In a balanced game, there is going to be differences in what is winning. That is the ESSENCE of a balanced game. So what if Rebels are starting to get their wins in. In a balanced game, they will get their wins in. But, I am not seeing the supposed imbalance. Quite a few different squads were winning Store Championships. And I'm seeing some neat variations on the Swarm, along with some neat squads that can only happen in Imperials.

What is going on here is people who like to play Imperials, are envious of the options the Rebels are getting. Even though they have just gotten 2 of the most unique ships in the game. But, they lack unique upgrades, so the game isn't balanced. And despite what some are claiming, Jake and Farlander are not some new power defining pieces. They are good pilots, sure. And you will get to pick which one you prefer.

In a balanced game, there is going to be differences in what is winning. That is the ESSENCE of a balanced game. So what if Rebels are starting to get their wins in. In a balanced game, they will get their wins in. But, I am not seeing the supposed imbalance. Quite a few different squads were winning Store Championships. And I'm seeing some neat variations on the Swarm, along with some neat squads that can only happen in Imperials.

What is going on here is people who like to play Imperials, are envious of the options the Rebels are getting. Even though they have just gotten 2 of the most unique ships in the game. But, they lack unique upgrades, so the game isn't balanced. And despite what some are claiming, Jake and Farlander are not some new power defining pieces. They are good pilots, sure. And you will get to pick which one you prefer.

I just looked over the upgrades/tactics available and I noticed something interesting. I left out anything that can be taken by both sides (EPT's, Missiles, Torpedoes) and I did not include Epic play only cards (not a balanced look, yet).

Empire vs Rebel Upgrades/Tactics

Turrets (3 Rebel, 0 Empire) Rebel

Swarm ships [base pilot is 5 or more in 100points] (Empire 2; Tie x 8, Alpha Int x 5, Scimitar x 6; Rebel 2; Z-95 x8, Proto with Ch.R. x 6) Empire

Droids (Rebel 12, 0 Empire) Rebel

Crew (Rebels 3, Empire 2) Rebel

Ion Lock and Counter (Rebel 2, Empire 0) Rebel

Big Ships [non Epic] (Rebel 1, Empire 2) Empire

Titles (Rebel 3, Empire 3) Tied

Canon Carrying ships (Rebel 1, Empire 3) Empire

Sensors Ships (Rebel 2, Empire 2) Tied

Bombs (Empire 2, Rebel 0) Empire

Mods (Empire 1, Rebel 0) Empire

Fortressing (Rebel 3, Empire 1) Rebels

Rebels have: Turrets, Ion lock + counter, Droids, Fortressing.

Empire has: *Swarms, Bombs, Canons, Big Ships, Modification.

Rebels have the advantage in Turrets, ionizing ships, Fortressing, and droid upgrades.

Empire have more big ships, more canon capable ships, use bombs, have one modification and title.

Maybe Empire squads need to be building more to these strengths...

P.S. I would like to apologize for my earlier snarkiness. I play Empire mostly in my game group and I'm finding it harder and harder to list build with the Empire side and not start to envy the options on the rebel side. Their stuff just works better.

*Edit, added bombers, Prototype title

Maybe Empire squads need to be building more to these strengths...

This assumes that the empires strengths are equally as strong as their rebel counterparts. Bombs vs. Turrets? Not even close. 1 big ship more vs. Droids? Depends on if you're counting the shuttle or the firespray as the "1 more". Not sure what you mean by "fortressing" and the rebels titles are: moldy crow, MF, Awing Test Vs. Royal Guard, Slave 1, and STI-321... looks pretty even to me. Ion vs. Cannons... I reserve judgement until I see more action from the Defender.

This also assumes that all of these strengths work together in a coherent list.

Rebels having the monopoly on turrets gives them an enormous advantage. If Imps do not fly with quite a bit of precision then the reb's are going to dice them up. I find when flying the Falcon that it is easy to keep in range and out of the majority of enemy firing arcs after the alpha engagement. Flying rebels is much much easier then empire. If you have a bad crash with an imperial tie or int it's is probably dead. And now the rebels will have the A-wing as an incredibly cheap 3 evade flanker that I think is going to change the entire game for the Rebels. For 20 points you will get mini vader that has the best dial in the game.

