SJWs....crying that a fictional universe's opressive empire might be sexist? What is this, Tumblr?

The discussion has evolved beyond that, to encompass the elements of the EU that better illustrated the standings of both factions. You are correct, analyzing the movies is a bit silly. For all we know castings unions and contracts and other such behind the scenes could have had as much to do with the female to male ratio as an implied or expressed philosophy.

And yet half the comments are about the movies. It seems a valid point to bring up.

Well, it's the movies that we all recognize in common. For the rest, many here seem to get their EU from various video games and/or various novels and/or various RPGs. As such, we - as a community - only really have those movies that crosses the different understandings of the SWU.

Judging a trio of movies from the late 70's early 80's based on modern progressivism is an effort in futility. And more than a little misguided.

Yes. But that's not what we're doing.

It really is. Leia was progressive for the time period all on her own. I mean, she fought back, had attitude, and quite clearly did not belong in the Kitchen. Saying that the Rebellion might be sexist or the movies racist because casting choices from the time period were not up to snuff for Modern PC standards is exactly what I mentioned.

My original question regarded the in-universe sexism, not the RW sexism that the movie portrayed. I totally agree with you that SW was progressive in its time, and I'm not trying to take away with that. I'm perfectly fine discussing that subject, but it's not the subject that I introduced, nor do I think that this is what most of the people discussing in this thread have diverted from.

Are you trying to defend something that isn't actually under attack, just because you love it so much?

SJWs....crying that a fictional universe's opressive empire might be sexist? What is this, Tumblr?

No, we're crying that it's no longer sexist. Please read the title.

SJWs....crying that a fictional universe's opressive empire might be sexist? What is this, Tumblr?

The internet is officially old.

There are people posting in forums who have never seen Clerks.

Or maybe it's just me that is officially old.

The discussion has evolved beyond that, to encompass the elements of the EU that better illustrated the standings of both factions. You are correct, analyzing the movies is a bit silly. For all we know castings unions and contracts and other such behind the scenes could have had as much to do with the female to male ratio as an implied or expressed philosophy.

And yet half the comments are about the movies. It seems a valid point to bring up.

Well, it's the movies that we all recognize in common. For the rest, many here seem to get their EU from various video games and/or various novels and/or various RPGs. As such, we - as a community - only really have those movies that crosses the different understandings of the SWU.

Judging a trio of movies from the late 70's early 80's based on modern progressivism is an effort in futility. And more than a little misguided.

Yes. But that's not what we're doing.

It really is. Leia was progressive for the time period all on her own. I mean, she fought back, had attitude, and quite clearly did not belong in the Kitchen. Saying that the Rebellion might be sexist or the movies racist because casting choices from the time period were not up to snuff for Modern PC standards is exactly what I mentioned.

My original question regarded the in-universe sexism, not the RW sexism that the movie portrayed. I totally agree with you that SW was progressive in its time, and I'm not trying to take away with that. I'm perfectly fine discussing that subject, but it's not the subject that I introduced, nor do I think that this is what most of the people discussing in this thread have diverted from.

Are you trying to defend something that isn't actually under attack, just because you love it so much?

Pick different avatars, Dudes!

All I'm seeing is one guy arguing with himself!!

Pick different avatars, Dudes!

All I'm seeing is one guy arguing with himself!!

Pick different avatars, Dudes!

All I'm seeing is one guy arguing with himself!!

Shoosh. R2 is awesome.

What I said.

Err. what he said!

Believe me, if they would allow me to upload my crusty old Duro navigator picture, I certainly would.

Pick different avatars, Dudes!

All I'm seeing is one guy arguing with himself!!

Shoosh. R2 is awesome.

Pick different avatars, Dudes!

All I'm seeing is one guy arguing with himself!!

Shoosh. R2 is awesome.

What I said.

Err. what he said!

My love for R2 goes back to when my sister gave a ceramic R2 night light that she painted to me sometime after 77.

