Coming out of Imdaar Alpha weekend w/ a Defender, Ewing and Z95, I spent the next week on vacation w/o internet access or my star wars minis. (BTW, family reunions suck when you're the only real geek/nerd/gamer in the family ) With only a pencil & paper, I killed time squadbuilding to put my new ships & cards to good use when I got back.

I'm now fixated on one idea... Building an effective alpha strike list using Vader, Captain Jonus, and my new Defender. Those 3 ships have a baseline cost of 81pts, leaving us 19pts of upgrades, ordinance & initiative bidding. Now let us try and build a list that can isolate and kill a squad centerpiece (Biggs, Howlrunner, etc) or cut down opposing ship count ASAP to establish a favorable mid-to-endgame.

Before we get started, a few comments. This is a casual thought experiment (hence the thread title ). We are not building the 2014 world champ list, though we are mindful of what makes competitive lists strong and trying to find the best way to combat them within our established restrictions. Restrictions breed creativity, as the saying goes. We also go ahead fully acknowledging the inherent weaknesses of 3 ship lists, alpha strike lists, the TIE advanced & the TIE bomber, so don't waste everyone's time commenting on such things unless you are offering ideas to compensate for those inherent weaknesses. We all know ahead of time that making this work is an uphill battle from the get go.

That being said, here's what I've got so far...

Version 1.x - Vader w/ swarm tactics

1.0 - 99pts

Vader w/ swarm tactics & assault missile

Captain Jonus w/ concussion missile

Delta Squadron DFD w/ HLC

1.1 - 100pts

Vader w/ swarm tactics & assault missile

Captain Jonus w/ veteran instincts & concussion missile

Delta Squadron DFD w/ HLC

1.2 - 100pts

Vader w/ swarm tactics & assault missile

Captain Jonus w/ homing missile

Delta Squadron DFD w/ HLC

1.3 - 100pts

Vader w/ swarm tactics & assault missile

Captain Jonus w/ assault missile

Delta Squadron DFD w/ HLC

1.4 - 100pts

Vader w/ swarm tactics & assault missile

Captain Jonus w/ 2x flechette torpedo & munitions failsafe

Delta Squadron DFD w/ HLC

These 4 all have Vader using swarm tactics to pull a Delta up to PS 9 for the alpha strike. I also have Vader using assault missile. Delta shoots first w/ focus and Jonus to strip tokens, Vader fires assault missile w/ focus & Jonus to land splash damage. The remaining 5pts are free to play with, mostly spent here to give Jonus some teeth of his own. I think HLC instead of missiles makes for the stronger midgame, and forgoes the need for squad leader to get the late activation target lock a missile based alpha strike needs against pilots like Biggs and Howlrunner. I'm pretty certain Vader needs to run assault missile to help combat enemy lists with high ship counts, like TIEswarms and Imperial Methadone, and punish Biggs & Howlrunner formations.

Version 2.x - Elite Defenders

2.0 - 100pts

Vader w/ assault missile

Rexlar Brath w/ HLC

Captain Jonus

2.1 - 100pts

Vader w/ assault missile

Colonel Vessery w/ veteran instincts & assault missile

Captain Jonus w/ draw their fire & seismic charge

2.2 - 100pts

Vader w/ assault missile

Colonel Vessery w/ veteran instincts & HLC

Captain Jonus w/ draw their fire

2.3 - 100pts

Vader w/ assault missile

Colonel Vessery w/ veteran instincts, ion cannon & assault missile

Captain Jonus

These versions have Jonus in a pure support role, but allow the Defender to break away and be a stronger independent force in the midgame. These builds have Vader shooting first in the alpha strike, making his missile less likely to push through vs high agility targets.

All these lists make the Defender the prime target, since it's the only ship w/ 3 attack after the alpha strike. Vader w/o engine upgrade is weaker in the endgame than w/, but only 1.x could spare the points for it, nerfing Jonus' output in the process. Thoughts??

My first thought was "If we're using Jonus, then what's Vader using his second action for?"

My second thought was "Oh yeah, he has to Target Lock to fire his missile. I almost never use those anymore, so I forgot. Duh."

However, my second thought was ages after my first thought, and so I thunked a Squad Leader onto Vader to pass a bonus to Jonus. That way, Jonus' ordnance is also boosted, rather than the diminished returns of Vader's being Double-Boosted.

