If every other game on the face of the planet is any indication, predicting future metas is difficult. A smart person would just say "let's wait and see" rather than making definitive statements.

But you have one Phantom already, so clearly you're in the know.

So you just assume that anyone flying this type of build is going to crash and lose their action?

I can say the same about the build going against it.

I can't say how it will perform against a xxbb list, but I think you maybe under estimating the Phantom's.

I don't think they would have a hard time getting behind a xxbb list. They can't move quite like the Phantom. The initial round in a lot of cases is the most important. If you get your two Phantoms behind them, and both get a shot off, chances are very likely a dead biggs.

Note they are behind, you k turn?

Kind of hard of ties are blocking your way

I just think you don't like to agree with some people for the sake of disagreeing.

At least I can say I'm not 100% certain that this will work, but I can see this getting in easily behind squads and tearing them apart

I disagree when I disagree, The Phantom, while it moves in fascinating ways, needs to be cloaking and decloaking reliably to stay out of firing arcs. Being able to do a 2 speed barrel roll on the intial approach isn't going to get you at their flank. If you work to flank with your Phantoms they're going to get shot down, and while three ties are pretty great, they cannot hold up an entire team, or hold the interest of an entire team. I can't see you managing to actually flank with both your Phantoms. One is almost certain to die the first time it decloaks, very likely before it gets to fire.

That's a pretty extreme weakness to a list as common as Bloody Daggers.

One Phantom flanking is your best option. It's a good chunk of yout fleet, just over a third. But that leaves them either chasing a third of your fleet and leaving themsleves open to the other 2/3rds or leaving themselves open to the late game murder that is the Phantom.

Two Phantoms splits your squad into 3rds that go down very very fast. Where a lone high PS phantom can arc dodge an entire fleet, yours can't. They fly like a Tie Fighter. Exactly like a tie fighter.

Phantoms are nearly just as good.

I've had great success flanking with Echo, mind you that sigmas don't move quite like echo, they can still flank.

They are not as strong as echo which is why I included both having a Recon Specialist in them. Recon Specialist works quite well on Firesprays. Add an evade for that first round of attack, and even if something is shooting at them, I highly doubt they are going to die as easily as you think.

Just as you were wrong about fitting in 3 ties, I believe you are wrong about the potency of even the low end phantoms.

I admit it's not the win all lists, but there is no such thing in this game

I don't think it'll fall as easily as you say it will.

Try flying against it with a competent player and see how well it does

Maybe you will be surprised

Maybe not, but I think you're over looking a lot of the possibilities

So you just assume that anyone flying this type of build is going to crash and lose their action?

I can say the same about the build going against it.

I can't say how it will perform against a xxbb list, but I think you maybe under estimating the Phantom's.

I don't think they would have a hard time getting behind a xxbb list. They can't move quite like the Phantom. The initial round in a lot of cases is the most important. If you get your two Phantoms behind them, and both get a shot off, chances are very likely a dead biggs.

Note they are behind, you k turn?

Kind of hard of ties are blocking your way

I just think you don't like to agree with some people for the sake of disagreeing.

At least I can say I'm not 100% certain that this will work, but I can see this getting in easily behind squads and tearing them apart

I disagree when I disagree, The Phantom, while it moves in fascinating ways, needs to be cloaking and decloaking reliably to stay out of firing arcs. Being able to do a 2 speed barrel roll on the intial approach isn't going to get you at their flank. If you work to flank with your Phantoms they're going to get shot down, and while three ties are pretty great, they cannot hold up an entire team, or hold the interest of an entire team. I can't see you managing to actually flank with both your Phantoms. One is almost certain to die the first time it decloaks, very likely before it gets to fire.

That's a pretty extreme weakness to a list as common as Bloody Daggers.

One Phantom flanking is your best option. It's a good chunk of yout fleet, just over a third. But that leaves them either chasing a third of your fleet and leaving themsleves open to the other 2/3rds or leaving themselves open to the late game murder that is the Phantom.

Two Phantoms splits your squad into 3rds that go down very very fast. Where a lone high PS phantom can arc dodge an entire fleet, yours can't. They fly like a Tie Fighter. Exactly like a tie fighter.

A wings and squints make excellent flankers.

Phantoms are nearly just as good.

I've had great success flanking with Echo, mind you that sigmas don't move quite like echo, they can still flank.

They are not as strong as echo which is why I included both having a Recon Specialist in them. Recon Specialist works quite well on Firesprays. Add an evade for that first round of attack, and even if something is shooting at them, I highly doubt they are going to die as easily as you think.

Just as you were wrong about fitting in 3 ties, I believe you are wrong about the potency of even the low end phantoms.

