How is it unsporting like? Every professional team in every professional sport watches films and tapes of there opponents. Baseball, basketball, football, soccer, all of them. Even league of legends and Dota players watch other teams games. I'm sure chess masters watch videos of other chess masters. So since pretty much every sport/competition I can think of allows it why not X-wing? There's nothing wrong with it.

Those who go on preaching "unsportsman like this, and unsportsman like that" really have to learn what the actual definition is before throwing around words like that.

First off says what is considered unsportsman in the tournament rules. Name calling. Abuse,and slamming things down on the table. That is unsporting conduct.

Watching a game to see how others play, what they are using is fine.

If you really think that is unsporting, then obviously you must never been a party of a team in a competitive league.

If you want the best shot to win learning your opponents moves and know how he plays if perfectly fine. Anyone in any competitive league does this.

I really think if things like that bother someone, then going to tournaments is probably not in your best interest. At least the higher stakes ones. Play at home, and keep to your local game store. Have fun, but please for the love of god and everything holy, learn what a phrase means before throwing it out there.

Sorry for the rant but lately I've been seeing comments about unsportsman like conduct when in fact there is nothing unsporting at all.

You don't agree with it fine, but again learn to tell what the difference is.

I've grown up playing in a lot of competitive league, and sports, and in no way is scouting a player or team falls under unsportsman like

Sorry for the rant but lately I've been seeing comments about unsportsman like conduct when in fact there is nothing unsporting at all.

You don't agree with it fine, but again learn to tell what the difference is.

I've grown up playing in a lot of competitive league, and sports, and in no way is scouting a player or team falls under unsportsman like

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but there's a lot of background to this for the gaming realm that doesn't necessarily translate well to most traditional sports.

A lot of miniatures games, especially those from Games Workshop, are basically unplayable messes of rules contradictions and massive imbalance. Over the years, players dealt with this largely by imposing community standards on what was and wasn't acceptable. Sometimes this was formalized, sometimes not - google "warhammer comp score" for some truly fun reading.

One of the other ways to deal with this was the introduction of "soft scoring", including a "sportsmanship" score. This was a horrible idea which did nothing but put a score on whether your opponent liked what you were playing, or thought it was too powerful/broken. Imagine if your opponent could knock you out of the running for top spot because you're using dual Falcons and he thinks that's cheesy. And it's all personal - I think Biggs is overplayed, so I could ding you for running Biggs.

This is what "sportsmanship" often counts for in gaming these days - a measure of how much I like or dislike what you're running, or how you run it. Play too defensively? Bad sportsman. Dual Falcons? Bad sportsman. and on and on. It may be the same term as is used in more general sports, and even have the same broad meaning, but the list of things that qualify as good or bad is dramatically different.

Again, not trying to come down on this one way or the other (although I think it's fine) just pointing out that if you come from a more sports background, "sportsmanship" doesn't really mean what you think it means here.

I once had an opponent tell me I should keep my templates and tokens nice and neat just in case I played someone that was OCD. I told him that if I did, I'd probably mess them up more just to keep them off balance.

You know what was really bad actually? I've had played watching over my shoulder go "OHHHHHHH" when I drew a good reactive spell that would win me the game in MTG. I kind of looked at him in disbelief.

Somehow didn't spew any nasty language.

That is one thing about watching a game. Never speak or comment. EVER. Even to explain a board state to an oncoming looker because you might mention something someone forgot or can easily forget. And don't react to hidden information. Like dials.

In Video Game tournaments, teams will watch the match, scrutinize every detail, and come up with a game plan to beat it. Watch any League of Legends tournament and you will see certain characters banned and picked knowing what strategies their opponent is best at. This is just another way to distinguish player skill. If you are capable of picking up playstyle tricks from watching the last 20 minutes of a match, by all means you deserve to use your skill to your advantage.

Also, if you are unlucky enough to have a first round Bye, you are already behind in Strength of Schedule. You almost NEED to use that time to learn something about your potential opponents in order to gain what you lost.

That is one thing about watching a game. Never speak or comment. EVER.

or what? What if I make a face? roll-my eyes? wink at your opponent? blow in your ear?

gimmie a break. This paranoia comes from playing Magic...without a doubt. Many magic players are kids, kids that probably dont play physical sports and tend to lack social skills (not to mention personal hygiene). So they do and say stupid things.

I think a simple rule of "dont be a dik" can apply to most adults. If you're looking for a more sterile tournament environment, perhaps Chess is more your style.

