Oh, and for future reference, here's a scan of the card. Please refer to the actual card as shown here when discussing the rules, not your own personal version of the card or a rough summary that a friend of a friend told you about.

Assuming you're right, and you can actually replace Jake's focus action, then any player could still simply use the other trigger ("or would be assigned a focus token"). Both are acceptable triggers provided on the card. Jake can still focus action, be assigned a focus token, be assigned an evade token instead, and boost.

Which makes the whole "doing an evade token" argument completely moot.

Sigh. I'm done with this. This is just the cluster missiles issue all over again. People who know how to read recognized that it was two separate attacks, people who don't know how to read stubbornly insisted that it was one attack (complete with rants about how it breaks the game if it's allowed to be two separate attacks) until FFG put out an FAQ saying "yes, you idiots, it's two attacks". And I can see that Jan is going to be the same thing, people who don't know how to read will get it wrong until FFG explicitly says "it replaces the action" and confirms what everyone else already knew. And they'll continue to appeal to the "intent" of the card, or ridiculous arguments about "paradoxes" as they flail desperately for any kind of support for their personal version of the card.

And since WonderWAAAGH seems to be incapable of posting without trolling I don't really see any point to this thread.

Did I just win the internet twice?!? ****, I am having one hell of a year!

Oh, and for future reference, here's a scan of the card. Please refer to the actual card as shown here when discussing the rules, not your own personal version of the card or a rough summary that a friend of a friend told you about.

Yep. Still concluded the Focus Token is replaced by an Evade Token "Instead".

I really do not want to address this directly but here goes...

Unfortunatly iPeregrine, it seems that you are the only one who reads it as the Focus Action is never taken.

Can you guys take rules discussions to the appropriate subforum? We have so very few, and until we start using them appropriately we're unlikely to get more.

And let's keep it civil. Use the report button. Don't feed the hate...

Neither has the focus action. Note the difference between "when you do X" (Jan's ability) and "after you do X" (Jake's ability, PTL, etc). The former triggers as soon as you attempt to do X and can potentially replace/modify X, the latter triggers after X is entirely finished and can't go back and change what happened.

Just to be clear: you're saying that by activating Jan's ability, you can undo a focus action.This implies that, according to the Once Per Opportunity clause in the FAQ, you can do the following:1. Rookie Pilot performs a focus action.2. The opportunity to use Jan's ability triggers; receive evade token, undo focus action.3. Rookie Pilot has not yet performed an action (since it was undone in step 2).4. Go to step 1.Hooray! Infinite evade tokens. Also, the game never ends (well, it would run to time).

Actually, there's an even worse way to look at the idea that Jan crew actually undoes its own trigger:1. Ship A performs a focus action.2. Jan is triggered ("…when a friendly ship at Range 1-3 performs a focus action") and resolves, replacing the focus action with token assignment.3. Jan's effect, having traveled back in time and overwritten the focus action, actually wasn't triggered.4. Jan's effect was never triggered, and therefore never occurred. Ship A is now trying to perform a focus action again, so we go back to Step 2.When multiple interpretations of a game element conflict with one another, I prefer to go with the version that doesn't require the intervention of Doctor Who in order to prevent the universe from being sucked up into a singularity.

It's not that Howlrunner means imperials shouldn't have variety, it's that Howlrunner makes it very difficult to add variety without breaking the game. FFG can't make new cards that equal Howlrunner's power level (since she's blatantly overpowered), so it's very easy for a new imperial release to end up collecting dust while competitive players keep using their Howlrunner swarms. And FFG have to be very careful about their choice of new cards to ensure that they don't give Holwrunner swarms any additional power. Those are two major design constraints to deal with, and there's no easy solution.Rebels, on the other hand, don't have a Howlrunner equivalent to deal with. So it's safer for FFG to be ambitious in designing new rebel cards, and it's a lot more likely that new rebel releases get a lot of interest instead of "nah, cool card but I'll keep using my current list".

If that is true, and Howlrunner is having that big of an impact on game design, then she should face an errata, reprint, etc...

It seems more likely that the Empire was never intended to include a lot of mutual support. Even if you look just at Wave 1--where the design team was probably looking at Howlrunner as a balanced release--the Rebels have Biggs, Garven, and Dutch.That looks to me like deliberate faction identity. That is, the Empire's ships are supposed to work for the most part like a set of interchangeable, seamlessly machined components... like clones, if you want to go there. The Rebels, by contrast, work like puzzle pieces: each pilot has a lot of individual personality and a lot to offer, and you have to match them together carefully to get a set that meshes.(And the idea that there's nothing good out there for the Empire that isn't a swarm is simply not true. I've done just fine with Imperial lists for literally years now without ever running a TIE swarm competitively.)

words

The inclusion of a crew slot on the Phantom doesn't strike me as being particularly coincidental. Whatever else FFG may already have planned for future releases, I wouldn't be the least surprised if they've also committed themselves to more crew options for the Empire.

