Are the uses for threat, listed in the Combat chapter (such as imposing Strain) universal, or are they only there for combat checks? That is, if you roll threat on a non-combat skill check, and generate threat, can that be used to cause strain? Does the answer change if you are out of combat?

I ask, because there's a player in my group who was going to roll a Perception (not in combat), but when he saw the dice pool, opted to not bother, because, even if he succeeded, he'd likely end up taking quite a bit of strain (his thoughts). I felt this was very metagame-y, and I'm not so sure that strain would be appropriate in this case.

I think they are mostly there for combat checks but there's no rule that says you can't impose Strain on someone for failing a Deception check or making them slip and drop their gun if they get a Despair on an out-of-combat Cool check or whatever.

But for your perusal, the Skills chapter lists some suggested options for what Advantage/Threat and Triumph/Despair mean when you're rolling each Skill outside of combat. These suggestions are found in the individual Skill descriptions in that chapter.

I would encourage them to still roll, and if it's out of combat, aim for the more narrative upsides and downsides described in the Skills chapter (versus the mechanical penalties from the combat chart). Remind them that even Failure, Threat, and Despair propel the story forward (the same as Success, Advantage, and Triumph) and aren't going to permanently cripple them or grind the story to a halt if they fail. But if they're specifically worried about the more mechanical consequences from the combat chart, aim to give them more narrative disadvantages to assuage their worries (and the poor fools, thinking Strain is the worst thing to happen to them, ha ha ha!)

I would say it should depend on the action in question.

If you are negotiating something, strain seems appropriate as you get stressed out from the rigor of negotiating.

If you are doing something else, like trying to leap over some crates, maybe instead of suffering strain instead you fall and scrape your knee in the act of leaping over and suffer a penalty to your next athletics check.

Suffering strain is a nice fallback because it can apply to just about anything, but I would encourage you to figure out other penalties that fit the narrative. But lots of the time strain is really the best option.

Well, I'm not running the game, but I'll pass the info along to my friend who is.

As for the other player being concerned about Strain, well, he doesn't have a very high ST (though it's gone up), and he apparently has picked up 3 ranks of Dodge, and likes to wade into combat with an ax, so he gets targeted a lot. As it was, in the combat that followed shortly thereafter he was a point away from falling unconscious due to Strain. I think that's okay, but he has a different mentality about these things.

That's the game working as intended (spending Strain as a resource). But if he does so and doesn't have a good roll to recover Strain after combat, he should consider investing in those stats.

I regularly apply Strain for non-combat threat. My favorite example: lying to a Hutt is bound to get your heart pounding.

If a player decides to roll, my house rule* is they have to roll, regardless of what they then discover about the dice pool. The character doesn't gain a sudden insight into the opposition just before they decide to act, there is no reason for the player to leverage this. To change their mind, in my reasoned and mature opinion, is uber-lame, candy-pants, crybaby, run-home-to-mommy kind of behaviour... I suppose I could be less mature and reserved about it, but no point being irritating

With all the games I've played before EotE, I rolled all NPC dice behind a screen. The PCs never knew what they were up against until things started. It shouldn't change in this game. For EotE, all the dice rolls are open, but the expectation is that players will role-play, not roll-play.

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* actually, I've never had to spell it out, I have a great group of players

the expectation is that players will role-play, not roll-play.

Now, this I don't agree with. I think players can make reasonable assumptions about what they're up against (whether that is correct or not is another story). The wookiee Marauder can decide whether or not trying to lie to a Hutt is IC in character, IC going to be believable, and OOC likely to result in really bad consequences. I don't consider that player's consideration a bad thing. What I consider bad is "can I roll? what's the difficulty? oh, wow, nevermind that seems too hard." Another great time to discuss how failing one roll doesn't ruin or end the game. But I see it as roleplaying when the group decides their charming Twi'lek smuggler will try to schmooze the Hutt crime lord, rather than their antisocial Weequay rifleman or whatever.

