear up a lot.

I've never heard of this test, or any of the related tests before this.

They are all idiocy.

If I had any of these tests regulating what I can and can't watch, read, or otherwise enjoy, I'd be living a seriously limited existence.

I'll never understand the need of large numbers of people to find "someone like me" in every bit of media they consume.

If I followed their example, I'd never have enjoyed Alien(s), Hunger Games, or any number of other stories and properties.

People certainly limit themselves with the ways they label themselves.

Of course, that's an easy attitude to have if you're not the one finding yourself underrepresented. The test does not exist in order to censor what you can or can't watch. It's just there to point out that many stories are very heavily male-focused. (This includes many so-called "chick flicks".)

You're right that Alien, Hunger Games and such-like are great stories. In other words, we don't need our overrepresentation in order to enjoy these stories. So, what's the problem with portraying others so that they can feel included? That might also mean a larger group of people to enjoy Star Wars games with.

But, the RW politics of this matter aside....

My whole point is bad writing took casting decisions in the 70's and conflated that into "see how evil the empire is and how good the rebels are? Racists!"

You're absolutely right that the EU took off with that. Yet, it seems like it's been tapered back, if Lagomorphia is right about the early EU vs. the later EU. I also agree that much of the EU has really horrible writing.

So, I take it that you don't think the Empire should be considered racist/sexist? Are there non-movie villainies that you would ascribe to them, or do the movies, and only the movies, portray their entire range of depravedness?

Yeah. If anyone's not aware, The Galactic Empire was based heavily off of Nazi Germany.

That should clear up a lot.

Whereas I was very much under the impression that it was all based on 60s-70s USA and the Vietnam war. It's been a while but I remember reading about it in a 20th century USA culture class. Lucas's original script was filled with notes he had written about various allegories he had made between the two.

Whereas I was very much under the impression that it was all based on 60s-70s USA and the Vietnam war.

I've never hard anything like that before. I'm inclined it's something someone made up as more propaganda again the 'Nam war.

On the other hand I've heard more then once that George based the Empire off Nazi Germany. The look of it, the names they use, ect... the uniformity of it, the Stormtroopers... All are clearly inspired by WWII Nazi's.

Also part of that is the clear xenophobia of the Empire.

Yeah. If anyone's not aware, The Galactic Empire was based heavily off of Nazi Germany.

That should clear up a lot.

Whereas I was very much under the impression that it was all based on 60s-70s USA and the Vietnam war. It's been a while but I remember reading about it in a 20th century USA culture class. Lucas's original script was filled with notes he had written about various allegories he had made between the two.

Huh, I hadn't heard that, but I'm now reading about this. It does make sense. Though I wonder if it might horrify some more conservative Star Wars fans. Then again, there is also a powerful strain of conservatism that is anti-government, to which it also appeals.

That said, I do agree with Captain Lackwit that the imagery of the Empire is unmistakably influenced by Nazi Germany. I think that Star Wars gets part of its appeal because it's able to be a metaphor for so many different things. Hell, the way the EU frequently writes about the Rebellion, you'd think that Mon Mothma is a form of George Washington, thereby channeling the American Revolution.

The Empire didn't explicitly discriminate against women so much as make their lives a living hell due to an implicit culture that valued 'women should be at home'. I don't believe Palpatine explicitly made any moves regarding sexism specifically, only that a military dominated by male clones for a generation, and then suddenly opened to the rest of the galaxy and ruled by a Sith lord fueled by hatred might naturally take on an irrational 'evolutionary bias' against women.

Women faced a glass ceiling as many did not feel they were reliable in combat, that they were distractions for the men, and they were subject to brutal ****, abuse and lax reporting by superiors.

Not so different from the US Military now, really...

The difficulties women face are not from policy, but the reverberating after effects of a very long history of patriarchal culture. In our case, plain old history, in the Empire's case, Darkside Magic and an army of entirely the same gender.

In some of his earliest interviews and magazines, Lucas has explicitly stated that the Empire is based off of Nazi Germany. Particularly the imagery of Darth Vader and the Stormtroopers. This was like 40 years ago back in the 70s..

Yeah. If anyone's not aware, The Galactic Empire was based heavily off of Nazi Germany.

That should clear up a lot.

Whereas I was very much under the impression that it was all based on 60s-70s USA and the Vietnam war. It's been a while but I remember reading about it in a 20th century USA culture class. Lucas's original script was filled with notes he had written about various allegories he had made between the two.

