I think part of the problem with Rebel Aces (and it's perception) is that many saw Imperial Aces as a 'fix' to the TIE Interceptor to make it playable. While I think that's only partially true, it's still an expansion. Was the X-Wing put into the Rebel Transport to make it more playable? Why is there backlash against Rebel Aces, but not the X-Wing in the transport? IMO the droids and pilots from the GR75 box are going to be more impactful in the long run then Rebel Aces, and we should stop looking at reprints as purely 'fixes' and expecting them to make all of the past imbalances go away.

There has been backlash against the X-Wing in the transport. Man that droid that gives stress and the flechette torpedo was the doom of the Interceptor and made him useless, Empire was screwed.

But that is so 3 months ago! Now, it's the Rebel Aces time to bring doom.

Part of the silliness you're describing here is that far more people than I ever would have expected are adopting identities as "Imperial players" or "Rebel players" rather than X-wing Miniatures players. If you voluntarily cut yourself off from half of the content in the game, I guess I can understand how it would be frustrating to see the other side getting new toys, but… the solution seems pretty obvious.

I... don't agree with this sentiment. The solution to a mismatch in variety between the two sides should not be "then go play the other side." While yes, complaining that you can't fly R2 units with your ships as the Empire is silly, doing so for the lack of unique characters, upgrades or huge ships for the Empire is not. Those upgrades and ships add a ton of variety for builds and are incredibly fun to play with. And in my opinion, both sides should be just as much fun to play with. There is nothing wrong with both sides having unique things, but they should both have the same amount of unique things to play with. Not for gameplay balance, but because it's fun.

That's not what I meant, though. I think there are two things going on: the first is that there's currently a lack of parity in releases, which is unfortunate (because everyone likes to get new stuff) but probably temporary and doesn't imply problems with game balance in any case. The second is that I see a lot of posts implying that Rebels are better, or more interesting, or more varied, or simply more fun, and I think that's… I don't know, grass-greener-ism?

So it's not a matter of "if you don't like the Empire, go play Rebels"; it's that the belief that the Empire is constantly getting the short end of the stick runs contrary to the evidence, and so does the idea that there's only a single competitive kind of Imperial list. And it's much easier to see that evidence if you take a step back from being an Imperial-only booster and look at the game from a broader perspective.

Well, there certainly is more variety on the rebel side. Unique crew and a unique -and growing- list of upgrades does mean that there are more options available to the Rebels than there are to the Imperials. Are they "better?" Well, no. There are still Imperial builds that kick ass left right and center, but it's impossible to deny that the Rebels have more variety in what they can put on the table. The Rebels getting two big ships while the Empire has not even heard an announcement of one yet (though I suspect that will change when Gencon starts) does not help this one bit.

If you define "short end of the stick" as "does one side win all the time?" then no, nobody has the short end of the stick. But if you define it as "do both sides have an equal variety in what they can put on the field?" then yes, the Empire has the short end right now.

A greater variety in what the Empire has (more bomb types and unique Imperial crew) would go a long way. Imperial big ships should be on the horizon as well.

(something to counter the Falcon or turrets in general).

Outmaneuver is great against Falcons and turret ships in general.

It helps, but it doesn't quite work against the main disadvantage of most Imperial ships. Which is that they are, at their core, designed to stay out of firing arcs. An advantage which turrets just plain negate.

Part of the silliness you're describing here is that far more people than I ever would have expected are adopting identities as "Imperial players" or "Rebel players" rather than X-wing Miniatures players. If you voluntarily cut yourself off from half of the content in the game, I guess I can understand how it would be frustrating to see the other side getting new toys, but… the solution seems pretty obvious.

