Please. People are overstating what the Rebel Aces packs are doing. The A-wing NEEDED the change. Their primary role was to be the filler of the Rebels. Which was replaced by the Z-95. With the Chardaan Refit, the choice between a filler Z-95 and A-wing is a bit more of an actual choice. Without it, the Z-95 was your filler, leaving the A-wing in the same zone as the TIE Advanced. And the Prototype Pilot title allows you to experiment with new roles for the A-wing. I mean, I actually want to use Tycho AND Daredevil now. And the crew choice for B-wings is being a bit overstated. Most of the time, a Rebel player is going to stick to Sensors as their upgrade of choice. It does give some interesting choices for the unique B-wings, which I'm happy with, since they aren't the most popular ships to use. Jake and Farlander are both good. No one is going to deny that. But they are no where near the game altering pilots people are panicking about.

As for the actual game balance, while Rebels may have more "options", the game is still greatly balanced among the sides. Especially after Wave 4. Sure, turrets will be annoying for Phantoms. But, the turret ships will hate seeing Rexlar.

Please. People are overstating what the Rebel Aces packs are doing. The A-wing NEEDED the change.

As for the actual game balance, while Rebels may have more "options", the game is still greatly balanced among the sides. Especially after Wave 4. Sure, turrets will be annoying for Phantoms. But, the turret ships will hate seeing Rexlar.

re; need for change. According to many the Tie Advanced need more help than the A-wing. The B-wing did not need ANY help.

It was bloody strong as it was.

re; balance. I think there is fairly good balance overall. But as someone who plays both sides I would like more 'customisation' for the Imps. It certainly would not hurt to have several 'imp only' crew cards for example. As long as the cards themselves are balanced.

The rebels are doing better to deny that is blind since even this site keeps track of tournament results and have been showing a steady % increase of rebels winning tournament over imperial lists. Wave 4 at best the e wing and defender are a wash as both are underwhelming but equal ships. The phantom is likely the best ship of the 4 but the z95 will have the largest impact on list building and options. After wave 4 the rebels will be slightly better then imperials the real complaints didn't start until people saw the rebel aces pack and saw how incredible the changes were to the awing and bwing. The imperials need a major announcement and not even a huge ship will help them unless it comes with an advanced. They need an aces type pack for the advanced and another ship.

I get that Rebels are more fun to sqaud build for.

But all in all upgrade cards are something to minimize anyway. If you're putting Astromechs on all your X-Wings and filling all your crew slots you probably could have had another ship that would serve you better.

Please. People are overstating what the Rebel Aces packs are doing. The A-wing NEEDED the change. Their primary role was to be the filler of the Rebels. Which was replaced by the Z-95. With the Chardaan Refit, the choice between a filler Z-95 and A-wing is a bit more of an actual choice. Without it, the Z-95 was your filler, leaving the A-wing in the same zone as the TIE Advanced. And the Prototype Pilot title allows you to experiment with new roles for the A-wing. I mean, I actually want to use Tycho AND Daredevil now. And the crew choice for B-wings is being a bit overstated. Most of the time, a Rebel player is going to stick to Sensors as their upgrade of choice. It does give some interesting choices for the unique B-wings, which I'm happy with, since they aren't the most popular ships to use. Jake and Farlander are both good. No one is going to deny that. But they are no where near the game altering pilots people are panicking about.

As for the actual game balance, while Rebels may have more "options", the game is still greatly balanced among the sides. Especially after Wave 4. Sure, turrets will be annoying for Phantoms. But, the turret ships will hate seeing Rexlar.

It's worth noting that a Rebel player can take both the crew slot AND Advanced Sensors if the want as the crew upgrade is a Modification, and Adv. Sensors is a system.

But you are missing the issue. Cost, cost, cost. You are looking at the Sensors + B-wing/E2 + the cost of whatever crew you are taking. Are people seriously going to consider 26+ pts for a Blue Squadron pilot? Adding 2 or 3 pts to a B-wing is one thing. Once you start going 4+, the reasoning starts to get a bit shaky. If you are using an expensive Unique, it isn't as big of an issue to just add in some more. But if you are using a generic, whose whole point is to be the cheapest version in order to use more, I'm not sold on it. Yes, the crew adds choices for the B-wings. But I am not sold on most of them being good choices.