Mostly I just hate this dichotomy. I read roll-playing as some kind of derogatory call to actually using the game mechanics versus "telling a story" or whatnot. But I don't get deriding someone who considers the implications of using the rules and how that attempt could be more than mildly inconvenient. I don't see that as a bad characteristic in players or unreasonable for characters. Of course this is all before hearing "it's a high difficulty" and them backing off, though, like I said I think that's some metagamey BS.

I stick to the RAW because that's how the game was balanced. So I don't impose Strain via Threat outside of combat unless as Kshatriya pointed out there is some avenue for that result contained within the skill in question. Another reason is the rule book makes it pretty clear that recovery of Strain is not supposed to be a big deal in between combat encounters. If one applies Strain for non combat encounters then imo it's unfair to not allow players to attempt all post encounter methods of recovery, like simple Discipline/Cool check, a Medical check, etc. The point being even if you impose a couple three Strain in a non combat encounter, how hard is it to just recover from it post encounter? There seems little point to me so I don't do it, and I stick to strictly combat for imposing Strain for Threats.

the expectation is that players will role-play, not roll-play.

Now, this I don't agree with. I think players can make reasonable assumptions about what they're up against (whether that is correct or not is another story). The wookiee Marauder can decide whether or not trying to lie to a Hutt is IC in character, IC going to be believable, and OOC likely to result in really bad consequences. I don't consider that player's consideration a bad thing. What I consider bad is "can I roll? what's the difficulty? oh, wow, nevermind that seems too hard."

Well, that's all I meant. Once the player takes their intended action, despite discovering the dangers of the dice pool, then the character certainly has more information than they had before and the player can act accordingly.

Player: "I shoot at the Big Bad, he's at long range."

GM: "Okay, he has Adversary 3, so that's...RRR"

Player: "Oh, dang, okay...argh! A despair!"

...(next round)...

Player: "This guy's too tough, time to beat it!"

Maybe the term "roll-play" gets over-used, but it seems applicable to someone who wants to forego a roll based on what they learn mechanically. I'm not using it to mean anything more complicated than that. I suppose could use "metagamey" instead.

the expectation is that players will role-play, not roll-play.

Now, this I don't agree with. I think players can make reasonable assumptions about what they're up against (whether that is correct or not is another story). The wookiee Marauder can decide whether or not trying to lie to a Hutt is IC in character, IC going to be believable, and OOC likely to result in really bad consequences. I don't consider that player's consideration a bad thing. What I consider bad is "can I roll? what's the difficulty? oh, wow, nevermind that seems too hard."

Well, that's all I meant. Once the player takes their intended action, despite discovering the dangers of the dice pool, then the character certainly has more information than they had before and the player can act accordingly.

Player: "I shoot at the Big Bad, he's at long range."

GM: "Okay, he has Adversary 3, so that's...RRR"

Player: "Oh, dang, okay...argh! A despair!"

...(next round)...

Player: "This guy's too tough, time to beat it!"

Maybe the term "roll-play" gets over-used, but it seems applicable to someone who wants to forego a roll based on what they learn mechanically. I'm not using it to mean anything more complicated than that. I suppose could use "metagamey" instead.

Exactly. As opposed to:

Player: "I shoot at the Big Bad, he's at long range."

GM: "Okay, he has Adversary 3, so that's...RRR"

Player: "Oh, dang, nevermind! I shoot the minions instead!"

Which, to me (and you, obviously), is not okay.

Yup. Appreciate the clarification.

That's the game working as intended (spending Strain as a resource). But if he does so and doesn't have a good roll to recover Strain after combat, he should consider investing in those stats.

I agree. I certainly burn through strain on my character (I routinely spend 1 to use Intense Focus, and 2 more to perform some other maneuver (Aim, move, draw a weapon, take cover, whatever), although my ST is kind of high (15), and I have a pretty good shot at recovering after an encounter.

I regularly apply Strain for non-combat threat. My favorite example: lying to a Hutt is bound to get your heart pounding.