Note: If one attack has 2 boosts and the other has 0 boosts, than the first gets 7/8 chance of damage per die, and the second gets 4/8 chance of damage per die. If both attacks have 1, then the first gets 6/8 chance of damage per die, and the second also gets 6/8 chance of damage per die. 11<12, so the even split is better, ja?

In defense of the loss of Swarm Tactics, let's examine the role of Pilot Skill in an Alpha-Strike sense.

A High PS gives you :

1. A greater chance of target-locking your target
2. A greater chance of destroying your target before they can shoot
3. A greater chance of tossing your ordnance before your death.

Now, with Swarm Tactics, no. 1 is not a benefit. On to the next two:

Two Missiles at 1 boat will surely do the job, so you're most likely going to kill them at PS 6. As you can't fit that many ships before PS 6 in a fleet, no 2. is fairly safe. The Defender's attack is likely only to matter against Chewbacca, Krassis, and the Bounty Hunter.

The Defender is not in any danger of dying before firing. It has insane durability, particularly at long-range as alpha-strikes tend to be.

Jonus is not in any danger of dying before firing. 6 hull with 2 agility is quite tanky, particularly when you're only in danger of getting shot by 9-7s before you. No 3. is fairly safe as well.

My ideal version of the 1.X schemata is therefore:

Darth Vader

+ Squad Leader

+ Assault Missiles

Capt. Jonus

+ Assault Missiles

Delta Squad

+ Heavy Laser Cannon

I went with double Assaults because you simply cannot beat the damage potential.

With rolling all Hits against all Blanks, the best the accursed Advanced Proton Torpedoes can do is 5 damage.

With rolling all Hits against all Blanks, the best the churlish Cluster Missiles can do is 6 damage.

With rolling all Hits against all Blanks, the best the mighty Assault Missiles can do is 11* damage

*11= 4 at the target, and up to 7 spread to their teammates, in a 100 point match.

If those hits were all Direct-Hit Crits, it becomes 10 // 12 // 15, which is a closer race, but still in the Assault's favor.

Before we get started, a few comments. This is a casual thought experiment (hence the thread title ). We are not building the 2014 world champ list, though we are mindful of what makes competitive lists strong and trying to find the best way to combat them within our established restrictions. Restrictions breed creativity, as the saying goes. We also go ahead fully acknowledging the inherent weaknesses of 3 ship lists, alpha strike lists, the TIE advanced & the TIE bomber, so don't waste everyone's time commenting on such things unless you are offering ideas to compensate for those inherent weaknesses. We all know ahead of time that making this work is an uphill battle from the get go.

^^

I find your thoughts to be very productive, DraconPyrothayan. Although I'd have to insist that squad leader gets it's own version bracket.

Version 3.x - Vader w/ squad leader

3.0 100pts

Vader w/ squad leader & assault missile

Captain Jonus w/ assault missile

Delta Squadron DFD w/ HLC

You've opened my eyes to yet another possibility. By shifting the focus of the alpha strike from the Defender to Jonus himself, we could play around with some upgrade points to make Jonus a bit more potent, and gear the Defender more toward the midgame dogfight.

2.4 - 100pts

Vader w/ assault missile

Captain Jonus w/ predator & assault missile

Colonel Vessery w/ veteran instincts

Vader retains the double boost to his missile (needed vs high AG targets), Jonus gets a slight boost to his (moreso vs low PS lists), Vessery w/ high PS for dogfighting post strike. Vessery could also be a flank ship in this setup, as his lack of secondary weapon mean he doesn't need to fly in with the other two to maximize his effectiveness. The last point is flexible, VI could be any 1pt EPT for Vader or Vessery, or even put the squad at 99pts for an initiative bid.

3.1 - 100pts

Vader w/ squad leader & assault missile

Captain Jonus w/ concussion missile

Colonel Vessery w/ outmaneuver

A kind of hybrid of the two lists, it puts Vessery in a dedicated flank role and loses the 2nd splash, but still likely to kill the prime target, scratch the paint of any enemies nearby and looks to have very strong midgame.

I have a humble addition to make for the Version 3 variations.