Personally, the Jan and Kyle crew are more of a HWK boost than anything. Which I love.

I'm trying not to snark in this thread but its not easy. The Empire is behind by two Epic ship releases and that means crew, weapons, teams, pilots on whatever ship is the escort. The game has been balanced, up until this point. It will balance out once the Empire Epic release hits, but that's not for another 12 months or more...

A temporary loss of parity in releases does not necessarily imply the destruction of game balance.

So one side suddenly gets more options for customization and the inference is that it is balanced?

But you are missing the issue. Cost, cost, cost. You are looking at the Sensors + B-wing/E2 + the cost of whatever crew you are taking. Are people seriously going to consider 26+ pts for a Blue Squadron pilot? Adding 2 or 3 pts to a B-wing is one thing. Once you start going 4+, the reasoning starts to get a bit shaky. If you are using an expensive Unique, it isn't as big of an issue to just add in some more. But if you are using a generic, whose whole point is to be the cheapest version in order to use more, I'm not sold on it. Yes, the crew adds choices for the B-wings. But I am not sold on most of them being good choices.

Personally, the Jan and Kyle crew are more of a HWK boost than anything. Which I love.

Upgrades are the last thing most ships need. The Falcon needs either an offensive or defensive boost. The Shuttle, Firespray, Hawks, and Y-Wings all need cardboard. But in the end, if you have more than 10 points of upgrades on a team you're losing a lot of firepower. There are a handful of Crew the B-Wing can make use of. But none of them are going to better for the b-Wing than Advanced sensors or Fire Control. And they will all cost more. The coolest thing about the B-Wing E is I can have the Ten and Nien bropiloting a ship. There aren't many good crew for the B-Wing. Especially not at +1 cost.

I'm trying not to snark in this thread but its not easy. The Empire is behind by two Epic ship releases and that means crew, weapons, teams, pilots on whatever ship is the escort. The game has been balanced, up until this point. It will balance out once the Empire Epic release hits, but that's not for another 12 months or more...

A temporary loss of parity in releases does not necessarily imply the destruction of game balance.

So one side suddenly gets more options for customization and the inference is that it is balanced?

I am tired of picking Howlrunner in pretty much every imperial list. It's just that her ability is so overwhelmingly good and there are very few other options available. For 18 points it's hard to justify not using her due to nothing else being worth it. If I go to play competetivly I will have Howl in every list since the game rewards offensive builds.

I am tired of picking Howlrunner in pretty much every imperial list. It's just that her ability is so overwhelmingly good and there are very few other options available. For 18 points it's hard to justify not using her due to nothing else being worth it. If I go to play competetivly I will have Howl in every list since the game rewards offensive builds.

I play the Empire about 80% of the time and I hardly use Howlrunner. She is good, but not a must, unless you limit yourself and only play Tie Fighter Swarms. Since I'm not a big fan of swarms, Howlrunner doesn't see a lot of table time here.

4 Royal Guard+Ptl

Shuttle, Firespray, 2 tie

5 bombers

3 amigos

There is other way to win and competitive build with the Empire than the swarm.

I am tired of picking Howlrunner in pretty much every imperial list. It's just that her ability is so overwhelmingly good and there are very few other options available. For 18 points it's hard to justify not using her due to nothing else being worth it. If I go to play competetivly I will have Howl in every list since the game rewards offensive builds.

I play the Empire about 80% of the time and I hardly use Howlrunner. She is good, but not a must, unless you limit yourself and only play Tie Fighter Swarms. Since I'm not a big fan of swarms, Howlrunner doesn't see a lot of table time here.

4 Royal Guard+Ptl

Shuttle, Firespray, 2 tie

5 bombers

3 amigos

There is other way to win and competitive build with the Empire than the swarm.

Firespray with mini swarm is one of the strongest current imp lists. It runs much better with Howl. Tie swarms, bomber swarms and interceptor swarms all work much better with Howl. You can run without howl but it I am going for the best chance to win then there are really no options that even come close to howl. The rebels have quite a few viable options and more on the horizon. I wish they would do the same for imps but every wave comes and goes without any challenger to howl.

