With the basic point valve being 25 and with upgrades making it close to 30-35 would it make sense to push 2 in a list or is that too much.

What say you peoples?

You can fit Echo and Whisper with VI and ACD in a list and still get in 2 Academies to run interference and draw fire. It is very doable. Having been playing with my Phantom (double entendre... INTENDED) since Imdaar, I am not sure I would WANT to run double Phantom very often. It is a great ship, but one good one has usually been enough, so I tend to bulk up the rest of my list with a reasonable counterpart is generally dedicated to killing whatever ship may have PS to compete with my Phantom.

Why not run 4 naked phantoms.

Now you see me. Now you don't.

with only two named pilots going with 3 doesn't make much sense.

I'm going to run two Sigmas with IA and two Sabers with PtL as soon as I'm able.

Echo + VI + ACD + FCS (37)

Whisperer + VI + ACD + FCS (39)

Academy Pilot x2 (24)

= 100

Im running one that is both named guys with Advanced Cloak and Vet Instincts and a Lambda running Ion/Stress interference with 2 Tacticians.

See how it works and if not ill play with the list.

You can put two of the Sigma squadern both with SPA,Fcs, and Recon spec

Then have 3 ties.

I can't wait to get my other phantom so I can try this.

I see this list as being competitive, and something people may not expect.

Even though the Phantom's have a low pilot skill, the spa will give them a free evade for that first attack run, plus 2 focus fire attack /defend, making them all hard to hit that initial attack round, even while decloaked. Along with, that if they don't kill their target first round, next round they will be coming in with tl,and 2 focus

Plus 3 ties is enough to get in the way, and hurt.

I've also been having a lot of success with Kath,echo and dark curse. Even against Falcons /y-wings

Im running one that is both named guys with Advanced Cloak and Vet Instincts and a Lambda running Ion/Stress interference with 2 Tacticians.

See how it works and if not ill play with the list.

Yeah, been thinking about that myself. I see the Shuttle dying very quickly, but you never know.

I would only run 1. Two gives you a lot of firepower, but also takes up too much of your list.

I don't think much of the generic Phantoms right now. I haven't played with them yet, but they have to play very differently from the named phantoms and I can't say I want that.

I have to disagree with you on that.

Have two low end phantoms coming in from your flank. With 2 focus,and evade for that first attack sounds pretty nice.

That's 8 attack dice

Add 3 ties to get in your opponents way. Another 6 dice

At range 2-3 you have 14 dice.

If you lose a tie that first round, your still doing well.

Next round your Phantom will be coming in with tl,and two focus.

Just flying echo and a Firespray and one tie I've been beating 4 ship rebel builds, and 3 with a Falcon.

Having 2 Phantoms, and 3 ties should work quite well.

People have success with just a couple of interceptors. Phantoms are much better imo. Not as fast , but harder to hit, and his like a truck.

I've been really considering with my Scarlets ghost build which I've been tweaking,and had gone 5-1 or the 2 Sigma and 3 ties which I call dueling phantoms

I have to disagree with you on that.

Have two low end phantoms coming in from your flank. With 2 focus,and evade for that first attack sounds pretty nice.

That's 8 attack dice

Add 3 ties to get in your opponents way. Another 6 dice

At range 2-3 you have 14 dice.

If you lose a tie that first round, your still doing well.

Next round your Phantom will be coming in with tl,and two focus.

Just flying echo and a Firespray and one tie I've been beating 4 ship rebel builds, and 3 with a Falcon.

Having 2 Phantoms, and 3 ties should work quite well.

People have success with just a couple of interceptors. Phantoms are much better imo. Not as fast , but harder to hit, and his like a truck.

I've been really considering with my Scarlets ghost build which I've been tweaking,and had gone 5-1 or the 2 Sigma and 3 ties which I call dueling phantoms

Best case for playable setups I've managed to work out for three ties is

Two PS5 Phantoms with Advanced Sensors and Particle Generators with 3 ties.

You can't fit a good Echo or Whisper build in there very well.

Ya, that kind of the point.

They can still move fast up the board and get behind your opponent. By decloaked,and recloaking. 2 boost for decloak, plus 4 movement is a total of 8 ship lengths,which is fast as a awing.

Meanwhile 3 ties coming in from the front /side.

The Phantom's are still going to be very hard to hit.

Especially that initial round. Getting 2 focus, plus the evade. Even with two dice their survivability should be high. Plus if flown right should be very hard to get in your opponents sights. Add that they have fcs. Next round things are going to die. Hell first round things are going to die

If he is chasing the Phantom, then he is ignoring your ties which he will regret.

If he is going for your ties, you have the Phantom's.

Once the Phantom's are behind his ships they are not going to be cloaking as much, but with your Ties on the other side, be hard for him to k turn.

Even if he manages to kill one, you still have another.

You can always cloak if it was really needed to gain that extra defense,and regroup.

I really see this being competitive

Your right. It's only 17 hull. No different than my Scarlets ghost build, but it's only 3 ships, and had been doing extremely well.

Even beat a Lando,wedge w/ swarm tactics, and a rookie with it last night

I didn't get to shoot first, but still survived. Killing the Phantom is not as easy as some may think, even while decloaked

That all the more reason why I think dueling phantoms will be a beast

Ya, that kind of the point.

They can still move fast up the board and get behind your opponent. By decloaked,and reloading. 2 boost for decloak, plus 4 movement is a total of 8 ship lengths,which is fast as a awing.

Meanwhile 3 ties coming in frin the front /side.

The Phantom's are still going to be very hard to hit.