If a player decides to roll, my house rule* is they have to roll, regardless of what they then discover about the dice pool. The character doesn't gain a sudden insight into the opposition just before they decide to act, there is no reason for the player to leverage this. To change their mind, in my reasoned and mature opinion, is uber-lame, candy-pants, crybaby, run-home-to-mommy kind of behaviour... I suppose I could be less mature and reserved about it, but no point being irritating

I agree. That was party why I brought this up. Personally, if something seems like a bad idea, because it appears to be very difficult, that will give me pause (I argued vehemently against our pilot taking a shortcut through the Maw), but once the decision is made to make the attempt, the dice shouldn't change your intention,* and that's what my friend did--we were sitting in a crowded, noisy cantina, and were given the opportunity to roll Perception to notice/overhear two people talking to each other a few tables away. We all were set to roll, but when we were given the opposing dice pool, one of my friends opted to not bother. That seemed cheesy to me. The strain issue is part of what he cited when I brought it up after the game.

*I don't feel that this is necessarily the case for some activities, such as attempting a Piloting or Athletics check, if only because the GM may not have described the scene sufficiently to make an accurate decision, and the challenge only becomes apparent when you see the dice. This has come up a couple of times where, for example, we were all rushing to get out of a dilapidated shipwreck and rolled Athletics, only to discover that the place was in much worse condition that had been apparent. My character ended up failing horribly and missed the entire encounter thanks to taking more wounds than my WT, and over half my ST in strain, whereas if I had known that the decking was on the verge of collapse, that there were vines snaking across the floor, and water running across one section, I would have forgone the Athletics check and just made my way slowly and carefully.

I stick to the RAW because that's how the game was balanced. So I don't impose Strain via Threat outside of combat unless as Kshatriya pointed out there is some avenue for that result contained within the skill in question. Another reason is the rule book makes it pretty clear that recovery of Strain is not supposed to be a big deal in between combat encounters. If one applies Strain for non combat encounters then imo it's unfair to not allow players to attempt all post encounter methods of recovery, like simple Discipline/Cool check, a Medical check, etc. The point being even if you impose a couple three Strain in a non combat encounter, how hard is it to just recover from it post encounter? There seems little point to me so I don't do it, and I stick to strictly combat for imposing Strain for Threats.

I think there are situations that make sense for taking Strain outside of combat, but I find it hard to justify that in some situations, such as on a Perception check. Now, if there were an environmental hazard that made opening your eyes or taking off your protective gear to try and see/hear/feel/smell something, then sure, but otherwise, how are you straining yourself?

As for strain outside of combat being recoverable, the way we've been running it is that we're allowed to "catch our breath" when there is a significant lull between stresses. So, if we're in a tense social situation that devolves into combat, there's no time for that. Even if we're suffering a little strain for some minor tasks, if we aren't taking a break between them, it can build up. So, in the example that spurred this thread, I took a little strain dealing with a shady water seller, then a little more dealing with a thug harassing a mother and her child before heading into the cantina and settling down to take a look for our contact. We weren't seated long before we noticed the two people talking together, and then they came over to our table. There wasn't really enough time in there to unwind and center myself to recover strain from the minor encounters I'd had on the way to the cantina, so when our discussion erupted into combat, I still had some strain. That's fine by me, but out of combat strain can definitely be an issue on occasion.

By the same token, I feel that imposing strain in situations where there's simply not going to be any reason for that to be an issue (you're making an Astrogation check that will be followed by half a day's worth of hyperspace travel with nothing to do but rest) is just imposing unnecessary bookkeeping and is uninteresting. Those are situations where narrative results are a necessity.

Which is fine but even combat lets you recover once the encounter ends through a dice check and if you aren't letting your players attempt a Cool/Discipline check when whatever encounter they're in ends that's overly punitive imo. The game was balanced for Strain to be easily recoverable out of combat and if there are significant Strain penalties out of combat, that in addition to Obligation could set up a situation where a player is potentially unconscious if they open their mouths and the roll goes badly, so I don't do it.

I stick to the RAW because that's how the game was balanced. So I don't impose Strain via Threat outside of combat unless as Kshatriya pointed out there is some avenue for that result contained within the skill in question.