I am tired of picking Howlrunner in pretty much every imperial list. It's just that her ability is so overwhelmingly good and there are very few other options available. For 18 points it's hard to justify not using her due to nothing else being worth it. If I go to play competetivly I will have Howl in every list since the game rewards offensive builds.

I play the Empire about 80% of the time and I hardly use Howlrunner. She is good, but not a must, unless you limit yourself and only play Tie Fighter Swarms. Since I'm not a big fan of swarms, Howlrunner doesn't see a lot of table time here.

4 Royal Guard+Ptl

Shuttle, Firespray, 2 tie

5 bombers

3 amigos

There is other way to win and competitive build with the Empire than the swarm.

You forgot Firespray, Shuttle, 3 Tie.

Yup, or 2-3 Firespray, or Firespray and Interceptors....

Really, if Howlrunner is the only way for you to be competitive, maybe you didn't pick the right faction for you.

I'm trying not to snark in this thread but its not easy. The Empire is behind by two Epic ship releases and that means crew, weapons, teams, pilots on whatever ship is the escort. The game has been balanced, up until this point. It will balance out once the Empire Epic release hits, but that's not for another 12 months or more...

A temporary loss of parity in releases does not necessarily imply the destruction of game balance.

Just a temporary destruction of game balance... the length of, which based on previous release schedules, could be up to a year or more (Gencon announcement, announcement comes ~6 months before release, holiday development/distribution issues adds 2 months, design team change could add more, distribution often 2 months behind, product line getting bigger = longer time between releases when reprints start to pile up).

Firespray with mini swarm is one of the strongest current imp lists. It runs much better with Howl. Tie swarms, bomber swarms and interceptor swarms all work much better with Howl. You can run without howl but it I am going for the best chance to win then there are really no options that even come close to howl. The rebels have quite a few viable options and more on the horizon. I wish they would do the same for imps but every wave comes and goes without any challenger to howl.

That said, Howlrunner, while good, is one very fragile ship. She's not the be all and end all of Imperial ships by any means. A good deal at 18 points, but I haven't run her in months, and have been doing the absolute best in tournaments I've ever done. There's a reason for that. Howlrunner cuts down on your squads adaptability. She forces you t cram your fleet into an itty bitty box to give benefit, and people have learned to deal with said Itty Bitty Box.

I'm trying not to snark in this thread but its not easy. The Empire is behind by two Epic ship releases and that means crew, weapons, teams, pilots on whatever ship is the escort. The game has been balanced, up until this point. It will balance out once the Empire Epic release hits, but that's not for another 12 months or more...

A temporary loss of parity in releases does not necessarily imply the destruction of game balance.

Just a temporary destruction of game balance... the length of, which based on previous release schedules, could be up to a year or more (Gencon announcement, announcement comes ~6 months before release, holiday development/distribution issues adds 2 months, design team change could add more, distribution often 2 months behind, product line getting bigger = longer time between releases when reprints start to pile up).

Just because one side has more "options", as it were, does not mean that there is no balance. The game is fine. A far, far healthier place than what it was post Wave 2.

By the way, Z95s aren't that good. Once you get past the alpha strike, they have no teeth.

On the contrary, on a per-cost basis, they are the most efficient jousting ship in the entire game, excluding the Lambda Shuttle. They are better than naked TIE Fighters, primarily because the "free" +1 PS boost lets them shoot first at the same cost. The best use of Z-95s will not be for carrying missiles, but for rebel swarms.

The jousting numbers are summarized here: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/page-5#entry1111620

15 point Refit A-wings will have about the same jousting cost effectiveness as B-wings.

For the first time, Rebels will have competitive list filler options at below 20 points. So, Z-95s will be a big deal to the Rebel meta, and Rebels will have an amazing selection of viable list building options.

Re: OP

Does that mean Imperials are in trouble? Hardly. Until we see otherwise in Regionals / Nationals / Worlds / etc results, TIE Swarms have been and will continue to be either very heavily present, or are outright dominant. In the end the game is about putting more dice on your enemy and being able to take more hits in return, and nothing does that better than a TIE Swarm. Lately we have seen some intelligent mixing of Interceptors in swarms as well.