I was going to pick the avatar you guys have until I saw how many people had it.

It's too bad you can't do customs on this site.

This is clearly a very important topic, but there are far more pressing issues that we should be attending to. For example, why is there only one black guy in the whole Star War universe? Not counting Grizz Frix, whose death was only slightly less spectacular than Arvel Crynyd's, or the poor guy who lent his voice talent to Jar Jar.

Clearly in that universe a long time ago in a galaxy far far away didn't have the same evolutionary chain of changes in amounts of melanin midichlorians, causing darker skin color to be a rarity. No racism there, there are just fewer dark skinned people. Just look to the desert planet of Tatooine where the non farming, nomadic tusken raiders have pretty much completely covered their skin to avoid sunburn.

Responding to Wonder: Yeah. And zero Asians of any sort. Not even ass-kicking, racist-stereotype-fulfillment Jedi.

Oh and basically only 1 FFG card ever. Lando.

Responding to Ravncat: You probably meant that as a joke. I hope you did. I also would like you to know its not very funny. Actually, its not funny at all.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_L_4_c-IE6nQ/S4MiZScCWjI/AAAAAAAAAeU/uilYrNNncxA/s800/Picture%201.png

Otherwise, the rogue squadron books underline the sexism and racism heavily, they called it the Non-huMan policy.

Finally, it wasn't just the Hollywood of yesteryear that was horribly sexist. Very few movies pass the Benchdel test.

Would you guys say the Imperial Navy had a strict apar-TIE-d policy?

I also have to point out that most of the views (stories, comics, etc...) are from the point of view from the Empire's opponents (mainly as the "new"-"republic" scum, rebel scum and Jedi anarchists).

Would you guys say the Imperial Navy had a strict apar-TIE-d policy?

Hmm.

There's a "Like This" button, but there isn't a "Groan" or "Throw Rubber Chicken" button.

Does that seem right to you?

This is clearly a very important topic, but there are far more pressing issues that we should be attending to. For example, why is there only one black guy in the whole Star War universe? Not counting Grizz Frix, whose death was only slightly less spectacular than Arvel Crynyd's, or the poor guy who lent his voice talent to Jar Jar.

Clearly in that universe a long time ago in a galaxy far far away didn't have the same evolutionary chain of changes in amounts of melanin midichlorians, causing darker skin color to be a rarity. No racism there, there are just fewer dark skinned people. Just look to the desert planet of Tatooine where the non farming, nomadic tusken raiders have pretty much completely covered their skin to avoid sunburn.

Responding to Wonder: Yeah. And zero Asians of any sort. Not even ass-kicking, racist-stereotype-fulfillment Jedi.

Oh and basically only 1 FFG card ever. Lando.

Responding to Ravncat: You probably meant that as a joke. I hope you did. I also would like you to know its not very funny. Actually, its not funny at all.

I believe one of the Y wing pilots in episode IV was Asian. He did not live long.http://lh3.ggpht.com/_L_4_c-IE6nQ/S4MiZScCWjI/AAAAAAAAAeU/uilYrNNncxA/s800/Picture%201.png

Otherwise, the rogue squadron books underline the sexism and racism heavily, they called it the Non-huMan policy.

Finally, it wasn't just the Hollywood of yesteryear that was horribly sexist. Very few movies pass the Benchdel test.

While you're certainly right that modern aren't any better, the Bechdel test is horrible. It passes "Baby Got Back."

Would you guys say the Imperial Navy had a strict apar-TIE-d policy?

Hmm.

There's a "Like This" button, but there isn't a "Groan" or "Throw Rubber Chicken" button.

Does that seem right to you?

You could always do this:

This is clearly a very important topic, but there are far more pressing issues that we should be attending to. For example, why is there only one black guy in the whole Star War universe? Not counting Grizz Frix, whose death was only slightly less spectacular than Arvel Crynyd's, or the poor guy who lent his voice talent to Jar Jar.