I... don't agree with this sentiment. The solution to a mismatch in variety between the two sides should not be "then go play the other side." While yes, complaining that you can't fly R2 units with your ships as the Empire is silly, doing so for the lack of unique characters, upgrades or huge ships for the Empire is not. Those upgrades and ships add a ton of variety for builds and are incredibly fun to play with. And in my opinion, both sides should be just as much fun to play with. There is nothing wrong with both sides having unique things, but they should both have the same amount of unique things to play with. Not for gameplay balance, but because it's fun.

That's not what I meant, though. I think there are two things going on: the first is that there's currently a lack of parity in releases, which is unfortunate (because everyone likes to get new stuff) but probably temporary and doesn't imply problems with game balance in any case. The second is that I see a lot of posts implying that Rebels are better, or more interesting, or more varied, or simply more fun, and I think that's… I don't know, grass-greener-ism?

So it's not a matter of "if you don't like the Empire, go play Rebels"; it's that the belief that the Empire is constantly getting the short end of the stick runs contrary to the evidence, and so does the idea that there's only a single competitive kind of Imperial list. And it's much easier to see that evidence if you take a step back from being an Imperial-only booster and look at the game from a broader perspective.

Well, there certainly is more variety on the rebel side. Unique crew and a unique -and growing- list of upgrades does mean that there are more options available to the Rebels than there are to the Imperials. Are they "better?" Well, no. There are still Imperial builds that kick ass left right and center, but it's impossible to deny that the Rebels have more variety in what they can put on the table. The Rebels getting two big ships while the Empire has not even heard an announcement of one yet (though I suspect that will change when Gencon starts) does not help this one bit.

If you define "short end of the stick" as "does one side win all the time?" then no, nobody has the short end of the stick. But if you define it as "do both sides have an equal variety in what they can put on the field?" then yes, the Empire has the short end right now.

A greater variety in what the Empire has (more bomb types and unique Imperial crew) would go a long way. Imperial big ships should be on the horizon as well.

(something to counter the Falcon or turrets in general).

Outmaneuver is great against Falcons and turret ships in general.

It helps, but it doesn't quite work against the main disadvantage of most Imperial ships. Which is that they are, at their core, designed to stay out of firing arcs. An advantage which turrets just plain negate.

Still... A card/upgrade of sorts granting one less red die or extra green dice or even an evade vs turrets when not in the front arc would go a long, long way.

My main gripe is that R3 turrets (yes, that is you YT) make manoevering all-but obsolete.

In a game in which manoever should be key.

Is the swarm powerful? Hell yes if/when played with skill.

Is the YT powerful? Hell yes. Doubly so if/when used with a gunner. A 3 year old can play that.

Part of the silliness you're describing here is that far more people than I ever would have expected are adopting identities as "Imperial players" or "Rebel players" rather than X-wing Miniatures players. If you voluntarily cut yourself off from half of the content in the game, I guess I can understand how it would be frustrating to see the other side getting new toys, but… the solution seems pretty obvious.

I... don't agree with this sentiment. The solution to a mismatch in variety between the two sides should not be "then go play the other side." While yes, complaining that you can't fly R2 units with your ships as the Empire is silly, doing so for the lack of unique characters, upgrades or huge ships for the Empire is not. Those upgrades and ships add a ton of variety for builds and are incredibly fun to play with. And in my opinion, both sides should be just as much fun to play with. There is nothing wrong with both sides having unique things, but they should both have the same amount of unique things to play with. Not for gameplay balance, but because it's fun.

That's not what I meant, though. I think there are two things going on: the first is that there's currently a lack of parity in releases, which is unfortunate (because everyone likes to get new stuff) but probably temporary and doesn't imply problems with game balance in any case. The second is that I see a lot of posts implying that Rebels are better, or more interesting, or more varied, or simply more fun, and I think that's… I don't know, grass-greener-ism?

So it's not a matter of "if you don't like the Empire, go play Rebels"; it's that the belief that the Empire is constantly getting the short end of the stick runs contrary to the evidence, and so does the idea that there's only a single competitive kind of Imperial list. And it's much easier to see that evidence if you take a step back from being an Imperial-only booster and look at the game from a broader perspective.