So do Imperials have a lack of competitive options relative to Rebels? Right now, yes - to an extent. But the TIE Phantom and TIE Defender both look like they will help pull the Imperial meta away from Howlrunner a little.

The rebels are doing better to deny that is blind since even this site keeps track of tournament results and have been showing a steady % increase of rebels winning tournament over imperial lists…

The tournament scene was lopsidedly in favor of the Empire for months--really until Wave 3 started to diffuse into the metagame, except for a brief interval after the Wave 2 release while people struggled to figure out how to fight double Falcons.

After wave 4 the rebels will be slightly better then imperials the real complaints didn't start until people saw the rebel aces pack and saw how incredible the changes were to the awing and being.

That's not even a little bit true.

The imperials need a major announcement and not even a huge ship will help them unless it comes with an advanced. They need an aces type pack for the advanced and another ship.

So you won't be satisfied until the Empire gets both Epic releases and a second Aces release?

I'm trying not to snark in this thread but its not easy. The Empire is behind by two Epic ship releases and that means crew, weapons, teams, pilots on whatever ship is the escort. The game has been balanced, up until this point. It will balance out once the Empire Epic release hits, but that's not for another 12 months or more...

A temporary loss of parity in releases does not necessarily imply the destruction of game balance.

So one side suddenly gets more options for customization and the inference is that it is balanced?

As other people have pointed out, if the new options are costed correctly then they have no impact on game balance. Even if FFG stopped printing Imperial content entirely--which they won't, of course--the faction would get a bit stale, but it wouldn't get worse with respect to the Rebels unless the Rebel releases were themselves out of balance with previous releases.

That means rebels have a bunch of nifty crew options that go on 2 ships

Okay... So Rebels have lots of Rebel-only crew options for only two ships. So this lessens the customization using crewmen.I don't really feel like doing the math, but I am curious how many options for crewmen those two Rebel ships have, compared to how many crew options the Imperials have for their three. And we're talking about options, not necessarily competitive options, (if we are including the plethora of terrible Imperial/Rebel pilots as "options").Then, factor in droids. Rebels may only have two ships that can take crew, but how many can take droids?

And? Droids somehow make the rebels inherently better?Neither synergistic abilities nor more upgrade options make the Empire worse than the rebels. The Imperials have more pilots under 20 points than the rebels by a mile. And even more generic pilots. That gives them more customization by far. Name a rebel squad that can fit 6 named pilots on a team? It doesn't exist. They can barely fit 4, even with Z-95s. They have more 5 ship squad builds than the rebels by far. They have more agile ships than the rebels. Nearly every ship they have has better action options.(How many rebel ships have the largely redundant Focus and Target Lock as their only options.) I play Imperial. They're not crippled. They're not stagnant. If they had the support and upgrade options the rebels do they'd be broken. How hard is it to take down a Recon specialist Firespray? Now imagine what it would look like with Interceptors that can hold more focus tokens than Soontir Fel? Action passing to ships with actual options like focus evade and barrel roll is dangerous. An that's on the cheapest ship the empire has. Not the e-wing or b-wing where the cost is prohibitively high.

Wow.

Did I say that droids made Rebels better? Did I say anywhere anything about the Rebels ______ making their faction better than Imperials? I feel like you glanced at two words from my post and decided to fill in what you assumed I had said.

I was referring to O P T I O N S.

Not _______ Rebel upgrades make them superior.

Not _______ Rebel crewmen make them superior.

Not that Imperials are stagnant.

Not that Imperials are broken.

I was and am referring to options, (in the form of crewmen, upgrades, or whatever) that are restricted to Imperials that are not Swarm. Saying that an Imperial player can have "This( swarm) list!" or "This (swarm) list!" or "This (swarm) list!" doesn't really satiate the desire for more variety in a NON-swarm list.

I have flown swarms.

In my Imdaar assault event, I placed second with a swarm. (Ironically, it was a list I had never flown before)

My issue is that I don't want my only competitive option to be a swarm.