100 Points

===

Vader + Squad Leader + Assault Missiles

Jonus + 2x Flechette Torpedo + Deadeye + Munitions Failsafe

Delta Defender + Ion Cannon + Ion Pulse Missiles

===

I designed this list as a somewhat specific counter against one of my own lists, and one I that I expect you may see a fair amount of in the coming months. Specifically, I was trying to build against a Wes, Wedge, and Biggs/Luke list, and in order to do that I added the redundancy of Deadeye and Vader's Squad Leader. Normally, when I'm against an Ordinance list with Wes, I'm going to strip Target Locks first because I can only choose one token (Evade, Focus, or TL) with his ability, and while getting rid of an Evade or Focus denies defenses (and allows for Opportunist shots from Wedge). However, this setup negates that by allow Jonus to have both a TL and a Focus at the same time, and being able to use either to fire his Ordinance, and it also allows Jonus to fire on targets who move into Ordinance range, after he has moved and acted.

Furthermore, since most X-Wings (and other lower Agility ships) aren't going to be using Stealth Device, the Ion Cannon, and Pulse missiles should provide some Control for the list, allowing you to get behind them and open fire without fear of retaliation. This should also be really nasty if you can get some stress on one of their ships from the Flechette Torps. Personally, I would use the Defender as a Flanker/Interference for the other two, though you may consider other tactics.

As a final aside, I'm not sure if two Flechettes and Munitions Failsafe is overkill or not, but it allows the possibility of a minimum of two uses, with the possibilty of more. They may be a waste of points, and grabbing something else for another pilot may be better (Munitions Failsafes for everyone!) or you could get rid of one for a PS bid.

I personally love putting homing missiles on Darth Vader. You get to keep your target lock when you fire so he can choose to use his 2nd action for position/defense/squad leader if you really want and still have a 4-dice attack with target lock, or more likely you use the 2nd action for focus and get a 4-dice attack with target lock and focus. Sure, the high end of Assault Missiles is higher, but getting there requires the opponent to cooperate.

I personally love putting homing missiles on Darth Vader. You get to keep your target lock when you fire so he can choose to use his 2nd action for position/defense/squad leader if you really want and still have a 4-dice attack with target lock, or more likely you use the 2nd action for focus and get a 4-dice attack with target lock and focus. Sure, the high end of Assault Missiles is higher, but getting there requires the opponent to cooperate.

The problem here is that Homing Missiles' maintained target-lock is redundant alongside Captain Jonus.

Well, partially redundant at least. Still gets you the evade token negation over Assault Missiles, which granted isn't worth that much. I guess I tend to run Vader as a little bit of a lone wolf to flank when I do run him, but probably not what this list is going for... never mind me.

I like the Idea of Vader+Outmaneuver+EU (Think of him now as a PTL interceptor with Shields that doesn't have to clear stress )

I would prefer to not have to use Jonus (I like having beefed up Primary attacks instead and so would like to drop him for a Gamma with a 4pt missile/torp)

The defender is awesome and I love it

I would try

Vader+Outmaneuver+EU

Jonus

Vessery+a 3pt upgrade (Outmaneuver/Marks would probably be my preferred choice as opposed to Ion pulse missiles)

that leaves 4pts worth of missiles/torpedoes, either a double barrel of Flechettes ifyou have 2 copies, a ion pulse + munitions failsafe on someone, or regular concussion/cluster missiles)

Or you could replace Vessery with Brath and predator and then just give Jonus flechette torpedoes, Jonus feels sorta expensive just to try to buff 2 people additional ships, maybe running cluster missiles on both the defender and Vader could make this less of an issue and set up a nice Alpha Strike (Clusters with Outmaneuver + Jonus rerolls could be Nasty on a 1 agility ship like the Falcon)

3.2 - 100pts

Vader w/ squad leader & assault missile

Jonus w/ deadeye, 2x flechette torpedo & munitions failsafe

Delta Defender w/ ion cannon & ion pulse missile

Humble but appreciated. I think the IPM is a suboptimal point use in this build. The flechettes will not stress any ship big enough to require the IPM, so the ion-stress combo is no go there. Since this is a very focused hard counter to XXX w/ Wes, I understand the desire to use the last few points for a general weapon vs big ship squads, but I think those 3 points (or 4 if you could bring yourself to part w/ failsafe) would be stronger spent as a seismic charge & initiative bid, upgrading Delta to Onyx & initiative bid, or dropping failsafe and IPM for engine upgrade on Vader to better protect your endgame piece & maximize his effectiveness once he gets there. I think those are safer choices for fighting non-Wes squads, and engine lets Vader dance around Wedge.