Well, there certainly is more variety on the rebel side. Unique crew and a unique -and growing- list of upgrades does mean that there are more options available to the Rebels than there are to the Imperials. Are they "better?" Well, no. There are still Imperial builds that kick ass left right and center, but it's impossible to deny that the Rebels have more variety in what they can put on the table. The Rebels getting two big ships while the Empire has not even heard an announcement of one yet (though I suspect that will change when Gencon starts) does not help this one bit.

If you define "short end of the stick" as "does one side win all the time?" then no, nobody has the short end of the stick. But if you define it as "do both sides have an equal variety in what they can put on the field?" then yes, the Empire has the short end right now.

A greater variety in what the Empire has (more bomb types and unique Imperial crew) would go a long way. Imperial big ships should be on the horizon as well.

(something to counter the Falcon or turrets in general).

Outmaneuver is great against Falcons and turret ships in general.

It helps, but it doesn't quite work against the main disadvantage of most Imperial ships. Which is that they are, at their core, designed to stay out of firing arcs. An advantage which turrets just plain negate.

Still... A card/upgrade of sorts granting one less red die or extra green dice or even an evade vs turrets when not in the front arc would go a long, long way.

My main gripe is that R3 turrets (yes, that is you YT) make manoevering all-but obsolete.

In a game in which manoever should be key.

Is the swarm powerful? Hell yes if/when played with skill.

Is the YT powerful? Hell yes. Doubly so if/when used with a gunner. A 3 year old can play that.

Basically, I think Interceptors are getting better. Still not reliable enough for me to run them in a tournament, but they're not fitting into the playstyle I've found for the game(big guns and cheap blockers)

I agree that the game is not broken. I do not like the fact that FFG had a scenario where the two sides were more clearly defined. Rebels had expensive but powerful ships that could take a beating and give a beating while they were at it. The empire felt just like the movies. Run one or two named Pilots and have a swarm of nobodies along for the ride. Now with Rebel Aces and the Z-95 you have the Rebels able to horn into that area that was clearly the empires turf. And on top of that change they went all out in ways to destroy the swarm in the form of munitions failsafe and Lt. Blount. If I am going to a competitive environment I will really be scared to bring a classic swarm because there is a definite hard counter to it. One damage to all ships in a swarm from Blount could be very hard to deal with. If I am rebels I add him in to my list if at all possible just for that reason. In my area swarm is still king. Maybe that's not what you all play against though. I enjoy flying against swarms, to me it's the biggest challenge the game offered.

The swarm needed a bit of a check. The Z-95 will never swarm as well as Ties, simply because they lack Howlrunner, but now with the advent of Blount as you mentioned, cluster flying is no longer incredibly wise. It'll be nice to see Swarms have to fly spread out and individually a little more. The Z-95 is going to facilitate a few 6 ship lists, but nothing like the Tie Swarm.

I'm amazed people aren't excited for the new metagame. I'm happy we might see more squads that are strictly fighter craft.

I actually welcome such threads, it ultimately means FFG is still keeping the strategy of two distinct factions with distinct features. Too many games (whatever type) go the way of simply mirroring sides in all functional elements and reducing differences to style and general fluff - just to make balancing easier.

I fear the times when a release doesn't incite riots on the main forums, because then they either gave up on that strategy or the game is just plain dead.... (*)

besides, those threads are fun to read.

(*)or the players are too stupid to notice the difference, which isn't good either

The swarm needed a bit of a check.

I do not mind too much a counter to the Swarm.

But it sure would be nice to add something which neuters turrets a bit.

Makes things even no? Rebels get counters vs certain types of typical Imperial builds should mean Imperial lists get some counters vs some of the more obvious rebel builds?

Absolutely! Turrets are deadly to most imperial Ships. If they get to horn into the empires arena then why not allow imperial turrets?

