So, today FFG posted another Turn Zero article by Paul Heaver. While it contains a lot of interesting and important information about metagaming, I was troubled by this sentence: "...throughout the tournament, take time to watch other matches after you complete yours. You may possibly discover some interesting tactics you might not have thought of, and you may also see how your future opponents act."

This is known as 'scouting' and it's discouraged in most organized play environments that I know of. It doesn't tend to get enforced very much, but I don't personally consider the tactic very sportsmanlike.

Thoughts on this? Does FFG have anything in their floor rules that allows or disallows scouting?

personally i think there is a big difference between being logically tactical and full blown scouting..

Keeping your eyes open and being situationally aware is one thing and to me is morally legit. It would be extremely difficult to "not" notice what other people are playing with.

On the other hand purposefully spying on a soon to be opponent's game while you have a bye to see his opening moves and tactics while dog fighting... well that probably isn't very sportsmen like.

There is a line in there somewhere.. lots of gray in the zone but I think you'll know if you cross it...

Does not seem very sportsmanlike. I know it happens though. I've had players in MTG tournaments who are done watch my matches.

It took an hour once for one of the top 3 judges in the game to kill me at a local tournament. Sadly, he finally did on the very very last possible turn and then I played someone who knew basically my entire deck. That later opponent wasn't that fun.

Nearly the whole rest of the tournament was watching to see if i could pull out of the game and win it because of who my opponent was.

I've had some really sour experience with some people at things like this.

So when you are done with your game you pick up your stuff an go to the nearest corner and sit till the TO calls round? Your area does not seem like a very fun place to play. Our area encourages players to watch other games. I'm not going to get mad at a player watching my game trying to learn tips, he'll, I give tips to players I play. I see them making a blunder I'm going to call them on it, weather it's forgetting gunner or something else.

I lost every match at Imdaar Alpha (which I expected as I'm still new to the game, my first match was my third ever game).

After each of my matches I watched everyone else play, simply for the enjoyment as a spectator... It honestly didn't even occur to me to watch for specific strategies, etc.

I wasn't alone. Most of us hung around the whole day to watch all the matches, it was a blast (and a long day - 16 players with hour long matches with half-hour breaks between... all told I was there nine hours).

I would think it'd be fine for a player to request that you not watch him if he was bothered by it, but I suspect most people wouldn't care. No one at our Imdaar Alpha event did.

I don't play competitively so this "scouting" thing is very new to me. I didn't even know it was a thing, let alone something that people had strong feelings about.

I would think though that if someone can gain a strong advantage from watching one of your games, maybe you're playing too rigidly? Am I wrong?

Its more of a problem if you know with high likeliness who your next opponent is. say there are only 8 of you and its down to the 2-0 or 3-0 match.

Also more if youre going around the 2 or 3 games that you have likely opponents in and actually studying their moves.

This is mitigated a little more by the fact that X-Wing doesn't have hidden information, so its less of a big deal such as in MTG.

This seems like a very "Magic" thing to me. I've played in lots of game tournaments, none of them Magic and I've never even heard of scouting. Even in a similar game to Magic, Netrunner...where I guess knowing deck composition would perhaps help you out, I've never been called out for scouting someone nor seen anyone else. In many tournament formats, you dont even know your next opponent until all results are posted from the current round. I suppose there might be cases where you could figure it out yourself. If some guy came over to watch me play, knowing/hoping/thinking he would play me next I *might* think he's a **** but I wouldnt call him out and say "you scouted me bro!". Generally, people tend to congregate around what looks like an exciting match.

I think it's important to distinguish between games like magic or other CCGs which have a major hidden component, and X-wing, which has open lists. Scouting at CcG events gives you information you wouldn't otherwise have, which can be a big deal.

I've never really seen he obsession over it in minis games. If someone can pick you apart after watching he last 10 minutes of your previous game, you probably didn't deserve to win the game anyway.

On the other hand purposefully spying on a soon to be opponent's game while you have a bye to see his opening moves and tactics while dog fighting... well that probably isn't very sportsmen like.

I think, sadly, hat this developed from the more jerk component of minis gamers. It's not about "I don't want you to see my tactics" but more about "I've got this killer corner case combo combo people don't know about it and if they see it coming they'll stop it". Unless a game includes a secret component, there's very little to be gained from scouting.

