As an Empire player, I think it is funny, that in order to get rid of Tie swarms, they (FFG) gave the Rebels a swarm...

It won't even get rid of the TIE swarm anyway. Imperial players don't fly TIE swarms because "it kills Rebels", they fly TIE swarms because it's one of the few Imperial list that can reliably offset the inherent heads-or-tails aspect of playing the Empire.

I mean, TIE swarms have been fighting other TIE swarms since day one. Why would a Rebel swarm suddenly change their minds? The only thing that can get rid of the TIE swarm is if something better than the TIE swarm comes along.

As an Empire player, I think it is funny, that in order to get rid of Tie swarms, they (FFG) gave the Rebels a swarm…

What makes you think that's the reasoning behind the introduction of the Headhunter? There are a number of elements in the game now that are pushing back against the swarm (Assault Missiles, Flight Instructor, Predator, Blount, arguably the Defender), but I don't see the Z-95 as one of them.

I bet you are going to see alot of Rebel Z95 swarms, and I mean 5+ ship squads.

You won't. Z-95 swarms without missiles struggle with offense; Z-95 swarms with missiles are inconsistent in general and struggle against high-PS lists.

I do think we'll see a lot of 4-5 ship lists featuring 2-3 Headhunters, but to my mind that's not really a Z-95 swarm.

With wave 4, the Rebels arsenal of ships has greatly diversified. You Rebs may not be impressed and thats because you had a great list of players to begin with.

Then I guess it's a good thing I'm an X-wing Miniatures player, rather than an Imperial player or a Rebel player…?

[*]The TIE Phantom is like playing Whack-A-Mole with Piranhas.

It won't even get rid of the TIE swarm anyway. Imperial players don't fly TIE swarms because "it kills Rebels", they fly TIE swarms because it's one of the few Imperial list that can reliably offset the inherent heads-or-tails aspect of playing the Empire.

TIE swarms are consistent, yes, but they are prominent because TIE fighters are too cheap not to use, not because other options aren't viable. If you are uncomfortable with high-risk builds, you can always use something tankier like bombers, Firesprays, and soon, defenders. Of course, you could also use the other faction, but my point is that there are lots of options for Imperial lists that do not lead to "heads-or-tails" games.

It won't even get rid of the TIE swarm anyway. Imperial players don't fly TIE swarms because "it kills Rebels", they fly TIE swarms because it's one of the few Imperial list that can reliably offset the inherent heads-or-tails aspect of playing the Empire.

TIE swarms are consistent, yes, but they are prominent because TIE fighters are too cheap not to use, not because other options aren't viable. If you are uncomfortable with high-risk builds, you can always use something tankier like bombers, Firesprays, and soon, defenders. Of course, you could also use the other faction, but my point is that there are lots of options for Imperial lists that do not lead to "heads-or-tails" games.

Excluding the new wave you have Firesprays and Lambda's. Bombers may be more tanky, but they're also far easier to outmaneuver in addition to still being heads-or-tails due to the nature of ordnance in general. Other options do exist (hence "one of the few" not "the only") but TIE's are pretty heads-or-tails sensitive.

That is, after all, why swarms are so consistently present. They greatly reduce the odds of a game being effectively over in just one combat phase.

Though the unpopularity of the Lambda always amazes me. Yes, it's a ship that can barely maneuver, but if you keep it in the back or give it an engine upgrade it can get of plenty of hits in, while being a tough ship to chew through.

Bombers are easier to outmanuever than the Lambda? I think not.

Bombers are easier to outmanuever than the Lambda? I think not.

This. Their dial is no worse than an X-wing's dial, and they have barrel roll on top of that.

I have been thinking a lot about: 1 • Biggs Darklighter - R2-D6 - Decoy (28)

Nobody is talking about it but i do think that makes him hard to kill paired with an E-wing who can get an evade.

Rebels do not have howlrunner, so a rebel swarm will never be like an imperial swarm...

but z-95 in a good ship and can fill a lot of lists...

I'm very exciteed about the E-Wing !! Both the pilots have such good abilities !!

And **** !!! Corran Horn is Corran Horn !!

I have been thinking a lot about: 1 • Biggs Darklighter - R2-D6 - Decoy (28)

Nobody is talking about it but i do think that makes him hard to kill paired with an E-wing who can get an evade.

Abaht is going go be very good, I think.

The Z95 will be nice filler but I think will prove the value of dial in MJ jousting value when compared with the Tie Fighter and won't be as good of a ship in and of itself. I think that a pair of Bwings will still be better than three bandits.

So saying if is the best jousting unit in the game seems wrong to me.