I admit it's not the win all lists, but there is no such thing in this game

I don't think it'll fall as easily as you say it will.

Try flying against it with a competent player and see how well it does

Maybe you will be surprised

Maybe not, but I think you're over looking a lot of the possibilities

30 points of A-Wings is a good flanking unit. Soontir Fel is a great flanker, because if he lives to the endgame he wins. 64 points of Phantoms is way too much to be a Flanking force.

One way to make your 2x Sigma and 3xAP list work is to put 1 Phantom on the flank, and the other with the 3 AP, but slightly behind and to the outside. Your opponent won't be able to turn towards your flanking Phantom if it means those 4 ships in their rear. Also, since the Sigma with the Swarm is slightly outside of the Tie group, you can easily use the 2 Bank barrel roll from decloak to the outside, then bank in, always keeping 1 range band behind the academy ties, but still in range to shoot. Even if they shoot at that range 3 Phantom and finish it off, you still can get 3 range 1 or 2 shots from the APs, not to mention that flanker's free shots. So like...

_____A__A

____P___ A_____________________ P

Or you can make sure your Phantoms engage through asteroids in such a way that the turn after they turn towards the Phantoms, they won't be able to k turn or turn to get shots for a few rounds.

Neither Phantom is directly jousting, and now your opponent has to make a hard decision.

Just some thoughts, as I am a fan of the low PS Phantom. 4 red dice at PS3 for 25pts is awesome.

make your 2x Sigma and 3xAP list work is to put 1 Phantom on the flank, and the other with the 3 AP, but slightly behind and to the outside. Your opponent won't be able to turn towards your flanking Phantom if it means those 4 ships in their rear. Also, since the Sigma with the Swarm is slightly outside of the Tie group, you can easily use the 2 Bank barrel roll from decloak to the outside, then bank in, always keeping 1 range band behind the academy ties, but still in range to shoot. Even if they shoot at that range 3 Phantom and finish it off, you still can get 3 range 1 or 2 shots from the APs, not to mention that flanker's free shots. So like...

A A

P A P

Or you can make sure your Phantoms engage through asteroids in such a way that the turn after they turn towards the Phantoms, they won't be able to k turn or turn to get shots for a few rounds.

Just some thoughts, as I am a fan of the low PS Phantom. 4 red dice at PS3 for 25pts is awesome.

But, consider in that build it will have Focus + Focus + Evade, at range 3. If you have 3 range 1or2 academy ties in your face, don't tell me you won't be tempted to shoot your 4 dice shots and take 1 out. I mean, the APs will only have focus, and the same number of defense dice. If you do the math, you will do way more damage to the AP.

Also, if you decloak properly and engage with your squad properly, it is possible that the Phantom that was with your ties will avoid at least 1 arc where as the APs are in all arcs.

I mean, yah, a Howl + ST and an AP would be nice, but then we are looking at a different kind of squad that is good against different lists. For example, having the 4 dice attacks will make you better against high agility, whereas a Howl mini swarm preys more on B wings and low agility.

Like I said before, my list won't be 3 AP and 2 loaded Sigmas, but 4 APs and 2 unloaded Sigmas. Just trying to show that it is your tactics with a squad that can make a difference.

If every other game on the face of the planet is any indication, predicting future metas is difficult. A smart person would just say "let's wait and see" rather than making definitive statements.

But you have one Phantom already, so clearly you're in the know.

This isn't a meta discussion, it's a math and positioning discussion. That doesn't take much work to figure out. I don't think two Phantoms on a squad with 3+ ties can position well enough to earn their points. They don't have Biggs to draw fire off of them for a round like the Expensive Rebel X-Wings, have comparable durability, and much Higher PS for the points. Running the Phantoms naked will work better than with 7 points of upgrades on them.

You're pretending like you know how 2-3 Phantoms are going to play out against any given list, yet you only own one, and it's too premature for there to be any meta analysis to back up your claims. I'm forced, again, to question your experience with this game.

This is likely the first 2 phantom list I'll try:

"You should be afraid of the Dark"

Sigma + Particle A + Recon x2

Dark Curse/Backstabber

AP

AP

Name is cooler with dark curse but stabber will probably draw more hate fire away from the phantoms. Should be a great learning list with the phantoms with the phantom.

Here is my problem I would want to run,

Shadow Squadron Pilot with Advanced Cloaking Device, Advanced Sensors (34pts)

Shadow Squadron Pilot with Advanced Cloaking Device, Advanced Sensors (34pts)

Leaving me with 31 points which is hard as an imp player.

Though if you run a bounty hunter with two phantoms it could be fun.