What you're asking isn't reasonable. We don't need more Imperial Specific crew members. They don't have the characters to back it up unless you want Bossk suddenly helping fly a shuttle, or IG-88 Copiloting the Slave I. They are the faceless horder. That's what they get.

And we've listed at least half a dozen non-swarm lists that work for imperials. They have other lists, and good ones. Stop trying to make the imperials build like the rebels. Differences between factions are good. If you feel like your imperial lists are stagnating then try something new. See what a hybrid swarm with bombers and ties can do. Try out out Interceptor howlrunner swarm. But don't complain that they aren't as customizable. It's missing the whole point of the imperials.

I mean, do we really want Jendon and Kagi as crew members like we get Han or Chewie? Not really. Do we want Tarkin as a crew. Yes, but he has to come with something a little bigger than the Shuttle.

Your complaint. It's not a big deal. Cardboard is bad. Run as little as you can. Only add things that are always worth the cost.

The no unique characters is not exactly true. There are a ton of named moffs, admirals, and generals.

Go back and look at the original star wars card game there are alot of empirial characters you could add especially if you use the EU characters that may or may not exsist.

1) Swarm ships [base pilot is 5 or more in 100points] (Empire 2; Tie x 8, Alpha Int x 5; Rebel 2; Z-95 x8, Proto with Ch.R. x 6) Tied

2) Crew (Rebels 3, Empire 2) Rebel

3) Fortressing (Rebel 3, Empire 1) Rebels

1) Leaving out whether or not it's a good idea to swarm with said ships, you forgot the Bomber at 16 (x5).

2) Rebels also have far more Unique Crew. Luke, Chewie, Nien, with Han, Leia, Jan, Kyle, C3P0, and R2-D2 on the way. To the Empire's Vader and Captive.

3) I have no idea what that means.

For me, it's absolutely not an issue of game balance - because the game is balanced. I just really enjoy being able to customize ships and, rightly or wrongly, it simply feels like the Rebels have a lot more options in that respect.

What you're asking isn't reasonable. We don't need more Imperial Specific crew members. They don't have the characters to back it up unless you want Bossk suddenly helping fly a shuttle, or IG-88 Copiloting the Slave I. They are the faceless horder. That's what they get.

And we've listed at least half a dozen non-swarm lists that work for imperials. They have other lists, and good ones. Stop trying to make the imperials build like the rebels. Differences between factions are good. If you feel like your imperial lists are stagnating then try something new. See what a hybrid swarm with bombers and ties can do. Try out out Interceptor howlrunner swarm. But don't complain that they aren't as customizable. It's missing the whole point of the imperials.

I mean, do we really want Jendon and Kagi as crew members like we get Han or Chewie? Not really. Do we want Tarkin as a crew. Yes, but he has to come with something a little bigger than the Shuttle.

Your complaint. It's not a big deal. Cardboard is bad. Run as little as you can. Only add things that are always worth the cost.

The no unique characters is not exactly true. There are a ton of named moffs, admirals, and generals.

Go back and look at the original star wars card game there are alot of empirial characters you could add especially if you use the EU characters that may or may not exsist.

I think it's sort of telling that we got Luke Skywalker(Rebel Captive) as an Imperial only crew. The pool of possibilities is not large and needs to be streteched. And again, they haven't released a ship where imperial exclusives would be appropriate other than the Shuttle, which added 2. Neither the Firespray nor Phantom should have Imp only crew.

I forgot about the Bombers for Swarming so Empire has the advantage there still.

For crew I didn't count Epic stuff (so no Han or Leia, C3PO, or R2D2) and I didn't add in Jan and Kyle as its not out yet, but if included, that would put it to 9-2 for crew for Rebels so Rebels still ahead.

Titles, I missed the A-wing Prototype so that makes it a Tie there.

@ Obiwonka Fortressing is a tactic that works by locking ships together to hold an area of the board. Works with Falcons really well, turreted ships somewhat less than that, then the Lambda's can lock up a corner of the board.

Ion locking is stressing and ionizing a ship so it can't act (no actions) and can't get out of it (currently only an R2 or Nien can unlock this tactic)

@Rakky That's what I was looking to do, with Forum help, was look at the interaction between the faction advantages to see how they work together in lists. Some upgrades just don't work together.

I forgot about the Bombers for Swarming so Empire has the advantage there still.