They have 2 great named pilots though, and although they are not as powerful as Howlrunner (lets face it she has always been OP, something i said from day one on and got yelled at for in this very forum), they do finally offer the coubter to swarms. Cheap ships, assault missiles, Munitions failsafe. That's it. A swarm facing that will split up and give up Howlrunner bonus, or just die. That being said even while split up they can beat Z-95 with assault missiles wuite easily. Because they are much better ship for ship.

I will tell you why: evade. Against 2 firepower ships that you also outnumber, they will never be able to kill off the swarm if they evade. Evade has been criticized a lot, but against 2 firepower, nothing compares, you win the attrition, no matter what!

I still think that adding 1-2 assault missile Z-95 or at least Blount is a good addition to a rebel list to counter imperial Swarms

Abaht is going go be very good, I think.

The Z95 will be nice filler but I think will prove the value of dial in MJ jousting value when compared with the Tie Fighter and won't be as good of a ship in and of itself. I think that a pair of Bwings will still be better than three bandits.

Exactly this. The Z-95s one more hitpoint does not make up for the lost agility and evade. The Z-95 for itself is just not going to beat the generic Tie Fighter.

Have you run the numbers? The math disagrees.

• Hull with 2 dice are worth somewhere between 0.70 - 0.74 of Hull at 3 agility
• Shields with 2 dice are worth somewhere between 0.80 - 0.84 of Hull at 3 agility
• This gives the Z-95 a durability of 100% to 106% of 3 hull at 3 agility.

So at a minimum, the Z-95 will be the same durability as a TIE Fighter. The Z-95 is one PS higher so it shoots first, making its equivalent PS1 cost (11.5) actually cheaper than the Academy Pilot. If a 5+ ship Rebel Swarm of Z's/B's/Refit A's can can take out Howlrunner early, it could actually have more brute force. I didn't list X's because they're technically not quite as good jousters as the above, but BXXZZZ is also looking very potent.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/?p=1111620

Abaht is going go be very good, I think.

The Z95 will be nice filler but I think will prove the value of dial in MJ jousting value when compared with the Tie Fighter and won't be as good of a ship in and of itself. I think that a pair of Bwings will still be better than three bandits.

Exactly this. The Z-95s one more hitpoint does not make up for the lost agility and evade. The Z-95 for itself is just not going to beat the generic Tie Fighter.

Have you run the numbers? The math disagrees.

• Hull with 2 dice are worth somewhere between 0.70 - 0.74 of Hull at 3 agility
• Shields with 2 dice are worth somewhere between 0.80 - 0.84 of Hull at 3 agility
• This gives the Z-95 a durability of 100% to 106% of 3 hull at 3 agility.

So at a minimum, the Z-95 will be the same durability as a TIE Fighter. The Z-95 is one PS higher so it shoots first, making its equivalent PS1 cost (11.5) actually cheaper than the Academy Pilot. If a 5+ ship Rebel Swarm of Z's/B's/Refit A's can can take out Howlrunner early, it could actually have more brute force. I didn't list X's because they're technically not quite as good jousters as the above, but BXXZZZ is also looking very potent.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/?p=1111620

While I generally agree with the jousting efficiency model overall, its meaning can be hard to grasp for non math-wingers. I often use this table to show ship durability. The upper chart shows the average hits that will get through on each attack scenario. For this discussion, we'll ignore the bottom chart.

So, let's assume that the ship attacking has 3 attack and that it is attacking with a focus from Range 2, and that the defender either does not have a focus or has used it or plans to use it for attack.

The TIE Fighter has 3 evades. A 3 die focused attack against an unfocused TIE Fighter averages 1.217 uncancelled hits, so you divide 3 hull by 1.217 to figure, on average, how many attacks does it take to destroy a TIE Fighter. 3/1.217= 2.465, meaning it takes about 2.5 attacks, again on average. The Same 3-die focused attack against an unfocused Z95 (2 evades) yields 1.531 uncancelled hits, on average, a difference of about .3 hits. The Z95 has 4 Total HP, so: 4/1.531=2.613 attacks to destroy it. Based on this information, the Z95 IS more durable than a TIE Fighter, but only just.

