I do not foresee this thread ending well.

It's a game. "You play to win the game." - Herm Edwards

Watching other matches is not scouting as some of you are taking it. Just seeing how an opponent acts during certain situations does give you some information to work on. Here is scouting as I see it.......

You are playing in a Rock, Paper, Scissor tournament. You show up early and so have many other people. inside your bag you have taken one of each of the possibilities. Every player is eager to show off what they are playing this day leaving their Rocks, Papers, and Scissors lying about the tables. You have not turned in you registration sheet yet and notice about 60% of the players have Rock sitting in front of them. You then gleefully pull out your Paper and turn in your registration. Now 20% Paper, 20% Scissors and 60%Rock have it out. knowing the mass amount of Rocks showing up will take care of your nemesis Scissor and your dominating game vs Rocks leaves you a good chance of winning the tournament. Now that is scouting!

Oh look, another sportsmanship debate.

Honestly, I see nothing wrong with it.

If I do watch someone else's match, I'll ask both players first if they mind me watching, and if they are both ok with it I'll watch, but won't comment much as I don't want to influence how either play.

But personally I see no issue with it. Especially since X-wing generally plays out different every game at least after the initial joust/fight in the asteroids. And you never know who you are playing until parings are announced anyway - unless there are only two people 3-0 for the final round or other similar issues.

"STOP LOOKING AT MY BOARD! YOU'RE DESPERATE AND PATHETIC!"

I think that you are having so much trouble containing yourself because you clearly did not understand the question.

Obviously it is the intent that matters. You will notice that the OP didn't ask if it is sportsmanlike to watch another game - he specifically asked about scouting, which is an attempt to get an advantage. And, if you feel attempting to watch how another plays this game is worth doing in order to win your subsequent match, then you are desperate. Being desperate enough to get an advantage that your oppoent cannot also makes you pathetic.

Walking around and stopping at each table for a turn or two, socializing the whole time = not a big deal.

Stopping at a table with a pen and paper for several turns, taking notes = might be crossing the line.

Video recording a game (that is not your own or is not the final game in the World Championship) with running commentary = borderline creepy

i think it's funny the articles on FFGs site are from a guy who the majority of the forum thinks is on a whole other level from everyone else... but there is no way to judge how good he REALLY is because the worlds event is in MN and restricted to those who have the free time and $$$ to attend.

i'm not belittling the accomplishment of winning worlds, i'm just saying there could be tens or hundreds of guys out there that are "on the same level" but that dont have the means or inclination to attend.

it really would be interesting to have a ranking system for the competitive folks in x-wing, i wonder if RHQ could work something up for the game.

Then you will notice that the article was posted by FFG on their main page by either a webmaster or someone who hacked the site. That means that watching other games and learning new tricks is considered part of the game. Call FFG and tell them they're pathetic.

I think it mostly has to do with studying the opponent. If I watched some guy play a squad before I played him, I could pick up on a few things. Such as, which guys to pick off first, how I should set up to counter his formation, and his over all strategy.

Walking around and stopping at each table for a turn or two, socializing the whole time = not a big deal.

Stopping at a table with a pen and paper for several turns, taking notes = might be crossing the line.

Video recording a game (that is not your own or is not the final game in the World Championship) with running commentary = borderline creepy

Acting paranoid about other players watching your game is the complete antithesis of "fly casual" and the only "desperate and pathetic" people are the ones who would give a crap about someone watching the last few minutes of their game during a tournament. In addition to the utter lack of secrecy required for the game (aside from dial placement which can still easily be hidden until the reveal), the end game is usually controlled chaos resulting from a perfectly singular back and forth between two players over the course of an hour or 75 minutes from little can really be learned other than force composition... which you learn five seconds into the next match anyway. Watching set-up, opening moves, etc., might reveal more, but it's a pretty piss poor player who plays the same way every time out rather than adjusting to their opponent's list, the maneuvers, and the evolution of the game itself. You will learn so much more about your opponent during their set-up and initial moves that the concept of scouting is pretty ridiculous as an "advantage."

"STOP LOOKING AT MY BOARD! YOU'RE DESPERATE AND PATHETIC!"

I think that you are having so much trouble containing yourself because you clearly did not understand the question.

Obviously it is the intent that matters. You will notice that the OP didn't ask if it is sportsmanlike to watch another game - he specifically asked about scouting, which is an attempt to get an advantage. And, if you feel attempting to watch how another plays this game is worth doing in order to win your subsequent match, then you are desperate. Being desperate enough to get an advantage that your oppoent cannot also makes you pathetic.

Then you will notice that the article was posted by FFG on their main page by either a webmaster or someone who hacked the site. That means that watching other games and learning new tricks is considered part of the game. Call FFG and tell them they're pathetic.

Why, exactly, would anyone care enough to do that? The OP made a general inquiry that I though was interesting and I responded.

Even if I could and would convince FFG to retract the article, there is no actual issue with scouting because of the nature of how XWing is played. There is a very small advantage (if any) to be obtained by watching an opponent that could not be obtained by a minute or two of thinking. The point is that someone who would attempt to scout is a strange person and would continue to be such a person whether they scouted during XWing games or not.