I'd much prefer an upgrade which reduces a turret attack (minus 1 red die for example) when not in the front arc.

This would not render turrets useless, it would be in the place of a hull or shield or engine upgrade so decidedly not a no-brainer but at the same time it would reward careful flying.

That and it woudl still retain the flavour of empire vs rebels IMO.

Having said that; odds are there are much, much better ideas out there but alas I have not come up with those.

I think people are putting way too much stock in Blount here. If all it took was one Assault Missile splash to kill the swarm dead, Vader has a 70% chance to land the splash. A Bomber with Jonus gets that up around 90%. Neither has turned into some magical cure for the swarm, and that's before you put them on a ship which is otherwise useless after that first shot.

Multiple Assault Missiles can hose a swarm badly. One does not. Which means Blount does not.

Honestly, I suspect that Blount will be a trap for playing against the swarm. Players will be tempted, or even forced due to his fragility, into firing bad shots just to get the guaranteed splash. Giving up the main hit actually hurts. Sure you want the splash, but a good initial shot is still a solid 4 attack if you do it right.

Turrets are annoying. And I dislike the falcon more than most. But honestly, it has weaknesses. If you nerf turrets you nerf the hawk and the Y-Wing(and the Tantive, which already has issues hitting anything), and that is frankly unnacceptable, as they need the help turrets give immensley.

The Falcon is good. It's annoying. But any list with a Falcon suffers a huge loss in firepower. 42+points for a single 3 power gun... It's frankly barely worth it. Imperials have all the tools they need to beat the falcon already. Firesprays, Lambdas, and Bombers all give Falcons fits. Tie Swarms love to face Falcons, as the best answer to a Tie Swarm is to wipe them out fast. Falcons are one of the weakest per point offenses in the game, only made viable by their turrets, and the level of modification available for them.

I expect to see an imperial turret someday, just as much as I expect rebels to get bombs someday but I would rather see faction specific "technological advances" that counter the enemies biggest advantage...not counter perhaps, but provide a benefit against it as Elkerlyc suggests.

Modification:

Flash flare- Discard this card, an enemy at range 1-2 may not fire at you from outside of their front arc.

Turret Decoy- Discard this card, when an enemy declares you the target of an attack and you are outside it's firing arc you may reroll any of your dice.

Deflective plating: when attacked by a target from outside of their front firing arc, if they are in your front firing arc, you may treat all critical hits as normal hits.

EPT:

Eyes on the prize: When declared the target of an attack by a ship in your primary firing arc, and you are not in their front firing arc, you may take a free focus or evade action.

Evasive Action: When declared the target of an attack by a ship outside it's front firing arc, you may take an evade or barrel roll action.

Turret Combat Training:When declared the target of an attack and you are outside that ships front firing arc, you are considered to be at 1 range band farther out. If this makes you an invalid target for an attack, gain a focus token and the opponent may select another target.

Missile:

Decoy Missile: When an attacker in range 1-3 spends his target lock you may discard this card, that attacks dice may not be modified.

Such things are just off the top of my head and have not been combo checked nor price checked! But there are things that could be done that would add options to the game. Most of these are not turret specific but obviously would help combat turrets.

Similarly to combat swarms:

EPT:

Roll with the Hits: When you suffer 2 or more uncancelled hits in a round, you may perform a BR action in any direction.

"I CAN HOLD IT": When you suffer hull damage and are not destroyed, gain a focus token

"AHHHHHHHH!": When you are destroyed, you may perform a speed 1 bank or straight maneuver. If you collide with any ship, it takes 1 damage.

Modification:

Comm Splicer- Action: you may choose to be treated as "friendly" when determining the effects of pilot skills or EPTs

Forward deflector Shields- At the beginning of combat, if you are in the front arc of 3 or more ships, gain an evade token. You may only spend evade tokens this round vs. attackers who are in your front arc.