Huh, I hadn't heard that, but I'm now reading about this. It does make sense. Though I wonder if it might horrify some more conservative Star Wars fans. Then again, there is also a powerful strain of conservatism that is anti-government, to which it also appeals.

That said, I do agree with Captain Lackwit that the imagery of the Empire is unmistakably influenced by Nazi Germany. I think that Star Wars gets part of its appeal because it's able to be a metaphor for so many different things. Hell, the way the EU frequently writes about the Rebellion, you'd think that Mon Mothma is a form of George Washington, thereby channeling the American Revolution.

I've never hard anything like that before. I'm inclined it's something someone made up as more propaganda again the 'Nam war.

Well, it's coming from George Lucas' own mouth. In the previous decade he also literally said that the prequels could be seen as commentary on the Iraq War, and that there were parallels between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War.

Now, Lucas is perfectly capable of offering after-the-fact rationalization that wasn't actually on his 1970s conscious mind, but I think it's more reasonable to believe that he's honest about it, especially when you think about what might have been on his subconscious mind given his generation and the fact that he was nearly drafted to go to Vietnam himself.

Well, it's coming from George Lucas' own mouth.

Is it? I mean I'd have to see some sort of proof of that. Having lived though that era but being too young to be drafted, I have trouble seeing the link between the US involvement in Nam and the Empire.

I have no trouble seeing the link between Nazi Germany and the Empire however. I also know that I've heard more then once that George himself said the Empire was based on the Nazi's.

Is it? I mean I'd have to see some sort of proof of that.

Here's a link.

I have no trouble seeing the link between Nazi Germany and the Empire however. I also know that I've heard more then once that George himself said the Empire was based on the Nazi's.

Oh, and as I said, the Nazi's are the unmistakable parallel. However, that doesn't mean that it's exclusively so. Also, the structure of the galactic civil war is not a conventional war like WWII was.

Having lived though that era but being too young to be drafted, I have trouble seeing the link between the US involvement in Nam and the Empire.

Well, you have to start with the premise that the US was symbolized by the Empire. Given that George Lucas was in California in the 1960s makes that a very natural corrolary. I'm not saying that he's been a liberal firebrand in his career. He clearly hasn't been. But at that time in that place, it seems quite natural that he would have made that connection.

Yeah. If anyone's not aware, The Galactic Empire was based heavily off of Nazi Germany.

That should clear up a lot.

Whereas I was very much under the impression that it was all based on 60s-70s USA and the Vietnam war. It's been a while but I remember reading about it in a 20th century USA culture class. Lucas's original script was filled with notes he had written about various allegories he had made between the two.

Huh, I hadn't heard that, but I'm now reading about this. It does make sense. Though I wonder if it might horrify some more conservative Star Wars fans. Then again, there is also a powerful strain of conservatism that is anti-government, to which it also appeals.

That said, I do agree with Captain Lackwit that the imagery of the Empire is unmistakably influenced by Nazi Germany. I think that Star Wars gets part of its appeal because it's able to be a metaphor for so many different things. Hell, the way the EU frequently writes about the Rebellion, you'd think that Mon Mothma is a form of George Washington, thereby channeling the American Revolution.

Yeah, basically the Vietnamese were the Rebels and the USA was the Empire according to George Lucas according to what I read.

Yeah, basically the Vietnamese were the Rebels and the USA was the Empire according to George Lucas according to what I read.

Yeah I don't buy that at all, he was not trying to equate the USA to the Empire, or that the Vietcon were noble freedom fighters.

Someone would have to provide a scanned image of his notes in a script before I'll buy that. Even in that link provided George doesn't say anything of that sort, and that was a comment he made in 2005...

Yeah. If anyone's not aware, The Galactic Empire was based heavily off of Nazi Germany.

That should clear up a lot.

Whereas I was very much under the impression that it was all based on 60s-70s USA and the Vietnam war. It's been a while but I remember reading about it in a 20th century USA culture class. Lucas's original script was filled with notes he had written about various allegories he had made between the two.

Huh, I hadn't heard that, but I'm now reading about this. It does make sense. Though I wonder if it might horrify some more conservative Star Wars fans. Then again, there is also a powerful strain of conservatism that is anti-government, to which it also appeals.