I played a game with a guy about a week before Imdaar. (Very one-sided game, he destroyed me. Thanks, Gullwind!) and in it, he was trying out a bunch of new stuff within the his list of ships. This was a very strange concept to me, as he had his 3 ships, but kept mentioning how "_____ upgrade is different" or "I decided to use _____ instead of _____." For me, most "variety" comes in the form of "to add or not to add an Academy pilot."

I want Imperial only upgrades (crew members, ept's, Imperial "droids"?) that I can put on a non-swarm ship list that isn't extremely high risk. I'm NOT requesting a "god-mode ship list with OP'd upgrades that breaks the game."

Just a few options that (1) make playing Imperial without a swarm viable, (2) make 3-4 Imperial ship lists neither suicidal or high risk, and (3) make playing as a member of the Imperial Navy fun - without a swarm.

I mean, c'mon. They WERE technology. They WERE order. They WERE the Empire. Surely they have something other than ships that the Rebels don't have...

And before someone says, "Herp derp. Phantom/Defender is your answer to non-swarm Imperial List," I want to emphasize the point that I am trying to make of options NOT in the form of more/different ships. Rebels get new droids all the time. Someone can go buy an E-wing (when it is released) and stick a droid from that expansion directly onto a ship from the core set.

I would like something similar - something new to stick on my old ship to make it shiny again!

That means rebels have a bunch of nifty crew options that go on 2 ships

Okay... So Rebels have lots of Rebel-only crew options for only two ships. So this lessens the customization using crewmen.I don't really feel like doing the math, but I am curious how many options for crewmen those two Rebel ships have, compared to how many crew options the Imperials have for their three. And we're talking about options, not necessarily competitive options, (if we are including the plethora of terrible Imperial/Rebel pilots as "options").Then, factor in droids. Rebels may only have two ships that can take crew, but how many can take droids?

And? Droids somehow make the rebels inherently better?Neither synergistic abilities nor more upgrade options make the Empire worse than the rebels. The Imperials have more pilots under 20 points than the rebels by a mile. And even more generic pilots. That gives them more customization by far. Name a rebel squad that can fit 6 named pilots on a team? It doesn't exist. They can barely fit 4, even with Z-95s. They have more 5 ship squad builds than the rebels by far. They have more agile ships than the rebels. Nearly every ship they have has better action options.(How many rebel ships have the largely redundant Focus and Target Lock as their only options.) I play Imperial. They're not crippled. They're not stagnant. If they had the support and upgrade options the rebels do they'd be broken. How hard is it to take down a Recon specialist Firespray? Now imagine what it would look like with Interceptors that can hold more focus tokens than Soontir Fel? Action passing to ships with actual options like focus evade and barrel roll is dangerous. An that's on the cheapest ship the empire has. Not the e-wing or b-wing where the cost is prohibitively high.

Wow.

Did I say that droids made Rebels better? Did I say anywhere anything about the Rebels ______ making their faction better than Imperials? I feel like you glanced at two words from my post and decided to fill in what you assumed I had said.

I was referring to O P T I O N S.

Not _______ Rebel upgrades make them superior.

Not _______ Rebel crewmen make them superior.

Not that Imperials are stagnant.

Not that Imperials are broken.

I was and am referring to options, (in the form of crewmen, upgrades, or whatever) that are restricted to Imperials that are not Swarm. Saying that an Imperial player can have "This( swarm) list!" or "This (swarm) list!" or "This (swarm) list!" doesn't really satiate the desire for more variety in a NON-swarm list.

I have flown swarms.

In my Imdaar assault event, I placed second with a swarm. (Ironically, it was a list I had never flown before)

My issue is that I don't want my only competitive option to be a swarm.

I played a game with a guy about a week before Imdaar. (Very one-sided game, he destroyed me. Thanks, Gullwind!) and in it, he was trying out a bunch of new stuff within the his list of ships. This was a very strange concept to me, as he had his 3 ships, but kept mentioning how "_____ upgrade is different" or "I decided to use _____ instead of _____." For me, most "variety" comes in the form of "to add or not to add an Academy pilot."

I want Imperial only upgrades (crew members, ept's, Imperial "droids"?) that I can put on a non-swarm ship list that isn't extremely high risk. I'm NOT requesting a "god-mode ship list with OP'd upgrades that breaks the game."