This is known as 'scouting' and it's discouraged in most organized play environments that I know of.

I haven't actually played this game in a store yet, let alone in a tournament, but... really? Is this a cultural thing with miniature games?

Any other well received sport is analyzed to death. Every single "real" sport that I can think of has significant scouting of your opponent's playstyle. Football. Baseball. Basketball. Hockey. Boxing. Chess. Starcraft 2. Many more....

Edit:

P.S. If my opponent scouts my play, then that does NOT demonstrate unsportsmanlike conduct. In fact, the opposite is true: it demonstrates very good sportsmanship. Why? Because he respects you as a player enough to take his time and study your play.

Likewise, it must be acknowledged that competitive tournaments are played in public, and the better you do, the more you will be scrutinized. You can't stop people from watching your tactics, publishing battle reports, and relaying your exact squad breakdown and opening moves. I haven't actually heard of this msyelf, but attempting to silence others from expressing their experiences is at best unsportsmanlike, and at worst unlawful. In the U.S. at least, Free Speech is very strongly Constitutionally protected.

Getting your play observed is not merely something that any successful competitive player has to deal with. It's a badge of honor. As with anything competitive, there will always be a top dog that people will want to take down. So strive to be King of the Hill for as long as you can before someone else takes your place.

And Fly Casual.

No, its mostly Magic nerds. I guess the idea is that you pull off some crazy surprise combo on Game 1 of 3 and thus hopefully win....then going into game 2 and 3 you've already got 1 win. If someone scouts you, they might see your combo or maybe your whole deck and be prepared.

I've NEVER seen or even heard of scouting being an issue in any kind of miniature gaming. In fact, some 40k tournaments ive been to requires you to have a printed army list to hand to your opponent before you play. Nothing is hidden. Your opponent can ask what forces you've placed in reserve or point to a transport vehicle and ask which troops are embarked on it.

Attempting to seize an advantage that is unavailable to your opponent but available to you based on the simple chance of you finishing your game before them is desperate and pathetic.

And that is true regardless of any effectiveness.

Wow! Can't say I disagree with you more. Scouting is something you should be doing ... at every chance you get.

For those who consider XWM to be a wargame-

Reconnaissance (scouting) is one of the principles of war. Battles have been won and lost do to the quality of their scouting. All good tactical and strategic commanders know this and knowing how to properly apply such reconnaissance is what sets apart the better ones. To claim that an enemy's scouting efforts gave them an "unfair" advantage is to call attention to your own failing to perform proper reconnaissance.

For those who see XWM as more of a "sport" or competitive game-

Scouting is regularly practiced in every major sport, from Little League baseball up to and including professional sports, world wide. Much time, effort and money is spent watching opposing teams play- not just when they are your opponent of the day but when they play other teams. Does this give either team an "unfair" advantage?

When going to a game convention or tournament, you should go watch other games and gamers. Why? Well...

1. That is how we get better. Watch other players, learn from them, their successes, their mistakes.

2. Sitting in isolation is boring, anti-social and not the best way to experience the whole con/tourney experience. Gaming conventions and tournaments are social functions... be sociable. If you don't want to socialize with other gamers, you might as well save yourself time and money and play on Vassal or some other on-line venue.

3. One could even make an argument that NOT watching others play is a form of willful ignorance ( "I don't want to know what others are doing" )or an act of arrogance ( "There is nothing I could possibly learn from other players" ).

In any case, there is no guarantee that any info you gain by "scouting" will grant you victory... or even be applicable in your game. XWM tournaments use open lists (force composition is open to any player at any time) and do not allow changes to those lists. If you watched a given player in Round 1 and then faced them in Round 2, would you be able to modify your force to better fight theirs? No. If you studied their deployment and tactics in that game, could you adjusts and adapt your own formations, tactics and play style to better match theirs? Yes. Would they adapt their deployments, tactics and play style to counter yours? Sure. Players may change their deployments, tactics and play style to suit their opponent and terrain (asteroid set-up)... and usually do! Any real advantage gained by scouting (other than to make you a better educated player) is relatively minimal.

Just my two credits.

There is a line here but I'll be damned if I can pinpoint it for all the grey in way.

IME, players complaining about a lack of sportsmanship is a symptom of one of two things:

1. Fundamental lack of game balance. There's a lot of this in WH40K, as evidenced by the huge list of houserules, ban lists, etc. (which are attempts to formalize "sportsmanlike" behavior that is otherwise legal under the rules). This would manifest in x-wing as comments like "TIE swarms are cheap," or "Any scrub can win with a YT turret," in an attempt to stigmatize a successful player who is obeying the rules of the game. I don't think that's what is going on here.

