Here's to Rebel scum, and the battles they have won!

Here's to Rebel colors, the colors that never run!

May the Wings of liberty never lose a feather.

Hello. So we started playing this game on Tuesday. As of today I own at least 1 of every ship in the rebellion fleet except the Headhunter and the E-Wing (only because the stores did not have them). This is not a boast; this is a data point to announce that I am hooked, tractor-beam style, into this game.

I've been a WHFB game for 15 years, owning about 500 Beastman models, so when I saw I could get into this game and get a whole fleet for like $250 AND not have to paint them I was almost besided myself.

So here is my initial impression after playing: While I love this game, I have to ask, in what universe is this game balanced? I'm sure I'm doing something wrong; I HOPE I'm doing something wrong, because Tie Fighters at half the cost of X Wings just seem to be ridiculous.

Here are the games my buddy and I have played so far, with the game results in parenthesis:

Luke vs. 2 Ties: (Imperials win, no losses)

2 Rookie X Wings, Y Wing and HWK vs. 5 Black Sqd Ties and Tie Interceptor (Imperials win, 2 models lost)

Falcon and HWK vs. ? (Rebels win; hurray for Turrets!)

200 pt. vs. 200 pt. game (Imperials win; 3 out of 9 models lost < this game was particularly demoralizing)

Garven, Luke & Wedge vs. Tie Swarm (Imperials win, but they lost 6 of 8 models, so that made me feel pretty good)

Garven, Luke & Wedge vs. Darth Vader and the 2 Imperial Aces (Rebels smoked Imperials with no lossess, huzzah!)

So I think I have learned so far that:

-Turrets are great for Rebels; we just don't seem to have the maneuverability that Imperials do to keep them in our gun sites.

-Rebel play seems to favor fewer ships with high level pilots than it does trying to "swarm". Rebels can't outswarm Imperials.

-Trigger time is key! To win this game you have to take lots of shots, which means getting lots of trigger time in, which means getting enemy in your firing arc.

Specifically with regard to the 12 pt. Tie vs. 21/23 pt. X Wing. I don't get it. In my analysis the Shooting vs. Agi is pretty much a wash, as they are always evenly matched (Range increments notwithstanding) 2 vs. 2 and 3 vs. 3. The X Wing has shields, ok, cool, but the Ties have more maneuvers they can pull off. And here's the thing, specifically, about their manuevers: Shields are great but once you lose a shield it's gone. Tie Fighters can keep evading and barrel-rolling all the time; they don't get used up.

As an exaggerated rhetorical illustration of that premise, would you rather have 10 Agi and 1 Hull or 10 Hull and 1 Agi? With 10 Agi you'll almost never be hit! I realize there is more nuance to the game than that, of course, I'm just trying to show why high Agi with no shields might be better than 2 Shields with lower Agi.

With respect to the Tie Fighters vs. the X Wing's maneuverability schema, I'm of the opinion that they are about evenly match, with perhaps a slight favor towards Tie Fighters. But the Barrel Roll actions give Ties that much needed post-maneuver movement. And the combination of 2x as many ships plus a better overall manueverability index means the Ties are getting much more trigger time and blowing through those X Wing shields faster.

So...what's the veteran experience on this? What am I doing wrong?

Rebel ships are tankier but the mistake is too often on the amount of upgrades that get packed onto them.

Rebel ships also have better synergy with abiities than Empire ships. Biggs is a good dictator for target selection against Imperial fighters so give him a try.

Empire have ace pilots that are more stand alone and rely on numbers to overwhelm their targets so their ships tend to be weaker but cheaper.

You should try flying some B-wings and some Falcons and then you'll see how powerfull the Rebels can be.

In my opion the ships are not 100% balanced but that's ok, WHFB and WH40K broke their games trying to be balanced, there are ways to to counter the swarm of ties, don't over look AstroDroids, R2 repairs shields, Moldy HWK, can store focus, and with the right build share them, ion cannons/turrets can controll enemy movement, The Bwing has a total of 10 hull and shield and can barrel roll, the new awing will come in around 13 pts if you want to rebel swarm. The balance comes from how you build your fleet, and also as you get better at manuvering. Both factions have tough builds to beat.

Welcome and have fun

Rebels rely more on the individual pilots, and have synergies between those individuals.

The Good Guys buff ALL of their pilots, not just the famous ones.
(I fly empire mostly :-p)

So the combo I found so far that I liked the best is:

Wedge Antilles with R2-F2 and Shield Upgrade: 36 Points

Luke Skywalke r with R2-D2; 32 Points

Garven Dreis with R2-D6, Veteran Instincts, and Shield Upgrade: 32 Points

I see what you mean about the synergy. I bumped up Garven's pilot level so I could choose to act before Luke. Flying at least those 2 in a tight formation meant he could always grant his used Focus to Luke, thus giving Luke two of them. Wedge is/was strong enough to handle things on his own.