Clearly in that universe a long time ago in a galaxy far far away didn't have the same evolutionary chain of changes in amounts of melanin midichlorians, causing darker skin color to be a rarity. No racism there, there are just fewer dark skinned people. Just look to the desert planet of Tatooine where the non farming, nomadic tusken raiders have pretty much completely covered their skin to avoid sunburn.

Responding to Wonder: Yeah. And zero Asians of any sort. Not even ass-kicking, racist-stereotype-fulfillment Jedi.

Oh and basically only 1 FFG card ever. Lando.

Responding to Ravncat: You probably meant that as a joke. I hope you did. I also would like you to know its not very funny. Actually, its not funny at all.

I believe one of the Y wing pilots in episode IV was Asian. He did not live long.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_L_4_c-IE6nQ/S4MiZScCWjI/AAAAAAAAAeU/uilYrNNncxA/s800/Picture%201.png

Otherwise, the rogue squadron books underline the sexism and racism heavily, they called it the Non-huMan policy.

Finally, it wasn't just the Hollywood of yesteryear that was horribly sexist. Very few movies pass the Benchdel test.

I'll read that as Asians meant to die in white movies. =P A little tongue in cheek there.

Yes, a lot of the problem is also that the EU heavily was created within that time and was even less interested in not being racist and sexist and mostly made it worse. That's an common reason why a lot of women and minorities don't tend to enjoy the EU stuff that much either.

--

Also, sorry to Ravncat. I didn't mean to come off as harshly as I did, looking back in retrospect. Was having an off-day back there. Though I do have to say that type of talk is too often heard in a serious tone.

Both Sexism and Racism (Humanism? Specisism?) may not be explicitly mentioned in the movies, but are rather heavily implied. There are neither aliens nor woman represented visually in the films amongst the empire (to my recollection), while in the first film alone the rebels have several powerful woman, and at the least a more open attitude towards aliens. If I had to guess, I'd imagine that this was a stratagem to further darken the empire, along with the facelessness exhibited by solider and pilot alike, and the lack of any real.... sympathetic characters, Vader in ROTJ aside.

These attitudes began to vary from glossed over to outright evolved past as the EU went along, however. At least that is the impression I have, I'll admit its been a while on much of the books, so I could be off.

Leia was the only powerful woman from the first film, we got a 2nd in RotJ. Not really much in the way of aliens in the military either. The Mon Cals and their cruiser and Nien Numb in the Falcon. I don't recall seeing any more than that. Maybe the rebellion is just as specist and sexist as the empire.

Prune Face!

How could you forget Prune Face, you racist!

It's your toner, probably...

I've always thought that Asian pilot looked like George Takai. He's the one who says "There's too many of them" and it sure sounds like Takai's voice.

really guys why are u or we discussing empire being sexist or not ? i for myself do not care if theres a man or a women pictured on the card, the only thing i care about is the text with the ability it grands me One-Eyed -Devil out.

This is clearly a very important topic, but there are far more pressing issues that we should be attending to. For example, why is there only one black guy in the whole Star War universe? Not counting Grizz Frix, whose death was only slightly less spectacular than Arvel Crynyd's, or the poor guy who lent his voice talent to Jar Jar.

Clearly in that universe a long time ago in a galaxy far far away didn't have the same evolutionary chain of changes in amounts of melanin midichlorians, causing darker skin color to be a rarity. No racism there, there are just fewer dark skinned people. Just look to the desert planet of Tatooine where the non farming, nomadic tusken raiders have pretty much completely covered their skin to avoid sunburn.

Responding to Wonder: Yeah. And zero Asians of any sort. Not even ass-kicking, racist-stereotype-fulfillment Jedi.

Oh and basically only 1 FFG card ever. Lando.

Responding to Ravncat: You probably meant that as a joke. I hope you did. I also would like you to know its not very funny. Actually, its not funny at all.