For crew I didn't count Epic stuff (so no Han or Leia, C3PO, or R2D2) and I didn't add in Jan and Kyle as its not out yet, but if included, that would put it to 9-2 for crew for Rebels so Rebels still ahead.

Titles, I missed the A-wing Prototype so that makes it a Tie there.

Plus Howl which probably boosts the Empire's swarm lead even higher

I would probably give the Rebels the title advantage, Evade action on a large ship (especially Chewbacca)>adding a torpedo slot in the current meta (noone uses torps much less on a firespray), I would probably say Moldy Crow's focus banking = ST-321's TLing ability, both have Crew that make them better and have other pilots they synergize with, and I think the Protype giving an extra EPS>having an extra mod slot

For me, it's absolutely not an issue of game balance - because the game is balanced. I just really enjoy being able to customize ships and, rightly or wrongly, it simply feels like the Rebels have a lot more options in that respect.

I'm in the same boat as you, but apparently we are just "wrong," need to "switch sides," or "are complaining about imbalance."

Hoping for more options isn't "allowed" here. (because random players decided we already have enough)

Wanting more options for no reason other than to have FUN is preposterous.

Silly us.

1) For crew I didn't count Epic stuff (so no Han or Leia, C3PO, or R2D2) and I didn't add in Jan and Kyle as its not out yet, but if included, that would put it to 9-2 for crew for Rebels so Rebels still ahead.

2) @ Obiwonka Fortressing is a tactic that works by locking ships together to hold an area of the board. Works with Falcons really well, turreted ships somewhat less than that, then the Lambda's can lock up a corner of the board.

1) Han, Leia, C3PO, and R2-D2 may come with Epic ships, but they're perfectly legal for non-Epic play. (Also, I forgot they were already available, since I don't have a Tantive IV.)

2) Ah. Never played against it, but from what I've read the general consensus seems to be "annoying, but overrated". Also, I'm not sure as this rates on the scoreboard since, again, it's just "annoying but overrated".

For me, it's absolutely not an issue of game balance - because the game is balanced. I just really enjoy being able to customize ships and, rightly or wrongly, it simply feels like the Rebels have a lot more options in that respect.

I'm in the same boat as you, but apparently we are just "wrong," need to "switch sides," or "are complaining about imbalance."

Hoping for more options isn't "allowed" here. (because random players decided we already have enough)

Wanting more options for no reason other than to have FUN is preposterous.

Silly us.

Of course more options is better--but if all you want is more options, you can safely assume you'll get them regardless of what you post or how often. Someone said a while back that there are five or six SKUs between Wave 4 and Rebel Aces, and they have to be filled with something. But that doesn't explain why people (not you specifically) are describing the Empire as getting the shaft from FFG, as being less fun, as having no variation in competitive lists, etc.

And the problem is that none of things are actually true, but the chorus (again, not specifically meaning either of the people I quoted, since I haven't memorized their posting histories) isn't letting that get in the way of a good whine.

To recap:

• "I would like shiny new toys for my team" is a totally rational, reasonable, and adult thing to say.
• "The game is broken because I'm not getting shiny new toys, except for the toys I am getting, but those don't count because that other team over there is also getting new toys!" is… not those things.

That and addressing that you want more options subject in a topic with a title tat clearly says the Empire is getting the shaft makes it sound like you're arguing the Empire is getting the shaft.

The empire has less options. I still love flying imps the best. I can see Rebel ace's and the Z-95 taking what was before the imperials forte and using it. It is a little aggravating to see the rebels horning in on the imp's territory with swarm capable ships and not see the empire get turrets or more unique crew/droids which has been the rebels forte so far. The rebel as of now have much more access to a much wider array of viable builds be it tough shielded ships, swarms or large ship builds. The rebels get it all now.

It's not completely broken but what was the result from Indar alpha like low 60% of rebels winning. And you're honestly sitting here arguing that there isn't a misbalance when countless people have been complaining about it. And it's only going to get worse with rebel aces.

I enjoy that a 60/40 split means the game is imbalanced. While that's technically true, that ain't bad at all. If you're not happy until it's 50/50...well...you're not going to be happy pretty much ever. Though I do wonder, would you be championing for balance if the split is 60/40 in the imperials favor at the next round of tournaments?

Moreover, that 60/40 split means absolutely nothing until you also factor in the distribution of who's playing what faction. Imperial players could win 100% of their battles and the split could STILL be 60/40 if there are considerably more rebel players.