I'm considering taking out Garven and putting in the HWK with Moldy Crew and the Recon Specialist. 2 Focus per round and granting one is just awesome. Do you guys generally equip the HWK with Blaster Turret, because, man those things are great when they have them equipped.

I'm considering taking out Garven and putting in the HWK with Moldy Crew and the Recon Specialist. 2 Focus per round and granting one is just awesome. Do you guys generally equip the HWK with Blaster Turret, because, man those things are great when they have them equipped.

The HWK requires a turret of some sort to be remotely worth playing.

The Blaster Turret requires a Recon Specialist or a full tank of Moldy Crow goodness. Otherwise, you're stuck with the equivalent of 3 attack dice with no action.

Kyle Katarn with a Blaster Turret requires a Recon Specialist AND the Moldy Crow title, as you're only keeping one of the two Focii from your Recon Specialist for your own attacks.

I'm considering taking out Garven and putting in the HWK with Moldy Crew and the Recon Specialist.

Have you considered running Kyle AND Garven in the same list? They're both PS6, and if Kyle gives Garven the focus token, Garven can give it back after firing, and Kyle can put it in the Moldy Crow tank for safe-keeping. The immortal Focus Token rides!

For extra fun, add "Dutch" Vander to the mix. As Kyle and Garven hand out extra Focii, "Dutch" hands out extra Target Locks. And he's ALSO PS 6!

So the combo I found so far that I liked the best is:

Wedge Antilles with R2-F2 and Shield Upgrade: 36 Points

Luke Skywalke r with R2-D2; 32 Points

Garven Dreis with R2-D6, Veteran Instincts, and Shield Upgrade: 32 Points

For extra fun, find a single point somewhere to give Luke Skywalker "Draw Their Fire".

This lets him pull a [KABLAM] result that would harm an allied ship and have it hit one of his eternally regenerating shields instead.

3 ship builds are dicey, you lose 1 ship to a bad round and your really pushing it. Uphill. That's the disadvantage of the elite rebel pilots.... And you've fallen for the rookie mistake of over-upgrading them.

Get rid of all the upgrades and you can afford another ship

3 ship builds are dicey, you lose 1 ship to a bad round and your really pushing it. Uphill. That's the disadvantage of the elite rebel pilots.... And you've fallen for the rookie mistake of over-upgrading them.

Get rid of all the upgrades and you can afford another ship

No games perfectly balanced but though rebels pay more the ability to absorb Crits with shields is nothing to sniff at, and you have some nice combos you can employ, swarms of cheap expendable ties are a signature of starwars you can't have a game like this and have a 1:1 ratio.

Now my friend plays rebels and he's won less games than me but that's mainly because I can judge where my ships will end up better than him and I usually end up on his six where he can't shake me off.

Rebels can win so keep practicing and trying new things until it clicks.

For some data points, see the 2014 Regionals thread. Statistics are the 3rd post here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/105107-2014-regionals-results/?p=1066846

In my opion the ships are not 100% balanced...

X-Wing is the best balanced game I've ever played. It takes some time to really get the nuances that make this game so deep, but the game is all in all very well balanced.

Hi Rignuth ,

Welcome aboard!

A LONG time ago I also overspent on WFB, though it seems you took it to epic proportions, just as you seem to already be doing (I'm taking it a ship at a time - as in, I have a wife, who would respond to me in in the way of ' mistakes were made ')

Anyways, I'm quite impressed by how balanced this game is, and as MajorJuggler also pointed out, the Empire does seem to have a slight edge at the tournaments. That said, it's Imperials (myself included) who are whining because we don't get a huge ship (the new Decimator is only half the way there), and people be hatin' on our swarms.

the Empire does seem to have a slight edge at the tournaments.

Last set of tournaments that they tracked it was the other way around. The Rebels were the one who won most games.

Pretty much everyone thinks one side or the other is unbalanced when they first start. But after a while everyone seems to realize that the balance is just fine, it's just a matter of learning how to fly the ships correctly.

the Empire does seem to have a slight edge at the tournaments.

Last set of tournaments that they tracked it was the other way around. The Rebels were the one who won most games.

Pretty much everyone thinks one side or the other is unbalanced when they first start. But after a while everyone seems to realize that the balance is just fine, it's just a matter of learning how to fly the ships correctly.

The new Tournament Rules grant a full win at just 12 points, which generally helps swarms avoiding going to time without a full win. Right now this only affects Imperials, but come wave 4 some Rebel Swarms may also appreciate this.

In any event, TIE Swarms are certainly seeing an uptick in success in Regionals vs. Store Championships.

Thanks for all the coments, tips and encouragement.

That link to data points provided by Major Juggler is pretty telling though, don't you guys think?