I believe one of the Y wing pilots in episode IV was Asian. He did not live long.http://lh3.ggpht.com/_L_4_c-IE6nQ/S4MiZScCWjI/AAAAAAAAAeU/uilYrNNncxA/s800/Picture%201.png

Otherwise, the rogue squadron books underline the sexism and racism heavily, they called it the Non-huMan policy.

Finally, it wasn't just the Hollywood of yesteryear that was horribly sexist. Very few movies pass the Benchdel test.

While you're certainly right that modern aren't any better, the Bechdel test is horrible. It passes "Baby Got Back."

Judging a trio of movies from the late 70's early 80's based on modern progressivism is an effort in futility. And more than a little misguided.

Agreed. As an added bit of evidence I just stumbled onto on Wookiepedia, one of the A-Wing pilots in return of the jedi was played by a woman, but her one line was a dub from some guy. Interesting, no?

Judging a trio of movies from the late 70's early 80's based on modern progressivism is an effort in futility. And more than a little misguided.

Agreed. As an added bit of evidence I just stumbled onto on Wookiepedia, one of the A-Wing pilots in return of the jedi was played by a woman, but her one line was a dub from some guy. Interesting, no?

EDIT: Double posted. Darn. How do I delete this?

This is clearly a very important topic, but there are far more pressing issues that we should be attending to. For example, why is there only one black guy in the whole Star War universe? Not counting Grizz Frix, whose death was only slightly less spectacular than Arvel Crynyd's, or the poor guy who lent his voice talent to Jar Jar.

Clearly in that universe a long time ago in a galaxy far far away didn't have the same evolutionary chain of changes in amounts of melanin midichlorians, causing darker skin color to be a rarity. No racism there, there are just fewer dark skinned people. Just look to the desert planet of Tatooine where the non farming, nomadic tusken raiders have pretty much completely covered their skin to avoid sunburn.

Responding to Wonder: Yeah. And zero Asians of any sort. Not even ass-kicking, racist-stereotype-fulfillment Jedi.

Oh and basically only 1 FFG card ever. Lando.

Responding to Ravncat: You probably meant that as a joke. I hope you did. I also would like you to know its not very funny. Actually, its not funny at all.

I believe one of the Y wing pilots in episode IV was Asian. He did not live long.http://lh3.ggpht.com/_L_4_c-IE6nQ/S4MiZScCWjI/AAAAAAAAAeU/uilYrNNncxA/s800/Picture%201.png

Otherwise, the rogue squadron books underline the sexism and racism heavily, they called it the Non-huMan policy.

Finally, it wasn't just the Hollywood of yesteryear that was horribly sexist. Very few movies pass the Benchdel test.

While you're certainly right that modern aren't any better, the Bechdel test is horrible. It passes "Baby Got Back."

Agreed. The Bechdel test is idiocy. I can name some amazing and incredibly non-sexist stories that fail the test simply because they are through the eyes of one dude. You can see the segregation of the empire very clearly throughout the films. It's not subtle. It's meant to remind you of Nazis. (Which makes the number of old british men shocking, and Vader being voiced by James Earl Jones hilarious.) The movies themselves, Leia's inability to wear a bra aside, were progressive for their time, even if they aren't now.

I've never heard of this test, or any of the related tests before this.

They are all idiocy.

If I had any of these tests regulating what I can and can't watch, read, or otherwise enjoy, I'd be living a seriously limited existence.

I'll never understand the need of large numbers of people to find "someone like me" in every bit of media they consume.

If I followed their example, I'd never have enjoyed Alien(s), Hunger Games, or any number of other stories and properties.

People certainly limit themselves with the ways they label themselves.

There is a good chance the detention officer on the death star didn't know what a wookie looks like or even is.

Wookiee's were a huge part of the slave labor in the Empire, so he knew what one was.

Where did they point that out in the movie?

My whole point is bad writing took casting decisions in the 70's and conflated that into "see how evil the empire is and how good the rebels are? Racists!"