That said, I do agree with Captain Lackwit that the imagery of the Empire is unmistakably influenced by Nazi Germany. I think that Star Wars gets part of its appeal because it's able to be a metaphor for so many different things. Hell, the way the EU frequently writes about the Rebellion, you'd think that Mon Mothma is a form of George Washington, thereby channeling the American Revolution.

Yeah, basically the Vietnamese were the Rebels and the USA was the Empire according to George Lucas according to what I read.

Nope. It was the Ewoks who were the Veitnamese.

I was born in 70. Star Wars WAS my childhood. I read and watched anything and everything I could get about it, including a Star Wars Question and Answer Book About Space. I still have that thing. ****, it's dated. Hilarious stuff, now.

There was a PBS program about RotJ just after it came out, in which Lucas says the thing about the Ewoks and another project he was working on involving the Veitnam war.

I'm imagining that this has been conflated into something it's not on the internet.

I've never hard anything like that before. I'm inclined it's something someone made up as more propaganda again the 'Nam war.

Well, it's coming from George Lucas' own mouth. In the previous decade he also literally said that the prequels could be seen as commentary on the Iraq War, and that there were parallels between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War.

Now, Lucas is perfectly capable of offering after-the-fact rationalization that wasn't actually on his 1970s conscious mind, but I think it's more reasonable to believe that he's honest about it, especially when you think about what might have been on his subconscious mind given his generation and the fact that he was nearly drafted to go to Vietnam himself.

Filming for EP I began on June 26, 1997.

Filming for EP III began on June 26, 2000.

The US action against Iraq started on 20 March 2003.

Unless Lucas has a Police Box hidden on the ranch somewhere, I find this connection a little more than hard to swallow.

At the time, however, I remember thinking about the current events unfolding while watching EP II. But, since I'd already known about the parallels between the Empire and Nazi Germany, I wrote it off on the fact that False Flags have not only been used throughout history, but were specifically used by Germany with the Gleiwitz event.

Also, if anyone is taking stuff that comes "straight from Lucas's mouth" as some kind of gospel, just remember that this is the man who said the Special Editions were him finally doing things the way he'd wanted from the beginning.

That's essentially this man saying, "No, I always wanted Han to shoot first, but just didn't do it that way because of time constraints . . . or budget . . . or a lack of understanding of what constitutes good story telling as it relates to character development."

Of course, this is also the man with a fairly active and competent Ministry of Truth of his own, so take that into consideration as well.

this is the man who said the Special Editions were him finally doing things the way he'd wanted from the beginning.

Yeah... Some of that I buy, I don't doubt he'd like to of had Mos Eisley be more like it was in the SE versions or have more tie fighters and x-wings on the screen. But due to budget and tech issues he couldn't.

But the whole Han was never supposed to shoot first... I can't think of a single reason why George couldn't of done it that way from the start.

Indeed. Once the text is released the author is dead. His intent has no more inherent authority than any other critic.

Yeah, basically the Vietnamese were the Rebels and the USA was the Empire according to George Lucas according to what I read.

Yeah I don't buy that at all, he was not trying to equate the USA to the Empire, or that the Vietcon were noble freedom fighters.

Someone would have to provide a scanned image of his notes in a script before I'll buy that. Even in that link provided George doesn't say anything of that sort, and that was a comment he made in 2005...

You're right - this may have just been something he said at Cannes to appeal to the local crowd at that time in order to have a better chance at winning the award.

But he did say it. And if the Star Wars saga (I-VI) does have metaphorical reference to the Vietnam and Iraq wars, what else could the Empire possibly represent? I'm not saying we should agree with Lucas, but the US-as-the-Empire is definitely a feature of the thought content of the 1960s and 1970s.

Filming for EP I began on June 26, 1997.

Filming for EP III began on June 26, 2000.

The US action against Iraq started on 20 March 2003.

Unless Lucas has a Police Box hidden on the ranch somewhere, I find this connection a little more than hard to swallow.

C'mon man. It's fine if you disagree (I disagree with the US as the Empire), but deliberately missing the point is another thing entirely. He's not saying that he wrote the prequels with Iraq in mind. That's absurd.

Indeed. Once the text is released the author is dead. His intent has no more inherent authority than any other critic.

While I agree with you to a large extent, and wish this was still the case, presently, this is no longer the case.

And, strangely enough, we have Lucas to thank for it.