My 2x Phantom list will be called: "The Blacksmith"

Whisper + VI + ACD

Echo + VI + SPA

Delta Defender

Two hammers and an anvil.

If every other game on the face of the planet is any indication, predicting future metas is difficult. A smart person would just say "let's wait and see" rather than making definitive statements.

But you have one Phantom already, so clearly you're in the know.

This isn't a meta discussion, it's a math and positioning discussion. That doesn't take much work to figure out. I don't think two Phantoms on a squad with 3+ ties can position well enough to earn their points. They don't have Biggs to draw fire off of them for a round like the Expensive Rebel X-Wings, have comparable durability, and much Higher PS for the points. Running the Phantoms naked will work better than with 7 points of upgrades on them.

You're pretending like you know how 2-3 Phantoms are going to play out against any given list, yet you only own one, and it's too premature for there to be any meta analysis to back up your claims. I'm forced, again, to question your experience with this game.

Initial engagement.

Furball. Phantoms are ok in the furball. They can bounce around the edges like nobodies business and avoid firring arcs very well.

In the opening engagement they are a high priority target, fragile, and without regular cloaking, an easy target.

For now I see two setups that will make the most out of a Phantom.

Vet instincts/Advanced Cloak on the named Phantoms(or any Phantom with an EPT should we get more)

Advanced Sensors/Particle Generator for a more durable, less offensive Phantom. Running them without cloak can work, but not with 7 points of upgrades. Recon Spec is nice but works best on targets that will be taking a lot of attacks where it can save 4-5 damage. The Phantom doesn't live long enough to really make use of that with the low PS Advanced Sensors build. They are an expensive fragile ship. They need to be played as such. If you want a high powered cannon, run something with a Heavy laser Cannon. Don't waste the Phantoms potential.

And again. Knowing how people strategize and how ships move is not the metagame, just the game. Nothing about this game's early steps is unpredictable. Any list that can chuck out a reasonable number of red dice in a round can kill a Phantom in one round. Dual Falcons might have an issue, but a quick look at the patterns every metagame has had make it clear that Dual Falcons aside, 9 attack dice will be the minimum you see. With focus on offense that will kill a Phantom a round with ease. I mean, 3 X-Wings with no pilot abilities is the Phantoms best matchup. Any reasonable 3 X list can take out your Phantom with minimal trouble.

Knowing how people strategize and move their ships right now is the metagame.

Knowing how people strategize and move their ships right now is the metagame.

No, Knowing how they build their lists is the metagame. The way people fly. That's a function of the game rules, and is both easy to predict early on, and very easy to work out how any given ship is going to move. Phantoms are tricky, IF they are frequently cloaking and decloaking. If not, they fly like the Tie Fighter, which is a very known quantity, and take hits like an X-Wing. Another very known quantity. If he's not set up to use cloak reliably, his Phantom list will go down, and fast.

So you just assume that anyone flying this type of build is going to crash and lose their action?

I can say the same about the build going against it.

I can't say how it will perform against a xxbb list, but I think you maybe under estimating the Phantom's.

I don't think they would have a hard time getting behind a xxbb list. They can't move quite like the Phantom. The initial round in a lot of cases is the most important. If you get your two Phantoms behind them, and both get a shot off, chances are very likely a dead biggs.

Note they are behind, you k turn?

Kind of hard of ties are blocking your way

I just think you don't like to agree with some people for the sake of disagreeing.

At least I can say I'm not 100% certain that this will work, but I can see this getting in easily behind squads and tearing them apart

I disagree when I disagree, The Phantom, while it moves in fascinating ways, needs to be cloaking and decloaking reliably to stay out of firing arcs. Being able to do a 2 speed barrel roll on the intial approach isn't going to get you at their flank. If you work to flank with your Phantoms they're going to get shot down, and while three ties are pretty great, they cannot hold up an entire team, or hold the interest of an entire team. I can't see you managing to actually flank with both your Phantoms. One is almost certain to die the first time it decloaks, very likely before it gets to fire.

That's a pretty extreme weakness to a list as common as Bloody Daggers.

One Phantom flanking is your best option. It's a good chunk of yout fleet, just over a third. But that leaves them either chasing a third of your fleet and leaving themsleves open to the other 2/3rds or leaving themselves open to the late game murder that is the Phantom.

Two Phantoms splits your squad into 3rds that go down very very fast. Where a lone high PS phantom can arc dodge an entire fleet, yours can't. They fly like a Tie Fighter. Exactly like a tie fighter.

A wings and squints make excellent flankers.

Phantoms are nearly just as good.

I've had great success flanking with Echo, mind you that sigmas don't move quite like echo, they can still flank.