Absolutely! Turrets are deadly to most imperial Ships. If they get to horn into the empires arena then why not allow imperial turrets?

Define "most", because it looks to me like 2 1/2 out of 8. (TIE Fighters care, but TIE swarms don't.)

That is, my Wave 2 tournament list was Krassis + HLC + Seismic/Bounty Hunter/Dark Curse, and turrets didn't bother me at all. One of my current lists is Jonus + Squad Leader + Homing/2x Gamma + Protons + Clusters/Alpha, and I'm really happy to see my opponent show up with half of his or her list wrapped up in a neat little package for my Clusters to tear apart.

I agree that it would be nice to see a little bit of pushback from FFG against turrets--but we already have Outmaneuver, and I suspect other fixes may trickle in.

Absolutely! Turrets are deadly to most imperial Ships. If they get to horn into the empires arena then why not allow imperial turrets?

Define "most", because it looks to me like 2 1/2 out of 8. (TIE Fighters care, but TIE swarms don't.)

That is, my Wave 2 tournament list was Krassis + HLC + Seismic/Bounty Hunter/Dark Curse, and turrets didn't bother me at all. One of my current lists is Jonus + Squad Leader + Homing/2x Gamma + Protons + Clusters/Alpha, and I'm really happy to see my opponent show up with half of his or her list wrapped up in a neat little package for my Clusters to tear apart.

I agree that it would be nice to see a little bit of pushback from FFG against turrets--but we already have Outmaneuver, and I suspect other fixes may trickle in.

I think Phantoms, Interceptors, and Defenders all have some Falcon issues, along with non swarm ties, but all of them eat Y-Wings and Hawks alive so it isn't turrets. It's the Falcon.

A smart Phantom will be rolling 4v2 and taking 3v5 in return. Yes, arc dodging is going to be something the Phantom excels at, but it's hardly going to be the only tool in the box.

I know you don't really consider that valid, since it involves dice, but the Phantom is hardly in the same "losing its only defense" category as an Interceptor.

I think Phantoms, Interceptors, and Defenders all have some Falcon issues, along with non swarm ties, but all of them eat Y-Wings and Hawks alive so it isn't turrets. It's the Falcon.

A smart Phantom will be rolling 4v2 and taking 3v5 in return. Yes, arc dodging is going to be something the Phantom excels at, but it's hardly going to be the only tool in the box.

I know you don't really consider that valid, since it involves dice, but the Phantom is hardly in the same "losing its only defense" category as an Interceptor.

That said, no they aren't as screwed as Squints. But they still have a weakness there.

Absolutely! Turrets are deadly to most imperial Ships. If they get to horn into the empires arena then why not allow imperial turrets?

Define "most", because it looks to me like 2 1/2 out of 8. (TIE Fighters care, but TIE swarms don't.)

That is, my Wave 2 tournament list was Krassis + HLC + Seismic/Bounty Hunter/Dark Curse, and turrets didn't bother me at all. One of my current lists is Jonus + Squad Leader + Homing/2x Gamma + Protons + Clusters/Alpha, and I'm really happy to see my opponent show up with half of his or her list wrapped up in a neat little package for my Clusters to tear apart.

I agree that it would be nice to see a little bit of pushback from FFG against turrets--but we already have Outmaneuver, and I suspect other fixes may trickle in.

I think Phantoms, Interceptors, and Defenders all have some Falcon issues, along with non swarm ties, but all of them eat Y-Wings and Hawks alive so it isn't turrets. It's the Falcon.

From what I have seen so far, Falcons have some Defender issues.

Absolutely! Turrets are deadly to most imperial Ships. If they get to horn into the empires arena then why not allow imperial turrets?

Define "most", because it looks to me like 2 1/2 out of 8. (TIE Fighters care, but TIE swarms don't.)