I play Rebels and Empire so as much as I love all the new Rebel only crew cards, I would really love some Empire only cards. Hopefully we will get a barraks full worth of villanous Empire cannon fodder crew cards when we get an Imperial Huge ship.

Sorry iPeregrine.... but I can't really see any reasonable way Jan's crew card can be read in any other fashion then receiving an evade token instead of a focus token.

Occam's razor tells us when in question use the simplest and least assumptions in a situations like this.

What is the simplest explanation of this card?

1. That once per turn when a ship withing 1-3 range of Jan, can choose to take an evade token instead of an focus token (when assigned).

OR

2. FFG created an ability which completely wipes an action that has been performed, then assigns a token?

FFG has never negated a whole action in the way you describe. They convert tokens or switch actions but never negate. They have been very clear that actions and tokens are separate ideas. They have FAQed this, and imo it is pretty clear they worded both Jan's and Jake's cards to include BOTH of these separate ideas as the trigger.

Jan's Card

Once per round, when a friendly ship at Range 1-3 performs a focus action or would be assigned a focus token, you may assign that ship an evade instead.

At first I thought it was weird they worded both these cards this way, when they could have just removed the whole action part of the card for the same effect. I mean a focus action assigns a focus token... so why is there a need for mentioning the focus action also?

I believe it is because of Jake and Jan together.

Lets just assume option 1 is the interpretation, get a evade token instead of focus token.

If Jake were to perform a Focus Action and Jan choose to use her ability to replace the focus token with an evade then Jake couldn't use his ability unless they added the "perform focus action or would be assigned a focus token" because even though he used his focus action he wasn't assigned a focus token... Thus why they had to add both. They worded both cards consistently because the trigger is intended to be the same.

Also note they also distinguish the ship doesn't even have to be assigned a focus token, only "...or would be assigned a focus token". This tells me the intent is if there is an ability to disallow assigning focus tokens, Jan's ability could still take effect.

The card is full of text, assuming evade means "evade token" isn't that much of a stretch. As a matter for fact I think it is safe to assume evade=evade token because they use the word "assign" when refering

I play Rebels and Empire so as much as I love all the new Rebel only crew cards, I would really love some Empire only cards. Hopefully we will get a barraks full worth of villanous Empire cannon fodder crew cards when we get an Imperial Huge ship.

To be fair, FFG has done a wonderful job of capturing the iconic feels of both forces. The Rebels are more personally relatable, and each so unique that their loss is keenly felt. The Empire, by contrast, is austere and uncompromising, their pilots generally representing little more than numbers in the eyes of their leadership. The question we have to ask ourselves is, do we really want to disrupt the balance that makes both sides feel so different from each other?

I play Rebels and Empire so as much as I love all the new Rebel only crew cards, I would really love some Empire only cards. Hopefully we will get a barraks full worth of villanous Empire cannon fodder crew cards when we get an Imperial Huge ship.

To be fair, FFG has done a wonderful job of capturing the iconic feels of both forces. The Rebels are more personally relatable, and each so unique that their loss is keenly felt. The Empire, by contrast, is austere and uncompromising, their pilots generally representing little more than numbers in the eyes of their leadership. The question we have to ask ourselves is, do we really want to disrupt the balance that makes both sides feel so different from each other?

I've got another one:

1. Ship with RecSpec performs a Focus action.

2. We have two "when you perform a focus action" triggers; let's resolve RecSpec first. Gain an additional Focus token.

3. Resolve Jan's trigger; undo the focus action and assign it an Evade token.

4. Lando performs a green maneuver, granting an action to our RecSpec ship. Since we never performed a Focus action, let's do that, triggering RecSpec (which also never happened).

Voilà, 3 focus tokens and one evade token.

I play Rebels and Empire so as much as I love all the new Rebel only crew cards, I would really love some Empire only cards. Hopefully we will get a barraks full worth of villanous Empire cannon fodder crew cards when we get an Imperial Huge ship.

To be fair, FFG has done a wonderful job of capturing the iconic feels of both forces. The Rebels are more personally relatable, and each so unique that their loss is keenly felt. The Empire, by contrast, is austere and uncompromising, their pilots generally representing little more than numbers in the eyes of their leadership. The question we have to ask ourselves is, do we really want to disrupt the balance that makes both sides feel so different from each other?

It's a good balance but something as simple as "Prisoner Leia" or "Han in Carbonite" to go along with the generic, but unique, Rebel Captive would fulfill both indentities. A few Alpha numerical call signs instead of epitaphs and you still get faceless but you also get Empire Only.

Crew is a much easier to fix than the droid disparity and the turret disparity and the action economy combining. Bombs are pretty pathetic (though seismics are making a comeback). Proton bombs might surface more now to combat phantoms, ewings, z's, and the DR3 falcons but they're not enough. The imperials have the tech advantage but that is fairly untapped: royal guard title displays that and the phantom certainly shows that with cloak (but stealth x's are not far from release I'm sure).