Where is this in RAW? Is it just because the combat table is the only place it's listed as an option? I'd say at best that's a potential argument for RAI, but little more.

If one applies Strain for non combat encounters then imo it's unfair to not allow players to attempt all post encounter methods of recovery, like simple Discipline/Cool check, a Medical check, etc.

Of course. A social encounter is an encounter just the same, and post-encounter downtime works the same. Outside of combat it may be a bit fuzzier as to when and how that happens: a party or a meet-and-greet of some kind might go on all evening, but certainly there will be moments where the PC can get away, grab a drink, hit the 'fresher, etc. I'd allow post-encounter recovery periodically for that.

The chart is called "Spending Threats and Despairs in Combat", in the combat section of the rulebook, where it details Threats can be counted as Strain against a player, that's pretty RAW I think.

Here's the problem as I see it. An Obligation roll goes badly for a player and they start with 4 Strain against their 12 Strain threshold beginning of the game. They get into a combat encounter and burn their Strain to the threshold surviving that and they only manage to recover 5 from their checks, so they're at 8. They go into a negotiation encounter and there wasn't sufficient time for the 'breather' and the roll goes badly so they faint?

Here's the problem as I see it. An Obligation roll goes badly for a player and they start with 4 Strain against their 12 Strain threshold beginning of the game. They get into a combat encounter and burn their Strain to the threshold surviving that and they only manage to recover 5 from their checks, so they're at 8. They go into a negotiation encounter and there wasn't sufficient time for the 'breather' and the roll goes badly so they faint?

I don't see a problem, really. Them's the breaks when you live life on the fringe.

But, as was said, not every Threat generated by a narrative-time roll should result in Strain. It makes sense for Social skills in high-stakes situations to do so (lying to a guard, etc). For Knowledge skills, I think Setbacks to future tests might be more appropriate. For Perception, seeing something you think is important but it isn't and you become distracted by it. For Streetwise, finding what you need but the seller doesn't trust you so he jacks up the price. Etc.

I get the concept people are talking about, but fainting on a skill check where I am talking to someone wouldn't leave me feeling terribly heroic, and I know I wouldn't be having any fun at that point. Plus in that style of play I'd have to horde my Strain and not use it in combat, which really is where 99% of Strain usage for Talents comes into play, for fear of falling unconscious in a social interaction? That's where I say Strain was balanced to be used in combat and if you're going to get knocked out by a bad conversation at the bar it turns balance on its head imo.

The chart is called "Spending Threats and Despairs in Combat", in the combat section of the rulebook, where it details Threats can be counted as Strain against a player, that's pretty RAW I think.

Here's the problem as I see it. An Obligation roll goes badly for a player and they start with 4 Strain against their 12 Strain threshold beginning of the game. They get into a combat encounter and burn their Strain to the threshold surviving that and they only manage to recover 5 from their checks, so they're at 8. They go into a negotiation encounter and there wasn't sufficient time for the 'breather' and the roll goes badly so they faint?

No. The GM and the players are free to narrate the outcome of an exceeded wound or strain threshold—you don't just always fall over unconscious because you think you're about to get ripped off on the sell price of a blaster after you wasted some guy in a spice trade gone bad. In this specific case, I'd probably describe it as "you start having a crisis" and the player might have some input like, "he goes Joe Pesci on the shopkeep, mouthing obscenities, and storms out of the shop leaving the rest of the party to conclude the transaction." Then a fellow group member gives him a Snickers and everything's all right.

I get the concept people are talking about, but fainting on a skill check where I am talking to someone wouldn't leave me feeling terribly heroic, and I know I wouldn't be having any fun at that point. Plus in that style of play I'd have to horde my Strain and not use it in combat, which really is where 99% of Strain usage for Talents comes into play, for fear of falling unconscious in a social interaction? That's where I say Strain was balanced to be used in combat and if you're going to get knocked out by a bad conversation at the bar it turns balance on its head imo.

Going with your previous example, if you end up with 8 net Threat after rolling, I'd say you have other problems. But if you're having that bad a day of getting knocked around and stressed, doesn't it make sense that you might later collapse in a tense investigation? I've seen that happen IRL.

