An obvious corner case which didn't even bear mentioning except to prove a purely technical point. Thank you for the exercise in pedantry.

You brought it up, the burden of relevance is on you.

I have another question for everyone. Since a ship can clearly be at range 1 of itself, does that mean that when it moves it's also overlapping itself? I feel like you shouldn't be able to take actions if you move, because you're always going to overlap.

Doesn't the rule for that specifiy another?

One thing worth remembering is that lots of people work on this game. It's like the Immediately After and After thing, someone else probably wrote the card.

As for if Jan can affect her own ship, my gut says no, I think they'd have phrased it differently. That being said, it doesn't without a doubt specify another, so we'll only be certain when FFG FAQs it.

How is that not what I've been saying?

I mean really? It's the argument I've been making, while quoting card text to cite my points.

Uh, what? Not even remotely.

No. It's exactly what I've been saying. That ships are friendly to themselves, because otherwise they never would have used the word another to modify friendly, and that ships are within range 1 of themselves because the wording on assault missiles modifies itself in such a way that implies they are, in addition to the whole closest point thing.

No, it really, really isn't anything close to your specious blathering. He quoted legitimate rules text with concrete definitions, you posted a handful of garbage about Assault Missiles that is still wrong.

I have another question for everyone. Since a ship can clearly be at range 1 of itself, does that mean that when it moves it's also overlapping itself? I feel like you shouldn't be able to take actions if you move, because you're always going to overlap.

Core Rulebook, p17 (emphasis mine):

If a ship executes a maneuver that would cause the final position of its base to physically overlap another ship’s base (even partially), follow these steps…

So whether or not you're overlapping yourself is moot, because the game only cares when you overlap another ship.

An obvious corner case which didn't even bear mentioning except to prove a purely technical point. Thank you for the exercise in pedantry.

You brought it up, the burden of relevance is on you.

I have another question for everyone. Since a ship can clearly be at range 1 of itself, does that mean that when it moves it's also overlapping itself? I feel like you shouldn't be able to take actions if you move, because you're always going to overlap.

Doesn't the rule for that specifiy another?

One thing worth remembering is that lots of people work on this game. It's like the Immediately After and After thing, someone else probably wrote the card.

As for if Jan can affect her own ship, my gut says no, I think they'd have phrased it differently. That being said, it doesn't without a doubt specify another, so we'll only be certain when FFG FAQs it.

If a ship can be at range 1 of itself, and be friendly with itself, why can't it also be another ship? The rules actually define friendly, they don't say anything about "another."

Another question: a ship that would overlap another ship, friendly or otherwise, has to move backward along the template until it would not longer be overlapping. Since a ship is clearly friendly to itself (and all friendly ships are also "other" ships), and thus cannot overlap itself, does that it mean would have to remain in it's original position, or just a base length away from where it would be if it completed the maneuver?

If a ship can be at range 1 of itself, and be friendly with itself, why can't it also be another ship?

They don't define "Another" the same way they don't define "And". It's a word with no special contextual meaning, it means what the dictionary says it means, a further object which isn't the subject.

Friendly means on the same team. Whether a ship is at Range 1 of itself has never come up because any time it could FFG has always specified "Another" in such a situation. Jan's phrasing is unprecedented. Unless your rulebook definition (which I couldn't find) specifies a friendly ship as a different ship to the subject, friendly does not mean another.

You're getting very aggressive with Aminar for him having a tenous argument (absence of Another presents possibility that ship could target itself), when your own argument of "no space on card" is also pretty tenous.

If a ship can be at range 1 of itself, and be friendly with itself, why can't it also be another ship?

They don't define "Another" the same way they don't define "And". It's a word with no special contextual meaning, it means what the dictionary says it means, a further object which isn't the subject.

Friendly means on the same team. Whether a ship is at Range 1 of itself has never come up because any time it could FFG has always specified "Another" in such a situation. Jan's phrasing is unprecedented. Unless your rulebook definition (which I couldn't find) specifies a friendly ship as a different ship to the subject, friendly does not mean another.

You're getting very aggressive with Aminar for him having a tenous argument (absence of Another presents possibility that ship could target itself), when your own argument of "no space on card" is also pretty tenous.

A) You're forgetting Colonel Jendon, a very obvious case of redundancy. There has been no, no other situation where the word "friendly" was used and did not automatically exclude itself. Do we assume that a card, which could easily have been worded less ambiguously, just suddenly breaks precedence because it lacks "another," or do we apply the more obvious scenario that there simply wasn't any more room on an already cramped card? I don't find the latter to be the slightest bit tenuous.