Watching (scouting) games is totally cool. Commenting on games without being asked is not. I'm not a fan of someone giving my opponent suggestions or reminders to take actions. That one irks me. I understand that new players may not no all the rules or procedures. And I'm ok if they have a question they can ask me or another player or the TO. But if that player or any other bystander starts offering advice or reminders, totally uncool and not sportsman like. I'm still new and still learning how ships I don't fly, work, and how people with alot more time on the stick play. I won't be paranoid or being thought of as a cheater from watching other players play. I guess we should all demand that the vassal game logs be destroyed, and youtube videos be taking down. Lest we find out that Paul is now flying a goldie.

I don't have an issue with games being watched. I do however agree with the commenting on games being played, especially if it's top tables and I don't play Magic. As has been said the game is between two guys playing and if you commentate giving something away then I think that's bad form. That's not to say stay silent, just talk about what has happened not what may happen.

Scout away, but don't comment while people are playing, that's just rude and distracting. It's actually exhilarating to have people watch, makes you feel like a star :-)

Scouting and coaching are two entirely different things. Coaching is most certainly a no-no, and against the rules in some games/sports (both Magic and tennis come to mind).

Feel free to spectate, but you should never kibitz.

If this game is so competitive that this sort of thing is frowned upon, I need to get into a different game. (Gladly, in my local experience, it isn't.)

I find that the 'fly casual' ethos is pretty strong, and the players (for the most part) are genial and friendly. If someone is 'scouting' you out, consider it a compliment. If you're really afraid - don't do the same things in the game against your scout, as you did in the game that he scouted you out in.

Do people really believe that they are supreme tactical geniuses with super secret plays/tech that drives the games in their favor?

If someone is done before you its really only one of 3 possibilities:

a) they are better than you and your opponent, thus tabling their opponent before your game was even half way done. These players will probably know all your gambits before you do.

b) they are just luckier than you and your opponent, in which case they wont get much value from watching your game.

c) the losers. This can go either way.

In this game there is no secret information. All your cards and upgrades need to be clearly displayed. ALL your dials are standardized

(Collapsing star: Formation fly into the scrim, as normal. Second round of combat, your back-row do matador-turns as your front row Koiogran. All of your TIEs still have a very potent kill-zone of concentrated fire, but your opponent can only put 1/2 of them in their arc, at most. Third turn, finish your Matador with the back-row, and have your Front-row perform a 3-Forward. Now the front's back in front, and you've still got all of the kill-zone potential.)

I would actually, and really really, like to see this done...

If this game is so competitive that this sort of thing is frowned upon, I need to get into a different game. (Gladly, in my local experience, it isn't.)

I find that the 'fly casual' ethos is pretty strong, and the players (for the most part) are genial and friendly. If someone is 'scouting' you out, consider it a compliment. If you're really afraid - don't do the same things in the game against your scout, as you did in the game that he scouted you out in.

Darn straight... If someone wants to scout me playing, go ahead. I'll even sign autographs. The mere fact that someone finds something I am doing interesting is one heck of a compliment.

Clearly, again, people playing with toy ships, going pew, pew, pew, are taking themselves too serioulsy.

Redacted for offensive and immature name-calling.

There's nothing wrong with scouting. As far as observers being intimidating or distracting, that comes with the territory.

The only way I see scouting as a problem is if you have another person going from table to table getting information for you. Ive been in situations before where Ive watched games in progress and discuss counters to it with other non combatants (out of earshot). when I made top 8, I talked to Khyros about potential strategies for some of the other players that made it (including the players he played) and when I made it into the final, I watched for a good 2 hours the world champ vs my soon to be opponent play.

As for the comment regarding how good the world champion is... I would say there are definitely different tiers of play. Since I have yet to play Paul, I cannot say whether or not he is better then me, but I can say that Khyros and Jetsetter are two of the top notched players I have ever went against. When I play a game, skill usually comes into play. not all games that I lose I blame on skill (though its rare that I lose other then a tactical blunder) but likewise, I played Johndo, beat him and still consider him a very very strong player.

You are playing in a Rock, Paper, Scissor tournament. You show up early and so have many other people. inside your bag you have taken one of each of the possibilities. Every player is eager to show off what they are playing this day leaving their Rocks, Papers, and Scissors lying about the tables. You have not turned in you registration sheet yet and notice about 60% of the players have Rock sitting in front of them. You then gleefully pull out your Paper and turn in your registration. Now 20% Paper, 20% Scissors and 60%Rock have it out. knowing the mass amount of Rocks showing up will take care of your nemesis Scissor and your dominating game vs Rocks leaves you a good chance of winning the tournament. Now that is scouting!