Keep in mind that this represents averages, so as always the dice will be dice. I choose 3 focused dice as it is the most common attack in the game, when you combine the frequency of 3 dice at Range 2 and 2 die ships attacking from Range 1. Also doesn't factor the ship's cost, but based on this data, the Z95 is slightly better value for its cost, as it is slightly more durable and one higher in Pilot Skill

Keep in mind that this represents averages, so as always the dice will be dice. I choose 3 focused dice as it is the most common attack in the game, when you combine the frequency of 3 dice at Range 2 and 2 die ships attacking from Range 1. Also doesn't factor the ship's cost, but based on this data, the Z95 is slightly better value for its cost, as it is slightly more durable and one higher in Pilot Skill

To clarify for everyone else, my numbers above are not a head on fight of Z-95s vs TIEs. It's a general meta-game value approach. I also:

• consider the action economy with a weighted average, considering both attacker and defender chances of having focus
• consider the number of base dice attacking you, and take a weighted average
• I'm also directly computing the number of critical hits that get through, to directly compute the relative gain of having shields vs hull

the second table there has percentages of direct hits, and there is another table on the source site that adjusts the damage for critical effects. This one is just based on the dice.

Keep in mind that this represents averages, so as always the dice will be dice. I choose 3 focused dice as it is the most common attack in the game, when you combine the frequency of 3 dice at Range 2 and 2 die ships attacking from Range 1. Also doesn't factor the ship's cost, but based on this data, the Z95 is slightly better value for its cost, as it is slightly more durable and one higher in Pilot Skill

To clarify for everyone else, my numbers above are not a head on fight of Z-95s vs TIEs. It's a general meta-game value approach. I also:

• consider the action economy with a weighted average, considering both attacker and defender chances of having focus
• consider the number of base dice attacking you, and take a weighted average
• I'm also directly computing the number of critical hits that get through, to directly compute the relative gain of having shields vs hull

Bombers are easier to outmanuever than the Lambda? I think not.

Apolagies, I meant easier to outmaneuver than other TIE's.

Keep in mind that this represents averages, so as always the dice will be dice. I choose 3 focused dice as it is the most common attack in the game, when you combine the frequency of 3 dice at Range 2 and 2 die ships attacking from Range 1. Also doesn't factor the ship's cost, but based on this data, the Z95 is slightly better value for its cost, as it is slightly more durable and one higher in Pilot Skill

At the very least its 4 THP means it won't get one-shot at range 2-3 unless your opponent gets incredibly lucky rolling and drawing crits.

Abaht is going go be very good, I think.

The Z95 will be nice filler but I think will prove the value of dial in MJ jousting value when compared with the Tie Fighter and won't be as good of a ship in and of itself. I think that a pair of Bwings will still be better than three bandits.

Exactly this. The Z-95s one more hitpoint does not make up for the lost agility and evade. The Z-95 for itself is just not going to beat the generic Tie Fighter.

So saying if is the best jousting unit in the game seems wrong to me.

They have 2 great named pilots though, and although they are not as powerful as Howlrunner (lets face it she has always been OP, something i said from day one on and got yelled at for in this very forum), they do finally offer the coubter to swarms. Cheap ships, assault missiles, Munitions failsafe. That's it. A swarm facing that will split up and give up Howlrunner bonus, or just die. That being said even while split up they can beat Z-95 with assault missiles wuite easily. Because they are much better ship for ship.

I will tell you why: evade. Against 2 firepower ships that you also outnumber, they will never be able to kill off the swarm if they evade. Evade has been criticized a lot, but against 2 firepower, nothing compares, you win the attrition, no matter what!

I still think that adding 1-2 assault missile Z-95 or at least Blount is a good addition to a rebel list to counter imperial Swarms

Hell, they open up AAAAAZZ post retrofit, which will smoke a tie swarm. thanks to the wonder that is shields. Gives you a slghtly weaker offense, and a much much stronger defense than a tie swarm. And a whole lot of nasty manueverability.

Abaht is going go be very good, I think.

The Z95 will be nice filler but I think will prove the value of dial in MJ jousting value when compared with the Tie Fighter and won't be as good of a ship in and of itself. I think that a pair of Bwings will still be better than three bandits.

Exactly this. The Z-95s one more hitpoint does not make up for the lost agility and evade. The Z-95 for itself is just not going to beat the generic Tie Fighter.

Have you run the numbers? The math disagrees.

• Hull with 2 dice are worth somewhere between 0.70 - 0.74 of Hull at 3 agility
• Shields with 2 dice are worth somewhere between 0.80 - 0.84 of Hull at 3 agility
• This gives the Z-95 a durability of 100% to 106% of 3 hull at 3 agility.