B) You must have missed the part where he declared that he can be friends with himself.

If it seems like I'm being ridiculous, it's to serve a point. This question really shouldn't have gone more than two posts before we all went "oh yeah, that makes sense." Instead a few people collectively derped, and instead of citing the definitions actually provided in the rules, like Vorpal did, they just made up some bologna excuses that have very little bearing on the conversation at hand. Honestly, I'm not being any more aggressive with Aminar than I would be anyone else who is obviously arguing for the sake of argument.

Where's the redundance on Jendon?

B) You must have missed the part where he declared that he can be friends with himself.

Or rather, that a ship is friendly to itself. The definition of that varies from game to game, and I haven't seen an FFG definition for X-wing defining friendly ships as either ships on your side (and a ship is in its own side) or other ships on your side. This entire discussion hinges on that definition, and as far as I know that definition doesn't exist yet. Thus, this whole argument is one of probabilities and loosely connected precedents. What's also being forgotten is that FFG has multiple designers at work who may phrase things differently and quality control isn't perfect (see Leia Organa crew card's double manuever). The assumption that the other person is an idiot or troll because they're ignoring the evidence in order to keep arguing is flawed because there isn't actually any evidence.

Unless of course, FFG's officially defined friendly and I managed to read through the whole rulebook looking for it and missed it. Then the idiot here is me.

EDIT: The idiot is indeed me, Page 4, all components belonging to a player's own faction are considered Friendly. This means, based on that, Aminar's interpretation is probably right: the ship Jan is on is a friendly ship. Friendly is defined as friendly to the player.

That only leaves one thing left. "At Range 1." Not "Within Range 1". Does the Range 1 band include the ship itself?

Where's the redundance on Jendon?

B) You must have missed the part where he declared that he can be friends with himself.

Or rather, that a ship is friendly to itself. The definition of that varies from game to game, and I haven't seen an FFG definition for X-wing defining friendly ships as either ships on your side (and a ship is in its own side) or other ships on your side. This entire discussion hinges on that definition, and as far as I know that definition doesn't exist yet. Thus, this whole argument is one of probabilities and loosely connected precedents. What's also being forgotten is that FFG has multiple designers at work who may phrase things differently and quality control isn't perfect (see Leia Organa crew card's double manuever). The assumption that the other person is an idiot or troll because they're ignoring the evidence in order to keep arguing is flawed because there isn't actually any evidence.

Unless of course, FFG's officially defined friendly and I managed to read through the whole rulebook looking for it and missed it. Then the idiot here is me.

No, this is what he said:

Is she suddenly not on her own team.

Again, that's not the wording of the card. Can you be friends with yourself?

Ambiguity is slowly being addressed by FFG, but if they've made one thing clear in the most recent FAQ, it's that specific wording matters.

Why yes, yes I can be friends with myself.

They could have easily shrunk the font to fit the word "Another" on the card.

As for defining friendly, see Vorpal's post on the previous page. The rule seems, to me, to be unintentionally abstract with regard to actually applying the term outside of "that's yours, this is mine" situations with your opponent. Still, I can't argue around the fact that it's in the rules, even though it couldn't possibly have taken this into account when it was written.

Once again, subjective. (Also somewhat irrelevant now we've determined Friendly and Enemy are defined relative to the player)

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=can+you+be+friends+with+yourself

Forumers be warned, clicking that link will expose you to lethal doses of self-help pages.

That only leaves one thing left. "At Range 1." Not "Within Range 1". Does the Range 1 band include the ship itself?

Supposedly, since the base is touching range 1. The whole "touching" thing still seems rather nebulous to me.

To go back to Jendon, he obviously doesn't need the word "another," since he can't both have and not have a TL at the same time. It's the only other situation where "another" and "friendly" are not used together, and ample proof that the former word is considered redundant with respect to the latter, because the rest of the text obviates any unforeseen ambiguity.

I don't see "another friendly ship". Am I misreading your post?

It's the only other situation where "another" and "friendly," are not used together, and ample proof that the former word is considered redundant with respect to the latter, because the rest of the text obviates any unforeseen ambiguity.

"All components belonging to a player's own faction are considered FRIENDLY, and all components belonging to his opponent's faction are considered ENEMY." - Core Rulebook Page 4. I'm really not sure "another" is implicit in "friendly" in an X-wing context.

Apparently you are misreading it. My point was that "another" doesn't appear on the card. Jan isn't the first.