Just a few options that (1) make playing Imperial without a swarm viable, (2) make 3-4 Imperial ship lists neither suicidal or high risk, and (3) make playing as a member of the Imperial Navy fun - without a swarm.

I mean, c'mon. They WERE technology. They WERE order. They WERE the Empire. Surely they have something other than ships that the Rebels don't have...

And before someone says, "Herp derp. Phantom/Defender is your answer to non-swarm Imperial List," I want to emphasize the point that I am trying to make of options NOT in the form of more/different ships. Rebels get new droids all the time. Someone can go buy an E-wing (when it is released) and stick a droid from that expansion directly onto a ship from the core set.

I would like something similar - something new to stick on my old ship to make it shiny again!

What you're asking isn't reasonable. We don't need more Imperial Specific crew members. They don't have the characters to back it up unless you want Bossk suddenly helping fly a shuttle, or IG-88 Copiloting the Slave I. They are the faceless horder. That's what they get.

And we've listed at least half a dozen non-swarm lists that work for imperials. They have other lists, and good ones. Stop trying to make the imperials build like the rebels. Differences between factions are good. If you feel like your imperial lists are stagnating then try something new. See what a hybrid swarm with bombers and ties can do. Try out out Interceptor howlrunner swarm. But don't complain that they aren't as customizable. It's missing the whole point of the imperials.

I mean, do we really want Jendon and Kagi as crew members like we get Han or Chewie? Not really. Do we want Tarkin as a crew. Yes, but he has to come with something a little bigger than the Shuttle.

Your complaint. It's not a big deal. Cardboard is bad. Run as little as you can. Only add things that are always worth the cost.

The Swarm isn't your only option. And really, there can be variety in swarms. But, most people seem to dismiss that different pilots can mean a different type of squad. Are TIEs super customizable, nope. And they never will be. But, many seem to dismiss the some of the utility provided by Elite Talents, because of the new shiny that is "exclusive".

Take the humble Black Squadron TIE. It is by far the best option for support Elite Talents. The Black Squadron TIE is the best choice for Wingman. Outmaneuver is something Imperials have been wanting since Wave 2, a turret counter. Predator is going to be nasty for Imperials, since they have the most options for Elite Talents. Heck, Flechettes and Ion Pulse can turn your standard Bomber into a nasty control piece for only 10 pts.

And really, if all you feel you can bring is Swarms, then either other squads don't fit your playstyle, or you are not creative enough. I have never played the Swarm. Yet, I have never felt hampered by playing Imperials. The choice among ships is choice enough.

The imperials need a major announcement and not even a huge ship will help them unless it comes with an advanced. They need an aces type pack for the advanced and another ship.

So you won't be satisfied until the Empire gets both Epic releases and a second Aces release?

A more accurate assessment would be he won't be satisfied until the Advanced gets "fixed"

The rebels are doing better to deny that is blind since even this site keeps track of tournament results and have been showing a steady % increase of rebels winning tournament over imperial lists. Wave 4 at best the e wing and defender are a wash as both are underwhelming but equal ships. The phantom is likely the best ship of the 4 but the z95 will have the largest impact on list building and options. After wave 4 the rebels will be slightly better then imperials the real complaints didn't start until people saw the rebel aces pack and saw how incredible the changes were to the awing and bwing. The imperials need a major announcement and not even a huge ship will help them unless it comes with an advanced. They need an aces type pack for the advanced and another ship.

And how much of that is that the Rebels are the good guys. That people would rather fly an X-Wing than a Tie? The player split isn't 50/50 and never has been. That doesn't mean the sides or imbalanced or that the Rebel players are better or anything like that. It means people like the rebels better. If the Imperials were at a disadvantage the results would look very very different.

I get that Rebels are more fun to sqaud build for.

But all in all upgrade cards are something to minimize anyway. If you're putting Astromechs on all your X-Wings and filling all your crew slots you probably could have had another ship that would serve you better.

The imperials need a major announcement and not even a huge ship will help them unless it comes with an advanced. They need an aces type pack for the advanced and another ship.

So you won't be satisfied until the Empire gets both Epic releases and a second Aces release?

A more accurate assessment would be he won't be satisfied until the Advanced gets "fixed"