For the love of all that is good, could you please tell me what a Rock army is? And by that same token, a Scissor army? And a Paper army? Because I swear, I show up to our tournaments and I lose ALL the time. I wanna know what these **** armies are.

Maybe I shouldn't be bringing the Lizard flown by Spock.

(Collapsing star: Formation fly into the scrim, as normal. Second round of combat, your back-row do matador-turns as your front row Koiogran. All of your TIEs still have a very potent kill-zone of concentrated fire, but your opponent can only put 1/2 of them in their arc, at most. Third turn, finish your Matador with the back-row, and have your Front-row perform a 3-Forward. Now the front's back in front, and you've still got all of the kill-zone potential.)

I would actually, and really really, like to see this done...

Yeah, I don't know what a Matador turn is, and this is honestly the most productive part of the discussion.

Yeah, I don't know what a Matador turn is, and this is honestly the most productive part of the discussion.

I recall it being explained on here once by someone. I think it was something like a 1-turn followed by a barrel roll to put you as close as possible to your starting position but rotated 90 degrees. But I can't quite visualize this collapsing star formation maneuver he is describing.

(Collapsing star: Formation fly into the scrim, as normal. Second round of combat, your back-row do matador-turns as your front row Koiogran. All of your TIEs still have a very potent kill-zone of concentrated fire, but your opponent can only put 1/2 of them in their arc, at most. Third turn, finish your Matador with the back-row, and have your Front-row perform a 3-Forward. Now the front's back in front, and you've still got all of the kill-zone potential.)

I would actually, and really really, like to see this done...

Yeah, I don't know what a Matador turn is, and this is honestly the most productive part of the discussion.

Agreed. I'm curious myself.

I'm through two pages (got busy) and will eventually get through the rest but there is nothing wrong with scouting the landscape.

I know in one thread where someone was bemoaning the bye's SOS as a "winless" opponent I suggested that the time not spent playing that round could/should be spent looking around at the other games and learning information there which may help you win later. You see something you've never seen before you may be much more prepared for it if you happen to face it.

In a game like this when there is no "secret" information all scouting does is give you an idea how someone may play assuming they don't change things up if they face you. In MtG the contents of a person's deck may be "secret" but if it's a constructed tournament the well prepared player will already have a good idea what a given deck may contain; even without so much prep if someone is playing something radical word is likely to get out quickly. Now even in MtG knowing what's in a person's deck before you sit down against them doesn't help you so much because everyone has to start with the same deck they registered with so there is no "first game sideboarding" going on; maybe you alter your play but that doesn't always help.

I think context is key.

If you are a new player trying to learn tips, yes watching is great, and not an issue.

If you are done playing, watching to pass the time is fine. But remember, so is striking up a conversation with other people who are done.

If you are a top level player, try watching the new guy and give him pointers afterwards. If you are a top level player and of all the matches going on specifically seek out the person who you see as your greatest threat for the purpose of getting some pre-game intel on his play style that does sound a little fishy.

(Collapsing star: Formation fly into the scrim, as normal. Second round of combat, your back-row do matador-turns as your front row Koiogran. All of your TIEs still have a very potent kill-zone of concentrated fire, but your opponent can only put 1/2 of them in their arc, at most. Third turn, finish your Matador with the back-row, and have your Front-row perform a 3-Forward. Now the front's back in front, and you've still got all of the kill-zone potential.)

I would actually, and really really, like to see this done...

Yeah, I don't know what a Matador turn is, and this is honestly the most productive part of the discussion.

Makes me wish I had something other than Microsoft Paint to illustrate the entire turn-by-turn roll-out for you guys. Might have to find my camera and re-create it...

Matador Turn: Rather than executing a koiogran or attempting to out-distance a chasing opponent, instead to a 1 turn, followed by a Barrel-Roll, so that you overlap your original position. This almost works out as a Shuttle's Stop, but with a 90* pivot.

The opponents, expecting the much more common Koiogran in a joust, or your continued attempts to disengage from a chase, will usually fly right into your sights, without putting you in theirs.

One great thing about adding this tactic to your arsenal is that, once you've taught an opponent to expect it, you can return to the Koiogran/Disengage patterns they used to suspect, as there are exceedingly few positions they can take that would cover both tactics.