Okay, so once again we have a group of new female cards, especially for the Empire.

It's my understanding from the lore (I refuse to call it fluff), that the Empire was speciesist (anti-non-human) as well as sexist in its social orientation. However, in the Empire-according-to-FFG, there are some very prominent female characters. Howlrunner is even the MVP if the 2014 championship stats are correct.

So, does this mean that the Empire is no longer sexist? Does this mean they're slightly less villanous, is it the sign of our more inclusive times, or is FFG responding to the need to make female players feel included, while simultaneously playing to the male desire to see evil female characters?

I always thought they were more xenophobic than sexist, but maybe back in the 70's when the original trilogy was made there wasn't as much equal employment opportunity, especially in the military.

No, it just means that the Empire considers only the very best women amongst the ones that actually try.

The women you see in the Imperial forces are only the ones who were so determined and talented that they managed to rise head and shoulders above the men in their unit and thus were promoted to high position. Notice that Howlrunner, the best swarm pilot by far, is actually a TIE Fighter pilot. TIE Fighters were never flown by elite pilots. Those were selected to fly other TIE series designs which were more advanced or more capable.

In the Empire, women were treated as being less skilled than men in almost every aspect. They would be given assignments that were carefully selected to "prove" that they were inferior to men in the hopes that they would wash out or just give up. And millions did. They couldn't handle the combined stress of the tough assignments or the constant jeering from other men. In addition, they also had to put up with coed showers and sleeping arrangements, even on starships.

Comparatively few women survived training and those that did often ended up leaving the Imperial forces. Only a select few managed to brave their environment long enough to attain any sort of status, and those women were usually considered ruthless.

Women like Admiral Daala and Isane Isard are the kind of women that survive Imperial training and service.

Well (hopefully) obviously, whatever FFG does has no effect on the state of the Star Wars universe, even before the canon reformation.

FFG isn't trying to present the empire as anything other than what it is, not trying to pander to people looking for equality in their media or anything else.

They're just including popular characters from the EU that happen to also be female.

You're reading to much into this in my opinion.

I always thought they were more xenophobic than sexist, but maybe back in the 70's when the original trilogy was made there wasn't as much equal employment opportunity, especially in the military.

There are quite a few EU sources that talk about the Empire's sexism. Natasi Daala, for example, had to cozy up to Tarkin in order to make rank. There's more, but I don't have the time for a literature review.

Well (hopefully) obviously, whatever FFG does has no effect on the state of the Star Wars universe, even before the canon reformation.

Why do you say that? There's a lot of affect from computer games and comics on the SWU-EU. Why not this game?

You're reading to much into this in my opinion.

I'm wondering how I could be reading too much into it. Either FFG has a thought behind it or they don't. Either way, I think it's significant from a social science point of view. Even if they're not thinking about it (which I highly doubt - though they would probably deny that they are) then it reflects the degree to which gender issues are internalized in their designs. That's significant on its own for me.

I hope you're not saying that I'm reading too much into it just in order to pooh-pooh my question because it's not a question you're confortable contemplating.

I don't think much has changed really. The females we see have been there a long, long time. Mara Jade was from the Heir to the Empire series for example.

Fleet Officer I think mostly just FFG reusing art that works for that card. But it's possible they want to include a few more women.

That all said, you still have the vast majority of Imperial forces being male.

As has been said, what women in the empire DO manage to achieve decent status tend to be VERY good at what they do. Therefore they tend to get stories that mention them because they are exceptional.

I also seem to recall that when admiral Daala was (briefly) running what was left of the empire, that she instituted deliberate policies to reduce the sexism (and specism, I think) in the imperial remnant. Policies that were continued by her successor Paelleon, if I am remembering the book correctly.

Star Wars in general is fairly sexist.

In the original trilogy, there' Leia Organa, Aunt Beru, Mon Mothma, and a bunch of exotic dancers. Total.

I do not recall the Empire ever being referred to as Sexist in the EU, though.

Also, you better not be hating on Mara Jade's inclusion.
Before she became Mrs. Skywalker, she was Emperor Palpatine's no. 1 assassin!

Yeah, to Palpatine sending Vader was the Carrot. She was the Stick.

Star Wars in general is fairly sexist.

In the original trilogy, there' Leia Organa, Aunt Beru, Mon Mothma, and a bunch of exotic dancers. Total.

Well, I don't think that's all that remarkable, given the time in which it was produced. I'm curious what the new trilogy will say about our time. Given that there's already been hubbub about it, I can imagine that JJ will be sensitive to it.