And considering that rebels had just gotten 4 new X-wing pilots and a handful of new upgrades, I would guess there probably were more rebels than imperials in the AoIA.

Using half the relevant information to illustrate how "imbalanced" the game is isn't really a balanced look at things is it?

Rebels having the monopoly on turrets gives them an enormous advantage. If Imps do not fly with quite a bit of precision then the reb's are going to dice them up. I find when flying the Falcon that it is easy to keep in range and out of the majority of enemy firing arcs after the alpha engagement. Flying rebels is much much easier then empire. If you have a bad crash with an imperial tie or int it's is probably dead. And now the rebels will have the A-wing as an incredibly cheap 3 evade flanker that I think is going to change the entire game for the Rebels. For 20 points you will get mini vader that has the best dial in the game.

The A-Wing can only match a Interceptor for maneuverability if it takes Expert Handling, and it still has to take a stress to use it.

Rebels also lack the Shuttle's 0-speed, the Firespray's rear arc, the Defender's K-Turn, the Phantom's cloak. They are nowhere close to the Imperials when it comes to unique movement options. The only thing that's truly unique to the Rebel's dials is a large ship with a 1-turn. Those unique options are huge in a game that revolves around movement and outmaneuvering your opponent.

A thing to consider is that a very popular ship (YT) is a hard counter to just about everything the Imps could fill their squads with. Except the swarm. Which gets a bit old for many.

No matter how well you manouver with your Interceptor (or whatnot) the turret with 360 degrees combined with a gunner crew will make life very difficult for you.

I hope the Defender and Phantom shake things up but it seems to me that the Z95 has a very nice option to deliver a missile which never misses. NEat vs swarms AND the wide variety of Biggs-builds.

That is flexibility.

disclaimer; I play both sides. I tend to play Imps a bit more but that is mainly due to rebels being more popular in my area.

(and around the world it seems?)

Minor point of fact: The Imperials are capable of Ion Locking. Two Firesprays, one with Fletchette Torpedoes and the other/both with Ion Cannon(s). Alternatively, you could run a Shuttle/Firespray with an Ion Cannon, and a Rebel Captive for a single ship version. Or a bomber squad with Flechettes and Ion Pulse missiles...

The Rebels just have a slightly easier way to do it with R3-A2 on a Ion Turret equipped Y-Wing, though one thing to note about that combo is that the target must be in the Y's front arc, so running them together isn't exactly enough; positioning matters.

You realize If your point was remotely valid about everyone wanting to play rebels then you wouldn't have seen a gradual increase of rebels winning tournaments. Initially imps had an advantage then after every major event this site has been keeping track of win loss and builds. The rebels have been winning more and more. It's not completely broken but what was the result from Indar alpha like low 60% of rebels winning. And you're honestly sitting here arguing that there isn't a misbalance when countless people have been complaining about it. And it's only going to get worse with rebel aces.

Further point of fact: MajorJuggler has done a good deal of work tallying the Regionals Results as the come in and for the moment the Imperials have a roughly 70/30 lead over the Rebels. These result,s considering they conflict with your claimed 60/40 win rate for the Rebels for the IA event, say, to me, that the game is fairly balanced at the moment. Speculating about the future will remain just that until we have tournament result data post Wave 4/Rebel Aces.

MJ's Relevant post: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/105107-2014-regionals-results/?p=1066846

Minor point of fact: The Imperials are capable of Ion Locking. Two Firesprays, one with Fletchette Torpedoes and the other/both with Ion Cannon(s). Alternatively, you could run a Shuttle/Firespray with an Ion Cannon, and a Rebel Captive for a single ship version. Or a bomber squad with Flechettes and Ion Pulse missiles...

The Rebels just have a slightly easier way to do it with R3-A2 on a Ion Turret equipped Y-Wing, though one thing to note about that combo is that the target must be in the Y's front arc, so running them together isn't exactly enough; positioning matters.

The tactic in question was not whether the Empire could Ion lock a ship, but could they unlock themselves. Only the Rebels can change the forward 1 maneuver to a green (R2 and Nien) and rid the stress to gain their actions back, Empire ships currently can't. They have no means to change their forward maneuver to a green maneuver

Minor point of fact: The Imperials are capable of Ion Locking. Two Firesprays, one with Fletchette Torpedoes and the other/both with Ion Cannon(s). Alternatively, you could run a Shuttle/Firespray with an Ion Cannon, and a Rebel Captive for a single ship version. Or a bomber squad with Flechettes and Ion Pulse missiles...