Sure, you can blame colorized movies for starting the whole affair, but Lucas has the market cornered on rewriting and overwriting himself.

As far as I'm concerned, if, as an author, you WANT your work to be a Lady Or The Tiger interpretation event, then you should be fine with every interpretation, but if that's not what you want, make your intentions obvious, or people will interpret it in ways you won't like.

Okay, so once again we have a group of new female cards, especially for the Empire.

It's my understanding from the lore (I refuse to call it fluff), that the Empire was speciesist (anti-non-human) as well as sexist in its social orientation. However, in the Empire-according-to-FFG, there are some very prominent female characters. Howlrunner is even the MVP if the 2014 championship stats are correct.

So, does this mean that the Empire is no longer sexist? Does this mean they're slightly less villanous, is it the sign of our more inclusive times, or is FFG responding to the need to make female players feel included, while simultaneously playing to the male desire to see evil female characters?

Its a complex situaion. Going by "SW Guide to Warfare" the only groups within the GE that is sexist is Imperial NAVY Officers and crew in charge that are from the Deep Core, Inner, and maybe Mid rim. The Imperial Army and Storm Trooper core is not sexist at all, they washout women more because of the brutle physical training. This all comes from Isila Drutch from the 291st Legion. Who was choosen to go to cliffside after being given a minor physical training run for three days.

I wouldnt call the Empire speciesist ether, they just have problems with people from unliked demographies. They had no problem turning humans into slaves if they came from planets that WERE CIS alligned before the GE took over. Also the Empire had no problems with Trandoshans, white Twi'leks, Umbarans, Chiss (Chiss are evolved humans so that kinda helps), Chagrians (i think) Zabraks (i think), Utapauns, and to some degree Neimoidians. I am sure there others they just have not been made up yet OR I havent heard of them, I dont read the novels.

As a side note the Umbarans were terrified by the idea the Empire would lose control of there part of space because every group in the Rebs would be coming to kick there butts.

No, it just means that the Empire considers only the very best women amongst the ones that actually try.

The women you see in the Imperial forces are only the ones who were so determined and talented that they managed to rise head and shoulders above the men in their unit and thus were promoted to high position. Notice that Howlrunner, the best swarm pilot by far, is actually a TIE Fighter pilot. TIE Fighters were never flown by elite pilots. Those were selected to fly other TIE series designs which were more advanced or more capable.

In the Empire, women were treated as being less skilled than men in almost every aspect. They would be given assignments that were carefully selected to "prove" that they were inferior to men in the hopes that they would wash out or just give up. And millions did. They couldn't handle the combined stress of the tough assignments or the constant jeering from other men. In addition, they also had to put up with coed showers and sleeping arrangements, even on starships.

Comparatively few women survived training and those that did often ended up leaving the Imperial forces. Only a select few managed to brave their environment long enough to attain any sort of status, and those women were usually considered ruthless.

Women like Admiral Daala and Isane Isard are the kind of women that survive Imperial training and service.

I completly disagree with this post. I have info that says diffrent things than you posted.

I am going to focus on your TIE Fighter point. In the Imperial NAVY only like 19% -15% of people that are tested for a fighter pilot career make it through the pilot part of the testing and the physical training is simular to the training storm troopers go through. So you wont be seeing many women in the TIE Fightercore.

The fact that Juno, Kasan Moor, and Runner were all in elite squadrons shows they werent thrown into joke jobs.

Also you cant judge a pilots skills by the craft they pilot because they do have preferences. Does the Emperors Swords (with Stele) Emperors Shields, Black Squadron, Obsidian Squadron, and Scyth Squadron have bad pilots because they chose to use TIE Fighters at the Battle of Endor?

What about the 181st when Fels was the CAG? They stuck with TIE Interceptors and had little to no mods unlike most elite deployments that do mod there craft? Do the 181st have bad pilots when Fel was around because they didnt use TIE Avengers, and TIE Defenders?

ps Juno was in the elite Black 8 squadron and Kason Moor was in the elite 128th TIE Interceptor Squadron.

This is clearly a very important topic, but there are far more pressing issues that we should be attending to. For example, why is there only one black guy in the whole Star War universe? Not counting Grizz Frix, whose death was only slightly less spectacular than Arvel Crynyd's, or the poor guy who lent his voice talent to Jar Jar.