I do not recall the Empire ever being referred to as Sexist in the EU, though.

Please don't make me do the literature review. I'm confident that I can prove my point, but I'm spending too much time on this forum not doing my real job as it is!! Somebody help me out here.

Also, you better not be hating on Mara Jade's inclusion.

Oh, I ain't hatin'!! I love me some Mara Jade, and have since I was a teen. (Why? Because I was a teen.)

No, I'm just wondering what it means as our conception of the Empire. I'm not trying to stand on a soap box.

you know what i would like to see?

do to the xenomorphobic empire, a cool tournament prize in the form of a wookie scalp would be cool. a special imperial only tournament,

then they could have a special rebel only tournament and the prize would be a box of Ackbar cereal "IT'S A TRAP!"

Empire was sexist in the early EU. It's just xenophobic in later EU.

You're reading to much into this in my opinion.

I'm wondering how I could be reading too much into it. Either FFG has a thought behind it or they don't. Either way, I think it's significant from a social science point of view. Even if they're not thinking about it (which I highly doubt - though they would probably deny that they are) then it reflects the degree to which gender issues are internalized in their designs. That's significant on its own for me.

Two sets of decisions are involved: someone chose to design upgrades that explicitly depict women (e.g. Mara and Isard), and someone else chose art to represent ostensibly gender-blind upgrades like the Fleet Officer.

EDIT: that is, in both cases, there were other decisions that could have been made, which means these aren't random choices but the endpoint of a deliberate process.

I've never run the Empire in games as being xenophobic or sexist. It's a tyrannical government that blows up planets to make a point, they are evil enough with out the social justice commentary.

Two sets of decisions are involved: someone chose to design upgrades that explicitly depict women (e.g. Mara and Isard), and someone else chose art to represent ostensibly gender-blind upgrades like the Fleet Officer.

I think we were bound to get Mara Jade. I just wasn't sure in what form.

Yes, it's the Fleet Officer who got my mind cogitating. Given that every other fleet officer ever depicted (exception: Daala) is male, and that the EU makes mention of sexism being a part of the regime, I thought it was noteworthy. The Fleet Officer card (no name; no dot) suggests that it's normal for there to be a woman in that role.

So, that's at odds with the theory so many above have offered: that females are special characters because they had to overcome so much more to be there they are.

EDIT: that is, in both cases, there were other decisions that could have been made, which means these aren't random choices but the endpoint of a deliberate process.

Yes, it was a deliberative process, but it might have been made for reasons other than social balance (or less imbalance).

I'm wondering if I should be happy with the justice (and the fact that I think women in Imperial uniform are hot), or if I should want the Empire to be as sexist as I always thought it was.

I think I'll go with happy.

I've never run the Empire in games as being xenophobic or sexist. It's a tyrannical government that blows up planets to make a point, they are evil enough with out the social justice commentary.

Sure, but that social commentary was there. I didn't realize there was an early EU and a later EU Lagomorphia where the balance shifted. My greater exposure to the early EU recalls explicit anti-alien and anti-women bias in the Empire.

YMMV in your own games of course.

I don't think depicting social justice questions as part of the SWU is necessarily a part of a soap box, as the modeling of RW questions in a fictional universe. To do otherwise is to suggest that humans in that other world are fundamentally different than in our own. The SWU was not an attempt at depicting a more perfect future society the way Star Trek was. It was the depiction of a grungy spacefaring society. The more social injustice, the more grungy that society appears.

I'm pretty sure that there are way more imperial women in this game than rebel ones... um... Rebels have what? 2?

I'm pretty sure that there are way more imperial women in this game than rebel ones... um... Rebels have what? 2?

Aha! The tide has turned.

Women for the Empire, unite! All you have to lose is your sexist rebel chains.

(But the rebels have got women in actual leadership positions)

Silence!

Empire was sexist in the early EU. It's just xenophobic in later EU.

If you go late enough in the EU they shed sexism and xenophobia. For the time period we're playing in, say within 10 years of the battle of Endor, according the the sources we have (the now non-canon EU literature), it's made very clear that Imperial culture is sexist and xenophobic. But more xenophobic than sexist.

There are exceptions, but these are exceptions that actually prove the rule, in that they had to overcome the culture of the Imperial Navy to reach their positions by being exceptionally cunning and ruthless. Ysanne Isard and Admiral Thrawn are perfect examples of this. A key component of their back stories is their rise despite a human-male dominated military culture.