It's a big deal in magic and other games of the sort because there's lots of hidden info... what does the guy have in his deck, how does he combo it, etc...

In X wing, everything is laid out. Yeah, you could see the guy tends to self bump so he doesn't move forward much, and you could file that away as something to consider when playing him, but he could just as easily change that up on you, and if you were thinking he was going to self bump, now he's in a better position.

Again, only a problem when there's hidden info.

If you're showing up with a premade list there is nothing wrong with this at all. What are you supposed to do? Stare at the ceiling and cover your ears?

If you're then modifying your list after seeing what your next opponent has then that's an issue in a competitive environment.

Attempting to seize an advantage that is unavailable to your opponent but available to you based on the simple chance of you finishing your game before them is desperate and pathetic.

And that is true regardless of any effectiveness.

Seizing an advantage that is unavailable to your opponent but available to you based on the simple chance of you finishing your game before them is desperate and pathetic.

LOL

Yeah. I think gladly in this game, it shouldn't be much of an issue until you get Paul Heaver's level. There, I bet even those smallest tics could be useful information. Most of us don't know how to process this material in a useful manner.

Watching for fun should be encouraged. And more openness and friendliness.

What are you supposed to do? Stare at the ceiling and cover your ears?

now THAT would look effin funny!

Yeah, not gonna lie, if you call people out for scouting you're being a little paranoid. I feel paranoid refusing to post a list until I've used it in my local scene for fear of people building against it. It's not like anything about this game is hidden. We don't have trap cards, we don't construct our crit decks(or at least shouldn't be...)

I don't see a problem with it, especially since it is open to every player to turn to their left/right during a match and pick up on the initial approaches, etc.

Honestly, there isn't a WHOLE lot of useful information you can use. Everything in this game is out in the open, after all.

At most, you might see something like...this player prefers a corner setup, or dense asteroids. Most of this you can just guess based on your opponent's squad anyways.

In the end you pick most moves based on your opponent's placement. Heck, maybe the placement you saw wasn't the usual placement, but a reactionary setup to stop his first opponent.

Since every player has the option to see a match, I think it is okay.

It's perfectly reasonable and not a question of sportsmanship. I would question the tactical acumen of someone who doesn't take an opportunity to study their opponent. This is done ALL THE TIME in professional and amateur sports.

I could maybe see this being unsportsmanlike in a CCG game. AS others said what's in your deck is hidden so that could have a factor...

But then again you play best of 3, and so you'll have a good idea what's there the 2nd and 3rd game, which is why they allow sideboarding. So even then I think that's iffy.

In X-Wing or other games like it, such as Warmachine, 40k, Fantasy, ect... It doesn't really give you any info you wouldn't have at the start of the game, other then some idea what the guys tactics are like. I can't see how anyone could consider that to be unsportsmanlike.

Especially when you consider that in many sports, watching game film is a big part of getting ready for the game.

I'm sitting here at my desk at work during my lunch break reading this thread on my iPad and I'm still laughing. The mental picture of another grown man bent over a game board playing Xwing screaming at me not to look at his board is hilarious.

"Oh I see what this guy does....he puts little templates in front of his ships then moves them! sneaky!"

"STOP LOOKING AT MY BOARD! YOU'RE DESPERATE AND PATHETIC!"

There is a line here but I'll be damned if I can pinpoint it for all the grey in way. I suppose it should come down to common sense, something that unfortunately is a precious commodity nowadays. As for myself, I usually spend some time at tournaments looking at other players tables but I seldom linger very long so I don't think I'm 'scouting'. As always there is a caveat. I did notice at the Imdaar event that I was going to meet a player that I had watched playing earlier and I suspected his tactic would be trying to surround me with his Squints (3 of them), with a Doomshuttle going in the middle. Despite knowing this I walked straight into the trap and how I managed to scrape a victory from that is beyond me.

I do not foresee this thread ending well.

"STOP LOOKING AT MY BOARD! YOU'RE DESPERATE AND PATHETIC!"

I think that you are having so much trouble containing yourself because you clearly did not understand the question.

Obviously it is the intent that matters. You will notice that the OP didn't ask if it is sportsmanlike to watch another game - he specifically asked about scouting, which is an attempt to get an advantage. And, if you feel attempting to watch how another plays this game is worth doing in order to win your subsequent match, then you are desperate. Being desperate enough to get an advantage that your oppoent cannot also makes you pathetic.