Hey dont forget the Naboo Captain in Ep 1, the slave troops used by Jabba, some of the Rebel Endor Commandos and that one X-Wing pilot that became one with the aniverse after getting to close to that SDII shield generator.

My favorite Black character in SW has to be "Grand Admiral Nial Declann" he was the only Grand Admiral to be a "Dark Side Adept."

The original Star Wars trilogy was filmed in the late 70s and early 80s - a time not noted for equality and fairness. Despite equal rights movements, prejudice against women and non-whites was still pretty widespread and normalised - to a lesser extent, it still is today. See the female characters on the cards? All attractive, all slim, all wearing fairly tight costumes. All illustrated by men, I'd be willing to bet.

In the United States armed forces they have a strict fitness code and the clothing can be snug. What I am trying to say it actully is more realistic to see Imperial women the way you pointed out than the way some Imperial male officers have like the commanding officer of the 37th before Fel takes over. He is very over weight.

C'mon man. It's fine if you disagree (I disagree with the US as the Empire), but deliberately missing the point is another thing entirely. He's not saying that he wrote the prequels with Iraq in mind. That's absurd.

It's not a point of agreement or disagreement, it's just about time.

The point at issue, if I'm following things here, is whether or not Lucas meant for the prequels to be commentary on post 9/11 events. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with him doing as much, I'm just saying it's impossible for them to be as much because of time.

If he made them and then drew parallels between the two, that's fine. I did as much myself.

But they can't be commentary since they came afterwards. That's all I'm saying.

But they can't be commentary since they came afterwards. That's all I'm saying.

Right, but that is beyond obvious. For something to be allegory does not mean that it has to be intended as such. Lucas (nor anyone here) doesn't seem to be making the point that the PT was intended to be commentary on Iraq.

It's the contention that the OT was written with an amalgam of WWII and Vietnam in mind. I've certainly always seen the WWII allegory. The Vietnam one is new to me, but it's entirely plausible.

But, all that is a tangent upon a tangent. In the meantime Black Knight Leader is trying to get us back on topic.

I completly disagree with this post. I have info that says diffrent things than you posted.

Okay, but are your sources of a more latter-day vintage? If so, does it matter that your more recent sources contradict earlier sources, on which Millennium Falsehood's interpretation may be based?

The question is if the EU portrayed the Empire as sexist in the late 80s/early 90s as opposed to this past decade, where it looks like the Empire is portrayed as more inclusive.

But they can't be commentary since they came afterwards. That's all I'm saying.

Right, but that is beyond obvious. For something to be allegory does not mean that it has to be intended as such.

But, all that is a tangent upon a tangent. In the meantime Black Knight Leader is trying to get us back on topic.

But, according to what was said earlier, Lucas said it was commentary; not allegory.

I completly disagree with this post. I have info that says diffrent things than you posted.

Okay, but are your sources of a more latter-day vintage? If so, does it matter that your more recent sources contradict earlier sources, on which Millennium Falsehood's interpretation may be based?

The question is if the EU portrayed the Empire as sexist in the late 80s/early 90s as opposed to this past decade, where it looks like the Empire is portrayed as more inclusive.

I was about to say something similar. Sure the EU expands upon the "speciesim", but was it there, or more correctly, was it intended to be there, in the movies.

I'd consult the novelization of EP IV if I had it with me. I'm at work and it's at home.

But I remember the author going on about Palpatine for a bit. He talked about his rise to power and so forth, and it certainly mirrored that of Germany in the 30s. I do remember, somewhere in my reading, seeing something outright stated about the "speciesim", but I don't know if it's there or not.

AND I don't know if everyone would accept the novel as "canon" or whatever as it relates to what we saw on screen.

Okay, but are your sources of a more latter-day vintage? If so, does it matter that your more recent sources contradict earlier sources, on which Millennium Falsehood's interpretation may be based?

The question is if the EU portrayed the Empire as sexist in the late 80s/early 90s as opposed to this past decade, where it looks like the Empire is portrayed as more inclusive.

Its new, the sources I used, but I think he used some bad logic as well. One being that if Imperials are not flying TIE Avengers or Defenders then then are in a averge or baf squadron. I got old refrences and real world examples showing otherwise.

The other point he made was that the whole Imperial military is sexist just because female character that have only ever been in the NAVY have had bad experiences.

I dont think any Female Imp Army or Stormys have existed until recently to show examples of how those branches function with women in them.