That is, my Wave 2 tournament list was Krassis + HLC + Seismic/Bounty Hunter/Dark Curse, and turrets didn't bother me at all. One of my current lists is Jonus + Squad Leader + Homing/2x Gamma + Protons + Clusters/Alpha, and I'm really happy to see my opponent show up with half of his or her list wrapped up in a neat little package for my Clusters to tear apart.

I agree that it would be nice to see a little bit of pushback from FFG against turrets--but we already have Outmaneuver, and I suspect other fixes may trickle in.

I think Phantoms, Interceptors, and Defenders all have some Falcon issues, along with non swarm ties, but all of them eat Y-Wings and Hawks alive so it isn't turrets. It's the Falcon.

From what I have seen so far, Falcons have some Defender issues.

Unless the Falcon has a higherPS or equal PS and initiative. Han with vet instincts is THE phantom counter, followed by Roark backing another falcon. Not much a smart Phantom can do when they got shot before they cloak. At least not so far.

That said, no they aren't as screwed as Squints. But they still have a weakness there.

Even if it's a tricked-out Han, the dice shifts to 4v2 and 3v3. Not a horrible trade for something that's at least 10, and probably more like 20 points down. And who flies Han any more, anyway?

Of course there's a weakness there. There SHOULD be a weakness there.The Falcon's a very expensive, hard-hitting ship that normally rolls in anywhere from 50-60 points. If you compare that 1v1 to anything else in the game, of course it's going to be better, and it deserves to be better. Is the Phantom at any more of a disadvantage than any other ship? Not really, and less so than most. If the main corner case is Han+VI, it's in pretty good shape.

Unless the Falcon has a higherPS or equal PS and initiative. Han with vet instincts is THE phantom counter, followed by Roark backing another falcon. Not much a smart Phantom can do when they got shot before they cloak. At least not so far.

That said, no they aren't as screwed as Squints. But they still have a weakness there.

Even if it's a tricked-out Han, the dice shifts to 4v2 and 3v3. Not a horrible trade for something that's at least 10, and probably more like 20 points down. And who flies Han any more, anyway?

Of course there's a weakness there. There SHOULD be a weakness there.The Falcon's a very expensive, hard-hitting ship that normally rolls in anywhere from 50-60 points. If you compare that 1v1 to anything else in the game, of course it's going to be better, and it deserves to be better. Is the Phantom at any more of a disadvantage than any other ship? Not really, and less so than most. If the main corner case is Han+VI, it's in pretty good shape.

In the end I'm not calling it unbalanced, but there is a turret weakness there. Not a devastating one, but one as bad as any ship other than the Interceptor.

Except that without it's cloak dice it's the most fragile ship in the game for the points as well. In the time it tanks Han to kill the Phantom, the Phantom is unlikely to have earned it's points.

In the end I'm not calling it unbalanced, but there is a turret weakness there. Not a devastating one, but one as bad as any ship other than the Interceptor.

If the "turret weakness" extends to a single pilot with a specific upgrade, there is not a "turret weakness" there.

Except that without it's cloak dice it's the most fragile ship in the game for the points as well. In the time it tanks Han to kill the Phantom, the Phantom is unlikely to have earned it's points.

In the end I'm not calling it unbalanced, but there is a turret weakness there. Not a devastating one, but one as bad as any ship other than the Interceptor.

If the "turret weakness" extends to a single pilot with a specific upgrade, there is not a "turret weakness" there.

Say what you will about clever phantom pilots, Clever Falcon pilots are their weakness.

So based on the last page or 2 (might be thread crossing a little) of responses it seems like the true meta issues are 1 Imperial pilot and 1 Rebel pilot: Howlrunner and Han.

So based on the last page or 2 (might be thread crossing a little) of responses it seems like the true meta issues are 1 Imperial pilot and 1 Rebel pilot: Howlrunner and Han.

Not at all. There are no real Meta issues. There are a few balance ones, specifically the overcost of pilot skill in earlier Metagames. That's being addressed.

Otherwise we have a very balanced meta, and will probably continue to do so.