Remember that the protagonists of the movies were often in really dire, some might say unheroic situations. Leia and Han's torture, Luke being knocked out by one hit from a Tusken Raider, R2 constantly getting blown up, etc.

I do like the idea that taking that much Strain might not mean "pass out," but in that case it does border on losing control of the character's actions, which is something few gamers are willing to do.

I stick to the RAW because that's how the game was balanced. So I don't impose Strain via Threat outside of combat unless as Kshatriya pointed out there is some avenue for that result contained within the skill in question. Another reason is the rule book makes it pretty clear that recovery of Strain is not supposed to be a big deal in between combat encounters. If one applies Strain for non combat encounters then imo it's unfair to not allow players to attempt all post encounter methods of recovery, like simple Discipline/Cool check, a Medical check, etc. The point being even if you impose a couple three Strain in a non combat encounter, how hard is it to just recover from it post encounter? There seems little point to me so I don't do it, and I stick to strictly combat for imposing Strain for Threats.

Well nothing is preventing you from periodically allowing the PCs to recover strain during narrative portions of the adventure.

They can always choose to go back to the ship to rest.

Heck, give them opportunities to recover Strain via some roleplay options during narrative segments.

Say something like "Well what would your character find relaxing?" and let them go do it.

Bounty Hunter spends an hour blasting the womp rats scurrying outside the city gates.

The Smuggler spends an hour playing some casual games of Sabacc and watching the Twi-lex dancers at the Cantina.

Politico spends an hour idly conversing with some prominent local citizens about the state of the galaxy.

Force sensitive character spends an hour meditating.

the expectation is that players will role-play, not roll-play.

Now, this I don't agree with. I think players can make reasonable assumptions about what they're up against (whether that is correct or not is another story). The wookiee Marauder can decide whether or not trying to lie to a Hutt is IC in character, IC going to be believable, and OOC likely to result in really bad consequences. I don't consider that player's consideration a bad thing. What I consider bad is "can I roll? what's the difficulty? oh, wow, nevermind that seems too hard."

Well, that's all I meant. Once the player takes their intended action, despite discovering the dangers of the dice pool, then the character certainly has more information than they had before and the player can act accordingly.

Player: "I shoot at the Big Bad, he's at long range."

GM: "Okay, he has Adversary 3, so that's...RRR"

Player: "Oh, dang, okay...argh! A despair!"

...(next round)...

Player: "This guy's too tough, time to beat it!"

Maybe the term "roll-play" gets over-used, but it seems applicable to someone who wants to forego a roll based on what they learn mechanically. I'm not using it to mean anything more complicated than that. I suppose could use "metagamey" instead.

Exactly. As opposed to:

Player: "I shoot at the Big Bad, he's at long range."

GM: "Okay, he has Adversary 3, so that's...RRR"

Player: "Oh, dang, nevermind! I shoot the minions instead!"

Which, to me (and you, obviously), is not okay.

I don't think that's the way the game was intended to work. The social contract that Jay Little has spoken of at length before is in the picking up of the dice. So it's entirely within the designed intent of the game to allow players to decide not to do something once they discover how difficult a task it is.

The dice, in this way, represent the coming-together of character knowledge and player knowledge. It's not the same as the DC in d20 systems. It'd be more akin to the GM in a d20 system saying, "Are you sure that Rorwarr wants to attack the Dark Jedi head-on? He sees him spinning around and deflecting blows; he's obviously a skilled melee combatant."

This is not metagaming. Metagaming would be reading the character stat block for the Forsaken Jedi and then having your character act on the knowledge you have regarding the NPC's Wound/Strain Thresholds, soak value, and so forth. But if it's logical that the player character would know that doing one thing is more difficult than the other, then it's reasonable to allow its player to rethink rolling a certain dice pool.

Let's say I, as the player, decide that I want my character to do something in-universe. I, the player, don't really have an idea of how difficult that something might be. But my character might know very well. When I, the player, see the dice pool, I then have the choice to accept the social contract by picking up the dice and committing my character to that action.