2. Players attempting to simultaneously invent moral high ground and externalize the cause of their poor performance. "I lost, but only because my opponent 'scouted' and I didn't; therefore I'm the better person."

i think it's funny the articles on FFGs site are from a guy who the majority of the forum thinks is on a whole other level from everyone else... but there is no way to judge how good he REALLY is because the worlds event is in MN and restricted to those who have the free time and $$$ to attend.

i'm not belittling the accomplishment of winning worlds, i'm just saying there could be tens or hundreds of guys out there that are "on the same level" but that dont have the means or inclination to attend.

it really would be interesting to have a ranking system for the competitive folks in x-wing, i wonder if RHQ could work something up for the game.

A bit of a tangent, but that's one of the main reasons I'm loving this game. When I won the local regional last Summer, I was 50/50 about going to Worlds 2013. Mainly I thought that even though I was doing well at my local store, I would get picked-apart by the pros. Well, turns out that I wasn't as bad as I thought, and with some luck nearly made it all the way! Yes the competition was fierce (a couple games came down to the last dice roll), but it is interesting that anyone you run into could be an amazing player, even if they haven't been to any big event yet.

Specifically in regards to the main question of the thread, I don't think the 'scouting' thing is a big deal. It could potentially become a problem when taken to the extreme, but on the whole there shouldn't be a problem with roaming around and checking out other games that haven't finished yet. Mainly I love to see the different list creations that people bring for their 'A-game', and I sometimes like to try them out later in casual matches to give them a spin.

Is this a cultural thing with miniature games?

No it's not, as was said above, it's more an issue for Magic players.

The thing is, X-Wing seems to attract both mini gamers and CCG/LCG players. The problem is, the ccg types bring preconceived notions about fair/sportsmanship to this game, even though it doesn't actually work here.

Ask anyone who's from the 40k/FB/Warmahordes side of things about scouting and they may not even understand what you're asking. There is nothing hidden in those games so there's next to nothing you can learn by watching other people play.

That isn't true of CCG's, but we're not playing that here, so a lot of these concepts simply don't work or matter in X-Wing. The biggest issue I suppose is the CCG/LCG types thinking that their unwritten rules and concepts apply here like they do in the CCG/LCG world.

AVERT YOUR EYES! You are looking at my list with evil intent! I can sense it in you!

Yeah. I think gladly in this game, it shouldn't be much of an issue until you get Paul Heaver's level. There, I bet even those smallest tics could be useful information. Most of us don't know how to process this material in a useful manner.

Watching for fun should be encouraged. And more openness and friendliness.

It could, on the other hand, do as Paul suggests and teach you new tactics that you hadn't previously considered.

The most useful matches to scout for the average player aren't their next opponents, but rather the mirror-match.

I know the first time I pulled a collapsing-star with my TIE Swarm against a fellow Imperial, he sat there slack-jawed for a while, and then got a wide grin as he thought about how he could do it to someone else.

(Collapsing star: Formation fly into the scrim, as normal. Second round of combat, your back-row do matador-turns as your front row Koiogran. All of your TIEs still have a very potent kill-zone of concentrated fire, but your opponent can only put 1/2 of them in their arc, at most. Third turn, finish your Matador with the back-row, and have your Front-row perform a 3-Forward. Now the front's back in front, and you've still got all of the kill-zone potential.)

Since there isn't a hidden component to lists, AND you're not likely to be able to scout the opening turns of a game (which are probably the most useful to know) since you'll be playing your OWN game, I see absolutely no issue with "scouting" in X-Wing. Even if you have the first round bye, good luck guessing who you'll be randomly paired with next round. The entire thing is ridiculous.

Since there isn't a hidden component to lists, AND you're not likely to be able to scout the opening turns of a game (which are probably the most useful to know) since you'll be playing your OWN game, I see absolutely no issue with "scouting" in X-Wing. Even if you have the first round bye, good luck guessing who you'll be randomly paired with next round. The entire thing is ridiculous.

Ding ding ding.

How is it unsporting like? Every professional team in every professional sport watches films and tapes of there opponents. Baseball, basketball, football, soccer, all of them. Even league of legends and Dota players watch other teams games. I'm sure chess masters watch videos of other chess masters. So since pretty much every sport/competition I can think of allows it why not X-wing? There's nothing wrong with it.

To be really fair, the regional reporting is in its own way scouting. You are seeing a collection of data across many counties to give a clear picture of the current meta game.

Y'know, when we play in X-wing tournaments on VASSAL over at Team Covenant, the log file of each match is posted for all to watch. You don't just scout, you SCOUR each and every move of your upcoming opponent's previous matches to try to figure out how to beat them. You look at which squads gave them fits, and why. You look at asteroid setup, formations, tricky maneuvers, target priority; anything that could give you an edge in your upcoming match.

...Okay, so maybe nobody actually does that, but you could. Nobody has ever been bothered by that. In fact, it's a lot of fun because you get to see how everybody got to where they are in the top 8, and you really can learn a lot about tactics.

Nobody has ever been bothered by that.

Again, I think what we have here is someone who maybe came from the CCG/LCG world trying to apply he way things are done there here. Which clearly doesn't work.

Then we also have the whole issue of just what is Sportsmanship actually is.