It IS interesting to see so many female faces in this imperial expansion. Coincidence? I think not, but there is of course no way to confirm this at the moment.

Two sets of decisions are involved: someone chose to design upgrades that explicitly depict women (e.g. Mara and Isard), and someone else chose art to represent ostensibly gender-blind upgrades like the Fleet Officer.

I think we were bound to get Mara Jade. I just wasn't sure in what form.

Yes, it's the Fleet Officer who got my mind cogitating. Given that every other fleet officer ever depicted (exception: Daala) is male, and that the EU makes mention of sexism being a part of the regime, I thought it was noteworthy. The Fleet Officer card (no name; no dot) suggests that it's normal for there to be a woman in that role.

So, that's at odds with the theory so many above have offered: that females are special characters because they had to overcome so much more to be there they are.

This is a pretty good point. Given how plainly the sexism and xenophobia is laid out in the EU literature, I wouldn't conclude that the Empire is an Equal Opportunity employer from this one card, but it is certainly an interesting choice from FFG.

They might be feeling motivated to make the game in general more female-friendly, (which is not a bad idea), and they may be willing to overlook the explicit sexism of the Empire in the EU to do so.

They're giving the rebels a run for their money on gender equality (both sides aren't doing that great).

Empire was sexist in the early EU. It's just xenophobic in later EU.

If you go late enough in the EU they shed sexism and xenophobia. For the time period we're playing in, say within 10 years of the battle of Endor, according the the sources we have (the now non-canon EU literature), it's made very clear that Imperial culture is sexist and xenophobic. But more xenophobic than sexist.

I took Lagomorphia's early/later as referring to RW time - the EU of the late 80s/early 90s, as opposed to the EU of the 2000s.

Was my assumption presumptious?

Empire was sexist in the early EU. It's just xenophobic in later EU.

If you go late enough in the EU they shed sexism and xenophobia. For the time period we're playing in, say within 10 years of the battle of Endor, according the the sources we have (the now non-canon EU literature), it's made very clear that Imperial culture is sexist and xenophobic. But more xenophobic than sexist.

I took Lagomorphia's early/later as referring to RW time - the EU of the late 80s/early 90s, as opposed to the EU of the 2000s.

Was my assumption presumptious?

I was talking about EU set about 140 years after the first death star was blown up (some comics have been written in this far future era). You can see stuff like non-human stormtroopers if you go that far. In the mainstream EU, the empire does reform a bit a couple decades after the OT, but I'm not sure they're very progressive in that time.

I'm not sure if the depiction of the Imperial culture changes appreciably based on real-world time of writing of the books though.

I think to consider the image of a female on one card to mean that imperial's are being represented as more gender neutral ignores the fact that not all gunners are wookiees and not all mercenary co-pilots are rodians, and that if they were the empire probably wouldn't have to many of them.

All the card image "means" is that women are not specifically barred from the role in the imp military.

I think to consider the image of a female on one card to mean that imperial's are being represented as more gender neutral ignores the fact that not all gunners are wookiees and not all mercenary co-pilots are rodians, and that if they were the empire probably wouldn't have to many of them.

Sure, but the card is supposed to be representative.

If women are discriminated against in the Imperial Navy, then it's not likely that a female officer would be representative of imperial officers.

I think even with imperial sexism as represented in the eu a female junior officer wouldn't be out of the question, less common certainly but I imagine it is more of a "glass ceiling" problem than anything.

And the imperial propaganda machine would probably stick attractive female soldiers on their recruitment posters regardless of the truth of things...

Does this mean they're slightly less villanous, is it the sign of our more inclusive times, or is FFG responding to the need to make female players feel included, while simultaneously playing to the male desire to see evil female characters?

Cite... http://m.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asphttp://m.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asp

Does this mean they're slightly less villanous, is it the sign of our more inclusive times, or is FFG responding to the need to make female players feel included, while simultaneously playing to the male desire to see evil female characters?

Um, the Empire was the good guys of the series, and Lucas went to pains to point this out. Additionally they were a meritocracy where the best of the best rise to the top and the inept rise to their greatest point of incapability and were then left gasping on the floor, while the Rebs and New Republic was ruled by a simple hereditary aristocracy.

Cite... http://m.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asphttp://m.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asp

Given the source, I have to wonder how much of it is tongue-in-cheek.

Clearly the emperor was more concerned with the best of the best leading the galaxy, that's why we put all those inferior aliens in their place, and he was leading towards a more secular culture no longer dominated by power mad religious fanatics.

Then those filthy rebels destroyed the one hope for peace in the galaxy.