Especially that initial round. Getting 2 focus, plus the evade. Even with two dice their survivability should be high. Plus if flown right should be very hard to get in your opponents sights.

If he is chasing that, then he is ignoring your ties which he will regret.

If he is going for your ties, you have the Phantom's.

Once the Phantom's are behind his ships they are not going to be cloaking as much, but with your Ties on the other side, be hard for him to k turn.

Even if he manages to kill one, you still have another.

You can always cloak if it was really needed to gain that extra defense,and regroup.

I really see this being competitive

Your right. It's only 17 hull. No different than my Scarlets ghost build, but it's only 3 ships, and had been doing extremely well.

Even beat a Lando,wedge w/ swarm tactics, and a rookie with it last night

I didn't get to shoot first, but still survived. Killing the Phantom is not as easy as you think, even while decloaked

That all the more reason why I think dueling phantoms will be a beast

I get it, Where are you getting an evade and two focuses from?

The Stygium Particle Accelerator upgrade, and Recon spec

edit

Don't get me wrong. Any list is beatable, but if this is flown well, I believe we will see lists like this in the competitive scene.

I think it has a lot of potential.

The Stygium Particle Accelerator upgrade, and Recon spec

I don't see it working well, not with an opponent who builds competent squads.

How am I only attacking every other turn?

The Spa is there for that first and important round of attacking, and then it's there only if it is really needed

Sigma squadern pilots x2

SPA

FCS

RS

Academy pilots x3

100pts

Just as you said 3 ties is impossible?

Doesn't look it to me

I have to say that this looks to be a very competent squad.

I will admit I haven't tried it cause I only have the one phantom, but I already know my asteroid layout, starting position, and opening maneuvers for it

How am I only attacking every other turn?

The Spa is there for that first and important round of attacking, and then it's there only if it is really needed

Sigma squadern pilots x2

SPA

FCS

RS

Academy pilots x3

100pts

So you just assume that anyone flying this type of build is going to crash and lose their action?

I can say the same about the build going against it.

I can't say how it will perform against a xxbb list, but I think you maybe under estimating the Phantom's.

I don't think they would have a hard time getting behind a xxbb list. They can't move quite like the Phantom. The initial round in a lot of cases is the most important. If you get your two Phantoms behind them, and both get a shot off, chances are very likely a dead biggs.

Now they are behind, you k turn?

Kind of hard of ties are blocking your way

I just think you don't like to agree with some people for the sake of disagreeing.

I admit myself I don't know. Haven't flown it yet, but at least I can say with a straight face that this is not the list to beat all lists. But you sound so confident that this type of list will get destroyed by just about anything.

Sounds a little cocky to me

At least I can say I'm not 100% certain that this will work, but I can see this getting in easily behind squads and tearing them apart

I will run:

Sigma + Stygium Particle Accelerator

Sigma

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Or 2 x Intel Agent instead.

You don't need to cloak too often if you are already behind your opponent during the first engagement. Initial cloak will be a good start. Also, the 4 APs will clog up the space pretty well, making it hard for your opponent to turn towards the Phantoms on the flank. Cloak will mainly be used afterwards for those turns you run away, a tactic likely to employed with interceptors as well.

It is basically the same list as a 2 x RGP + PTL, 4 AP list I used to run, just no focus + evade turtling. More firepower though! Which is nice.

I might change 1 Phantom to a Doom shuttle, drop Stygium, and up 3 APs to Obsidian. That is more just my preference, though

So you just assume that anyone flying this type of build is going to crash and lose their action?

I can say the same about the build going against it.

I can't say how it will perform against a xxbb list, but I think you maybe under estimating the Phantom's.

I don't think they would have a hard time getting behind a xxbb list. They can't move quite like the Phantom. The initial round in a lot of cases is the most important. If you get your two Phantoms behind them, and both get a shot off, chances are very likely a dead biggs.

Note they are behind, you k turn?

Kind of hard of ties are blocking your way

I just think you don't like to agree with some people for the sake of disagreeing.

At least I can say I'm not 100% certain that this will work, but I can see this getting in easily behind squads and tearing them apart

That's a pretty extreme weakness to a list as common as Bloody Daggers.

One Phantom flanking is your best option. It's a good chunk of yout fleet, just over a third. But that leaves them either chasing a third of your fleet and leaving themsleves open to the other 2/3rds or leaving themselves open to the late game murder that is the Phantom.

Two Phantoms splits your squad into 3rds that go down very very fast. Where a lone high PS phantom can arc dodge an entire fleet, yours can't. They fly like a Tie Fighter. Exactly like a tie fighter.

Been playtesting Phantoms on vassal a lot, have you Aminar?

Been playtesting Phantoms on vassal a lot, have you Aminar?

I Do own one. And a tactical understanding of the game is not hard to develop. Mapping out what a general approach will look like isn't difficult. I know more than enough to know that X-Wings don't live long, and Phantoms are target 1 on everyones list due to the Firepower vs survivability quotient.

If every other game on the face of the planet is any indication, predicting future metas is difficult. A smart person would just say "let's wait and see" rather than making definitive statements.

But you have one Phantom already, so clearly you're in the know.

I have really considered this as a list:

Echo + VI + FCS + Advanced Cloaking System

And either:

Howlrunner + Swarm Tactics

Mauler + Swarm Tactics

Academy Tie

Academy Tie

Or the following:

Howlrunner

Backstabber

Darkcurse

Obsidian Squadron (to avoid Predator)

The idea would be to fly the mini swarm on one flank and Echo on the other to see which way your opponent breaks off to engage.