Of course, if the player has done something to commit to the action, it's totally within the GM's rights to say, "Sorry, that's the dice pool, so if you wanna take an action this round it's gotta be that one." This should be a fairly reasonable matter and should not be the default position of the GM. But if a player is constantly trying to locate the easiest dice roll and "pinging" the GM for various to-hit difficulties, the GM could just tell the player to crap or get off the pot

Maybe there is a middle ground.

The player can decide if he wants to roll or not once he sees the dice pool, but the GM can wait till he decides to roll or not to use Destiny points.

Ultimately, its probably important to draw the line at "what the PC could reasonably know"

He would know the range to the target, the difficulty of cover, and possibly any Adversary ranks he might have.

He might not know if he has a personal shield generator or what kind of armor he's wearing or other less obvious bonuses(like destiny deciding to screw you over)

The chart is called "Spending Threats and Despairs in Combat", in the combat section of the rulebook, where it details Threats can be counted as Strain against a player, that's pretty RAW I think.

Here's the problem as I see it. An Obligation roll goes badly for a player and they start with 4 Strain against their 12 Strain threshold beginning of the game. They get into a combat encounter and burn their Strain to the threshold surviving that and they only manage to recover 5 from their checks, so they're at 8. They go into a negotiation encounter and there wasn't sufficient time for the 'breather' and the roll goes badly so they faint?

No. The GM and the players are free to narrate the outcome of an exceeded wound or strain threshold—you don't just always fall over unconscious because you think you're about to get ripped off on the sell price of a blaster after you wasted some guy in a spice trade gone bad. In this specific case, I'd probably describe it as "you start having a crisis" and the player might have some input like, "he goes Joe Pesci on the shopkeep, mouthing obscenities, and storms out of the shop leaving the rest of the party to conclude the transaction." Then a fellow group member gives him a Snickers and everything's all right.

If you aren't going to bother applying the mechanical effect in the RAW for exceeding Strain threshold then why count Threats as Stain at all? Seems to me you could just easily narrate a bad deal and not count Strain at all and still suffer the crisis.

Well I actually invoked a setback die on a perception check but it was the beginner game the guy generated a lot of threat so I just narrated it. "Well, you looked up at the water tower but forgot you were on Tatooine and looked right at the two burning suns." That invoked a setback die on what happened next because he missed the stormtroopers. He also rolled enough threat I gave him a point of strain for almost burning out his retinas. He thought it was fair in that case. As for players metgaming it I have yet to run into that but I would rule it once you decided to do something you are committed to doing it even if the dice pool comes back at you with a lot of red. That just me though but most of my players have been the sort where they just look at the die and are more like, "To hell with the prime directive lets kill something."

I stick to the RAW because that's how the game was balanced. So I don't impose Strain via Threat outside of combat unless as Kshatriya pointed out there is some avenue for that result contained within the skill in question. Another reason is the rule book makes it pretty clear that recovery of Strain is not supposed to be a big deal in between combat encounters. If one applies Strain for non combat encounters then imo it's unfair to not allow players to attempt all post encounter methods of recovery, like simple Discipline/Cool check, a Medical check, etc. The point being even if you impose a couple three Strain in a non combat encounter, how hard is it to just recover from it post encounter? There seems little point to me so I don't do it, and I stick to strictly combat for imposing Strain for Threats.

Well nothing is preventing you from periodically allowing the PCs to recover strain during narrative portions of the adventure.

They can always choose to go back to the ship to rest.

Heck, give them opportunities to recover Strain via some roleplay options during narrative segments.

Say something like "Well what would your character find relaxing?" and let them go do it.

Bounty Hunter spends an hour blasting the womp rats scurrying outside the city gates.

The Smuggler spends an hour playing some casual games of Sabacc and watching the Twi-lex dancers at the Cantina.

Politico spends an hour idly conversing with some prominent local citizens about the state of the galaxy.

Force sensitive character spends an hour meditating.

That's not the issue though, because it you're just going to let them easily recover it why charge it in the first place?