-Imperials are winning almost 3/4 of Tournaments

-Imperials represented in almost 60% of "top tier / final cut"

-Tie Fighters representing 1/3 of all ships, over 2x as much as the next prevalent ship (X Wing) and 3x as much (or more) of any and every other ship

This is not a QQ session; if it turns out Imps are better than Rebs, I can live with that and I'll still play Rebs. It's just the acknowledgement from the community (to the extent that I'll at least know "it's not just me noticing this") that one side is better than the other. I've been playing under-dogs in WHFB for 15 years with my Beastmen, so no reason things should be different now. :-)

That link to data points provided by Major Juggler is pretty telling though, don't you guys think?

No not really, not considering previous tournaments, and how they the other way around with more rebels winning then Imperials.

The Tie Swarm is a good list, and the change in tournament rules has brought a lot of ties out. But having played this game as long as I have, and others will agree with me.

Neither side is actually better. Imperials are not stronger the Rebels or visa versa.

...if it turns out Imps are better than Rebs, I can live with that and I'll still play Rebs. It's just the acknowledgement from the community (to the extent that I'll at least know "it's not just me noticing this") that one side is better than the other. I've been playing under-dogs in WHFB for 15 years with my Beastmen, so no reason things should be different now. :-)

The Rebels should be the underdogs!

But, I don't know to what extent the statistical balance will hold. I do think it's trickier to play rebels, because you have more synergies to keep track of, and that's harder to do. So, it's kind of like the Force:

"No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive," the dark side is.

...if it turns out Imps are better than Rebs, I can live with that and I'll still play Rebs. It's just the acknowledgement from the community (to the extent that I'll at least know "it's not just me noticing this") that one side is better than the other. I've been playing under-dogs in WHFB for 15 years with my Beastmen, so no reason things should be different now. :-)

The Rebels should be the underdogs!

But, I don't know to what extent the statistical balance will hold. I do think it's trickier to play rebels, because you have more synergies to keep track of, and that's harder to do. So, it's kind of like the Force:

"No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive," the dark side is.

Yes, I *totally* agree. I just want to know that up front and have it just be public knowledge. It helps ease my ego when I go to sleep at night to know "Yep, I got my butt kicked, but hey I play underdogs so it's ok :-)"

Yes, I *totally* agree. I just want to know that up front and have it just be public knowledge. It helps ease my ego when I go to sleep at night to know "Yep, I got my butt kicked, but hey I play underdogs so it's ok :-)"

I'm too new to the game to really have a definitive answer for you. I take the community here at its word that the game is amazingly balanced in a way that WFB never was. (I remember when 4th edition Skaven came out. I was fit to be tied.)

Also, I'd just be wary of people whining that their faction is being treated unfairly. The confirmation bias is strong in those ones.

... Okay, I need to stop thinking in Yoda language.

I just want to know that up front and have it just be public knowledge.

Rebels in some way can be harder to fly, but in someways easier. They have more HP's per ship, so they can take more damage. But because you have fewer ships you have to learn to use them correctly.

The Imperial player on the other hand, can absorb losses better, losing 1 tie when you have 7 or 8 isn't that big of a deal. But it can also be tricky to fly a good swarm.

The recessionals seem to be a little bit slanted towards Imperials because there's so many more imperial lists this time around. So that's going to effect the winning %'s.

I'm not a tournament player so I can't speak on that level but otherwise I have at least 2 of every ship, 3 of most and a few extra Xs and 6 TIEs and 6 Interceptors (thank you Aces pack for the extras!). So I feel I've put some decent time in the flight simulator.

As you will find out more, each ship has a distinct main flying style where it performs best with two or three lesser styles that are good in a pinch or if you need to adapt to your opponent's squad. TIEs do best as a wolfpack swarm that sticks together to focus fire and benefit from Howlrunner's dice reroll ability, but they can also be effective blockers if you need to stop someone from taking actions or denying firing arcs. Interceptors are best as Space-Ninja-Assassins with Push the Limit to get in close, maneuver out of firing arcs and blast away with 4 dice without being shot at. Against turrets, you would generally do better to use their speed to stay at range 3 and snipe when you can rather than forcing the fight. Bombers are a little pricey for what you get but with the right load out and some support from Jonus they can make a devastating alpha strike, durable enough to last even if they don't fire first. Don't discount their maneuver dial either, they can do certain maneuvers that other TIE varieties can't.

X-Wings are the all-terrain workhorse, reasonably well suited to any fight but not an expert specialist at any one thing in particular. Their variety of pilot abilities really shine though. Y-Wings are the turreted tanks that can take punishment but can't maneuver that well. Give them a turret and find a spot that you can continually take 2 hard turns and fly in a circle shooting anything that comes close. They are also great for busting a TIE swarm formation; hit the lead TIE with an Ion cannon and/or plow forward and force them all to bump, with 8 HP between hull and shields it can take the punishment better than other rebel ships in the same point range. The HWK trades the Y-wing's tank status for team support and synergy with it's named pilots.

Those are just examples, the rest I need more practice with to clearly define their roles better and learn their styles.