So at a minimum, the Z-95 will be the same durability as a TIE Fighter. The Z-95 is one PS higher so it shoots first, making its equivalent PS1 cost (11.5) actually cheaper than the Academy Pilot. If a 5+ ship Rebel Swarm of Z's/B's/Refit A's can can take out Howlrunner early, it could actually have more brute force. I didn't list X's because they're technically not quite as good jousters as the above, but BXXZZZ is also looking very potent.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/?p=1111620

I also talked about jousting since someone earlier brought that up. You talked about 3 attack dice but in a direct comparison thats only the case at range1. I don't consider the better manoeuvrability of the Tie or the barrel roll skill, but focus, evade and TL are options we should look at when talking about jousting...

If you have a Z-95 with 2 attacks, TL or focus are less efficient offensively than with 3 dice. Also an evade is better against 2 dice attacks. This gets somewhat diluted when there is focus-firing involved but still if you like to hear it that way, evade is a shield every turn for the cost of an action. So no, the Z-95 will not win his jousting match against a Tie.

If we havelet's say an 8vs8 slugging match it might be different because of pilot skill 2 vs 1. In other words if Z-95 shoot well the Academy Ties wont be able to return fire in full strength of numbers, so i guess that would be a fair match in the end. Well the only thing bringing it out of balance again would of course be Howlrunner if imps take her!

So 1v1 i dont see a chance for a bandit vs an Academy. But 6v6 or 8v8 this might change.

Edit: Apologies i saw it was the guy after you talking about 3 attack dice in fact!

Etahn and 5 Z95s opens up the potential for a complete crit fest. Etahn is not exactly Howl, but the ability is different, and arguably more useful as it does not require the ships to be joined at the hip. Etahn's ability can benefit the Headhunters without necessitating that he be in formation with them.

Abaht is going go be very good, I think.

The Z95 will be nice filler but I think will prove the value of dial in MJ jousting value when compared with the Tie Fighter and won't be as good of a ship in and of itself. I think that a pair of Bwings will still be better than three bandits.

Exactly this. The Z-95s one more hitpoint does not make up for the lost agility and evade. The Z-95 for itself is just not going to beat the generic Tie Fighter.

Have you run the numbers? The math disagrees.

• Hull with 2 dice are worth somewhere between 0.70 - 0.74 of Hull at 3 agility
• Shields with 2 dice are worth somewhere between 0.80 - 0.84 of Hull at 3 agility
• This gives the Z-95 a durability of 100% to 106% of 3 hull at 3 agility.

So at a minimum, the Z-95 will be the same durability as a TIE Fighter. The Z-95 is one PS higher so it shoots first, making its equivalent PS1 cost (11.5) actually cheaper than the Academy Pilot. If a 5+ ship Rebel Swarm of Z's/B's/Refit A's can can take out Howlrunner early, it could actually have more brute force. I didn't list X's because they're technically not quite as good jousters as the above, but BXXZZZ is also looking very potent.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/?p=1111620

I dont run the numbers, but this will probably not hold together if you consider focus or evade actions

Those numbers do consider the action economy on both sides. The assumptions are basically the same as in this post here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/108727-when-is-expose-worth-it/?p=1123321

Or, for the longer explanation, see here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/?hl=lanchester

For this case:

Range bins (still based on Worlds 2013 Final Match)

Range 1: 29.4%

Range 2: 45.1%

Range 3: 17.7%

Range 3 + rock: 7.8%

Attacker action economy

focus: 67%

no focus: 33%

Defender action economy

focus: 50%

no focus: 50%

Defender agility

1 agility: 30%

2 agility: 25%

3 agility: 45%

For figuring attack damage, I brute force compute every possible permutation, weight each according to the values above, and then come up with a final number. The "average" damage of 3 base attack dice is then normalized to the "average" damage of 2 base attack dice.

To calculate durability, I do the same thing but in reverse: damage taken is calculated for agility 1, 2, 3. Instead of varying the number of base defense dice, the base number of attack dice is varied instead, between 2, 3, and 4. Critical hits are also counted and accounted for. Hull and shield durability at each possible base agility is then normalized to hull behind 3 agility.

Conclusion: the Z-95 is at least as durable as a TIE Fighter from an overall meta game sense, but not necessarily in a 1v1 matchup. Given the Z-95 has +1PS for the same cost, it's effectively 11.5 points at PS1, making it more points efficient.

No maths my old foe, when will people abandon hard numbers and instead embrace the dice gods only they will give you crits, anger them not or cursed with blanks you will be.

No maths my old foe, when will people abandon hard numbers and instead embrace the dice gods only they will give you crits, anger them not or cursed with blanks you will be.

Luck doesn't care if you believe in it or not.

No maths my old foe, when will people abandon hard numbers and instead embrace the dice gods only they will give you crits, anger them not or cursed with blanks you will be.

Luck doesn't care if you believe in it or not.

Blasphemy!