So back on subject(ish)

Crewbacca

I like this. Every time I use Chewy crew I shall call him Crewbacca!

So back on subject(ish)

Crewbacca

I like this. Every time I use Chewy crew I shall call him Crewbacca!

And every time I use the Han crew card I'll call it a Han Job.

So, anyway, going back to the ships, I'm looking at using this HWK:

Jan Ors 25

Kyle Katarn 3

Blaster Turret 4

And either Decoy or Swarm Tactics for 2.

For 34 pts. Kyle allows you to power up the Blaster Turret, making Jan a bit more offensive than she has been in the past. So, maybe 3 Blues. Or have her boost some Z-95 missiles. Could be fun.

Apparently you are misreading it. My point was that "another" doesn't appear on the card. Jan isn't the first.

That doesn't prove Friendly Ship means Different Friendly Ship though. If Jendon targets himself, he gives himself one of his own TLs, it's equivalent to skipping his action. Neither interpretation changes what Jendon does, impeding his utility and an example.

Jendon can't target himself, though. He has to give the target lock to a ship without a target lock, and if he has a target lock, he doesn't not have a target lock.

Just so we don't go in circles here, could you reiterate what the example of Jendon is meant to prove relative of Crewjan and the X-wing definition of Friendly?

Whoa... Anger is the path to the dark side folks. Don't join the terrorists!

I'm mad for a different reason: YT's and Bwings didn't need any help! And, we've discussed this before, sooooo much better than anything the imperials have received at this point.

-all the awing awesomeness (needed. Way better treatment than Imperial. We better get advanced reboot soon)

-Mwoar rebel only crew

---a rebel crew that converts evades. Imperials have been begging for that

---a rebel crew that makes stress a bonus.

-YT's that take 4 damage to even scratch the paint?!

---a YT with that set up can pretty much win any endgame scenario with less than 3 opposing ships. Going to be a lot of "good games". Very early in the match.

-ignores the ywing.

-Bwings get a mod for the mod slot that makes them even more powerful. 1pt to convert an unused slot into something very powerful isn't something most Bwings needed.

-all so much better than anything the empire has received since what... Ever?

I'm hoping there is another aces pack on the imperial side hidden in the distribution chain... This + transport+ Tantive is really feeling lopsided. I know imperials are dominating at regionals, after getting beaten by the scum at store championships, but this just feels icky as an imperial player. Phantoms and defenders only go so far...

And if you aren't seeing the variety, than you are looking at it wrong, imo. Just because the Imperials lack upgrade options, doesn't mean that they lack variety of choice.

I would say that the Imperial Huge ship will certainly get the Emperor as a crew card to balance out the Rebels. He should be able to nullify enemy ships actions up to range 2 or something equally nasty.

And if you aren't seeing the variety, than you are looking at it wrong, imo. Just because the Imperials lack upgrade options, doesn't mean that they lack variety of choice.

Having options and variety isn't the same thing as having an equal number, or even anything close to equal. I play imperials and enjoy them but it's very hard to dispute that they aren't behind, and that comes mainly from two sources: crew and droids.

The imperials don't have anything like droids (or a similar flexible card) that is essentially a free upgrade slot on a handful of ships with a wide variety of options. They also have a lot fewer crew options and will be even further behind once rebel aces is released. Also, of the two weapon options that are exclusive to each side, do we really need to debate which is the better. Then, imperials also have the only ship in the game that hasn't appeared on the top tables at regional tournaments.

I'm not saying that imperials don't have options or good variety, but I find any argument that there is as much variety on both sides very difficult to support.

I'm really getting tired of the non-variety of Imperial builds too. Yes you can do Shuttles, Firesprays without mini swarms.

But honestly, the most consistent lists seem to be: Swarm. Something + mini swarm. Maybe interceptors. That's it.

The reason is that the Academy TIE is the best bargain in the game. The problem isn't with the rest of the options; the problem is that Academy Pilots give you the best value for your points.I am not the first to day this, but Wave 4 does far more for Imperial variety than for Rebel.

I think the main problem with Imperials and why they don't get more "stuff", is that Howlrunner exists and Academy TIEs exist. The synergy there is so strong and so cheap that it's perilous to include more synergy abilities for imperials.

I have to agree, Howlrunner+swarm is such an easy and powerful baseline in terms of measuring game mechanics - with few conditionals and high numbers of dice and hulls against which many new alternatives fall short, mostly because the increased priced per ship and added situational requirements.

While many crave new list variants, many also seem to return to swarmy stuff when statistical reliability for multiple games against unknown lists is required.