They are not as strong as echo which is why I included both having a Recon Specialist in them. Recon Specialist works quite well on Firesprays. Add an evade for that first round of attack, and even if something is shooting at them, I highly doubt they are going to die as easily as you think.

Just as you were wrong about fitting in 3 ties, I believe you are wrong about the potency of even the low end phantoms.

I admit it's not the win all lists, but there is no such thing in this game

I don't think it'll fall as easily as you say it will.

Try flying against it with a competent player and see how well it does

Maybe you will be surprised

Maybe not, but I think you're over looking a lot of the possibilities

They aren't flankers if they're 2/3rds of your points though. A-Wings and Squints make good flankers because they aren't as much of a threat as the rest of your squad. With Two Phantoms the rest of your squad is the flankers, and the Phantoms are your squad. Even if you split them, you're not going to manage well, as splitting into three places gives your opponent far too much control over where the intial engagement works. They close on Phantom 1, gun it down, eat the fire from your ties, but have kept themselves out of the range of your other Phantom, and then K-Turn into position to eat your other Phantom, or your ties in a joust, likely with all ships still alive, given that 3 ties struggle to take out an X-Wing alone.

30 points of A-Wings is a good flanking unit. Soontir Fel is a great flanker, because if he lives to the endgame he wins. 64 points of Phantoms is way too much to be a Flanking force.

So it doesn't matter how many points are in the group flanking. Fact of the matter is they get behind the other ships, that is considered flanking.

Hey, I'll be the first to admit that I can't say for certain how well it'll work, but I believe it has potential. To just dismiss something out right without even trying and see how it does work is kind of arrogant in afraid.

Ya, it's a few points in two Phantoms, but those points are increasing their survivability rate.

It's all in how you fly.

Hell there is a guy who won a tournament) not sure if regionals or local store), but all he had was Han in a Falcon that cost 60 some points and an awing. 2 ships and he won.

I also just finished a couple of games with my Scarlets ghost build.

I flew against 2 bwing with advanced sensors,wedge with swarm, and z95 with ion torpedoes Lt Blount.

First game I lost bad. My mistake was I miss judge an asteroid with my phantom. 2 loss with that build.

Next game I won. Wedge shot first and didn't even scratched him. With the phantomand kath, took out wedge first round.

At one point after I made a bad move, and collided into kath. No action, and he had kturn behind me.

3 target locks, plus focus, at range 3 and I survived.

There was probably 3 rounds where he had target locks on my phantom. Recon Specialistis a god send. He kept on living to fight another day.

In the end I won with 1 hull left on Kath, and only one shield down on echo.

So where you said without cloaking they go down fast. I managed even after a bad move to keep echo Alive and the was at least 2 round I could not cloak. Just how it was. I made due, and managed to get him turned around into a favorable position, which shortly there after ended the game

My point is i got caught bad with a bad move, and still lived through multiple rounds of target locks and etc. The only point of dmg was from the z wing missles.

I will admit flying Phantoms there is 0 room for error, cause like my first game, it was like running through a corn field naked back ward.

They are more resilient than you give them credit for.

After playing that game and many others, I am even more convinced that if played correctly should do well.

It may take some practice and tweaking, but I cant just out right deny it.

Maybe like one suggested, put one in with the three ties, and send the one around.

Either way your making your opponent choose who to attack and ignore. With the movement of the Phantom's getting in behind will make it hard for your opponent to choose them. If they do and they don't kill them fast can leave him open in a bad way.

All I can do is try it when I get a second.

I don't play on vassal, but I say give it a try.

I'll see how I do against my group when I get one.

I think it'll throw a lot of people off

I will admit flying Phantoms there is 0 room for error, cause like my first game, it was like running through a corn field naked back ward.

Lol! Not a great mental image, but too late now...

Knowing how people strategize and move their ships right now is the metagame.

No, Knowing how they build their lists is the metagame. The way people fly. That's a function of the game rules, and is both easy to predict early on, and very easy to work out how any given ship is going to move. Phantoms are tricky, IF they are frequently cloaking and decloaking. If not, they fly like the Tie Fighter, which is a very known quantity, and take hits like an X-Wing. Another very known quantity. If he's not set up to use cloak reliably, his Phantom list will go down, and fast.

So basically, any two lists with exactly the same ships will be played exactly the same way, by different players, every time. Because strategy doesn't extend beyond the realm of list building.

Yeah, no.

I will admit flying Phantoms there is 0 room for error, cause like my first game, it was like running through a corn field naked back ward.

Lol! Not a great mental image, but too late now...

Gentlemen, Behold! MORE CORN!

....uhh, I don't know man, not after last time...