The Rebels just have a slightly easier way to do it with R3-A2 on a Ion Turret equipped Y-Wing, though one thing to note about that combo is that the target must be in the Y's front arc, so running them together isn't exactly enough; positioning matters.

The tactic in question was not whether the Empire could Ion lock a ship, but could they unlock themselves. Only the Rebels can change the forward 1 maneuver to a green (R2 and Nien) and rid the stress to gain their actions back, Empire ships currently can't. They have no means to change their forward maneuver to a green maneuver

Ah, my mistake in understanding, thanks for clearing that up.

And considering that rebels had just gotten 4 new X-wing pilots and a handful of new upgrades, I would guess there probably were more rebels than imperials in the AoIA.

At my area the first day 2/10 were imperials, myself with a PTL interceptor based squad, and a mixed Bomber/TIE Swarm

Day 2 2/8 were imperials (well 2/7, the 8th was a brand new player who originally planned on watching but we let him borrow some stuff and put together a wedge biggs luke for him to run), myself with a Krassis+Miniswarm, and the same guy from the day before he subbed in Interceptors for the Bombers in his swarm

Day 3 was 3/12 I think (maybe 4/12) My Krassis+miniswarm, a dual Firespray run by the swarm player from the last 2 and a 4 Bomber Squad

I believe a majority of rebel squads had at least one B-wing (6/8 on he first day, not sure about the stats on the second/third days) Y-wings and Falcons of course were very popular, I think only 3(I know one for sure did I am not sure on the other 2) players from the whole weekend (30 players) used the new X-wing, I think the new crew was just used by approximately the same amount of people

And considering that rebels had just gotten 4 new X-wing pilots and a handful of new upgrades, I would guess there probably were more rebels than imperials in the AoIA.

At my area the first day 2/10 were imperials, myself with a PTL interceptor based squad, and a mixed Bomber/TIE Swarm

Day 2 2/8 were imperials (well 2/7, the 8th was a brand new player who originally planned on watching but we let him borrow some stuff and put together a wedge biggs luke for him to run), myself with a Krassis+Miniswarm, and the same guy from the day before he subbed in Interceptors for the Bombers in his swarm

Day 3 was 3/12 I think (maybe 4/12) My Krassis+miniswarm, a dual Firespray run by the swarm player from the last 2 and a 4 Bomber Squad

I believe a majority of rebel squads had at least one B-wing (6/8 on he first day, not sure about the stats on the second/third days) Y-wings and Falcons of course were very popular, I think only 3(I know one for sure did I am not sure on the other 2) players from the whole weekend (30 players) used the new X-wing, I think the new crew was just used by approximately the same amount of people

We had a 4 RGP list get 4th, 3X get 3rd, My Lambda, Firespray 3 Tie List in Second, and A Chewie with 2 X's Get first.

The other players had 4X, Firespray and Squints and Ties, Dual Falcons, and Vader Fett and 2 Ties. I'm missing a player, but I have no idea what he ran, but it was Imperial while our first round drop out had a Falcon and 1 b-Wing list.

As opposed to the roughly 10-12/19 Imperial squads at my Imdaar Alpha event.

Further point of fact: MajorJuggler has done a good deal of work tallying the Regionals Results as the come in and for the moment the Imperials have a roughly 70/30 lead over the Rebels. These result,s considering they conflict with your claimed 60/40 win rate for the Rebels for the IA event, say, to me, that the game is fairly balanced at the moment. Speculating about the future will remain just that until we have tournament result data post Wave 4/Rebel Aces.

Well the issue with this is how the "Winners" of IA are defined, because if it is just who won the Top Table match I think it was a much higher than 60/40 (In my area I believe it was all 3 were rebels) if it was who was the higher seed heading into the top match I think that would be a little more of a even split (in my area 5 of the Top 6 were playing rebels to make it to the Top Table, me being the only exception on Saturday)

As a whole when smallish sample sizes are compared the Rebels will come out ahead(in my opinion/hunch) because they are less dice reliant which evens out when a larger sample size is used (IE less tragic tales of a Interceptor/Tie ace 1shotted at r3 as a percentage of the overall field)