To Gundog8324, Jonus can serve several different purposes in this squad concept, but you're only using him in your list to give Vessery free locks. He's not worth the points if you only use him to enhance a single 3-4pt missile. I like your Vader loadout, but not here. You might try...

100pts

Vader w/ outmaneuver & engine upgrade

Rexlar Brath w/ predator

2x Academy TIE

or...

100pts

Vader w/ outmaneuver & engine upgrade

Colonel Vessery w/ outmaneuver & ion cannon (marksmanship works too)

Gamma w/ proton bomb

...but those are not alpha strike lists.

Wave 5 has buried soooo many threads and I'm not done here.

Within the 2.x series I have several variants of the following...

Vader w/ assault missile

Colonel Vessery w/ assault missile

Captain Jonus

and 4 unspent points.

2.1 & 2.3 both try and spend them well but I think there might be better options.

Also... VT-49 Decimator. I see that thing and I hear Nightmare from Soul Calibur II screaming "YEAOS!!!" in my head.

is an Engine upgrade for either Vader or Vessery one of the Options? You could also drop Vessery to a Delta and give Jonus Swarm Tactics (or Vader for that matter) since Vessery's ability would be Redundant if he were to stay in formation with Jonus (though as long as Jonus had a TL on Vessery's target Vessery flank, but then Vessery is only really buffing Vader)

I'll try to answer you in order, Gundog.

Is engine an option? Yes. Any 4pt upgrade or combination of upgrades adding up to 4pts is up for discussion. The question with engine upgrade is 'Where is it best placed, Vessery or Vader?' If Vader takes it, his point value comes closer to parity with Vessery (Vader 38 Vessery 40) but doesn't do enough in my opinion to encourage enemy fire away from Vessery (your biggest gun post missile launch, and still the highest point prize in a timed tournament round).

Yet, a funny dynamic comes into play if Vessery takes the engine upgrade. Vader with engine is much stronger in the endgame than he is without, and the point gulf widens (Vader 34 Vessery 44). This makes the bounty on Vessery even juicier, but giving him boost allows him to better evade enemy firing arcs. However, if Vessery is burning his actions playing the bait, his offense suffers and I'm not sure the weak guns on Jonus & Vader can apply enough pressure to finish the work the missiles started and get the enemy's numbers down to a level favorable for the endgame before Vessery falls to a determined opponent. The TL assist from Jonus helps somewhat, but maybe not enough to dedicate the Colonel's actions to survival. Then again, maybe they should be. Like I said, a funny dynamic.

On the topic of swarm tactics, I had not considered having Jonus carry it. The natural thought line is Vader makes more efficient use of the 2pts to bring a Delta up to 9 instead of 6 in combat, and if swarm tactics is on Vader, Delta can't use a missile since he can't TL high PS ships on the alpha strike round since they're out of range, so now Jonus need squad leader to give Delta a TL on Biggs, but that doesn't help against Howlrunner. So now, we swap out Delta's missile for an HLC, which is what my entire 1.x series of lists already covers in the OP and subsequent discussion w/ DraconPyrothayan.

Trying it your way we could put swarm on Jonus, squad leader on Vader, and keep the missile. Side by side they look like this...

95pts

Vader w/ squad leader & assault missile

Jonus w/ swarm tactics

Delta w/ assault missile

96pts

Vader w/ assault missile

Jonus

Vessery w/ assault missile

You free up an extra squad point and shift the baseline point parity between Vader and the Defender to a near tie before spending your remaining squad points, but now the whole squad is linked into a formation, with the defender losing 5 PS if he strays from Jonus, both EPT slots are occupied on J and V, you lose Vessery's pilot ability, and the Defender still activates at PS 1. This would open up some potential blocking, and squad leader from Vader could still allow some late arc dodging from the Delta, but now at the expense of the potency of Vader's own offense & defense.

The Vessery basebuild seems stronger and more flexible overall, which is why I'm focusing on improving it rather than rebuilding from the ground up.

Also, one thing I forgot to address from your first post, clusters, even with Jonus bonus (hey! that rhymes! I'm a Rhymer, flying w/ Jonus ) are probably too weak against a TIE swarm. We start 4 ships down in that match up, and while clusters are primetime vs large base ships, the shorter engagement range and single target effect is crippling in a Swarm matchup. Assault missiles will still put a crippling hurt on a big base, but doubled up forces the swarm to scatter, or eat massive damage, both of which help to make that matchup closer to winnable.