What combats the rebels action sharing/swapping/economy? The empire can't keep answering any question with "swarm" if we want this game to not only survive but thrive.

Thanks guys, for making my dreadful Sunday morning a little more enjoyable. This has been incredible...

Can you tell how bored I am~Actually I'm just killing time before I go jump in a pool because it's a million degrees outside.

On a side note, I derive a lot of pleasure watching Wonder drop truth bombs all over the place. Not very diplomatic but very entertaining.

I figured something was amiss if you got dragged into this. Admirable attempt at bringing peace and sense to this argument.

On a side note, I derive a lot of pleasure watching Wonder drop truth bombs all over the place. Not very diplomatic but very entertaining.

I have the tactical finesse of an Ork, what did you expect?

What combats the rebels action sharing/swapping/economy? The empire can't keep answering any question with "swarm" if we want this game to not only survive but thrive.

But that's kind of how the game is designed, around the classic archetype of elite heroes vs. the faceless horde. Rebels have awesome ships with powerful individual abilities, but have fewer total ships. Imperials have less synergy, but make up for it with sheer brutal efficiency and bring more ships. So yeah, the imperial counter to one ship getting two actions should default to bringing two ships with an action each.

What combats the rebels action sharing/swapping/economy? The empire can't keep answering any question with "swarm" if we want this game to not only survive but thrive.

But that's kind of how the game is designed, around the classic archetype of elite heroes vs. the faceless horde. Rebels have awesome ships with powerful individual abilities, but have fewer total ships. Imperials have less synergy, but make up for it with sheer brutal efficiency and bring more ships. So yeah, the imperial counter to one ship getting two actions should default to bringing two ships with an action each.

Except for two things. One, that last notion ends likely in less than a week when the z-95 hits. As for the rest I do think faction identity gets ruined with more cards, as long as those cards maintain that identity., which doesn't have to mean adding cards that have synergy with the other ships.

What combats the rebels action sharing/swapping/economy? The empire can't keep answering any question with "swarm" if we want this game to not only survive but thrive.

But that's kind of how the game is designed, around the classic archetype of elite heroes vs. the faceless horde. Rebels have awesome ships with powerful individual abilities, but have fewer total ships. Imperials have less synergy, but make up for it with sheer brutal efficiency and bring more ships. So yeah, the imperial counter to one ship getting two actions should default to bringing two ships with an action each.

I would say out right action denial is the answer to that question, and it seems FFG has read the tea leaves and addressed this with pieces like Carnor Jax. But I agree, Empire needs more of that moving forward.

And the Z-95's will cry in the face of those mean old Phantoms. Add in that the Rebels don't have a Howlrunner of their own. The Z-95 swarm doesn't exist. Sure, you can go with Missile spam, but that swarm is decidedly different than the TIE swarm.

What is the simplest explanation of this card?

1. That once per turn when a ship withing 1-3 range of Jan, can choose to take an evade token instead of an focus token (when assigned).

OR

2. FFG created an ability which completely wipes an action that has been performed, then assigns a token?

#2, because it matches the printed text of the card. There's a first time for everything, so a card doing something unique doesn't really mean much.

Also, Jan's ability doesn't wipe an action that has been performed, it prevents the action from happening at all. That's why it says "when doing X", not "after you have done X".

I mean a focus action assigns a focus token... so why is there a need for mentioning the focus action also?

Because a focus action doesn't assign a focus token*. In fact this is why Jake's ability is worded the way it is, if it just said "whenever you are assigned a focus token" it would only trigger off abilities like Garven's, not his own focus actions. If your claim here is correct and performing a focus action assigns a focus token then there would be no need for the "perform a focus action" part of Jake's rule, the "assigned a focus token" part would be sufficient.

*Read the rules for the focus action in the rulebook. The word "assign" is never used.

Also note they also distinguish the ship doesn't even have to be assigned a focus token, only "...or would be assigned a focus token". This tells me the intent is if there is an ability to disallow assigning focus tokens, Jan's ability could still take effect.

No, that part of the rule is there because Jan's ability takes effect before the ship actually receives the focus token. It has to be a hypothetical "would be assigned" because it hasn't been assigned yet. And in fact it will never be assigned if Jan's ability is applied.

If there is an ability that disallows assigning focus tokens then Jan's ability will never trigger, assuming it is as straightforward as "focus tokens can not be assigned". If the token assignment is blocked then Jan never sees anything to trigger on.

Did I just win the internet twice?!? ****, I am having one hell of a year!

The fact that you think "I stubbornly argued long enough and made enough zero-content troll posts that the other guy got tired of dealing with me and left the discussion" means you "won" anything is annoying. The fact that you're proud of this childish attitude is just sad.

One, that last notion ends likely in less than a week when the z-95 hits.

Not really. Z-95 swarm is incredibly overrated, and I doubt it's going to be a major factor in the metagame. Rebel lists might take 1-2 of them to boost numbers after taking an expensive elite pilot or two, but without Howlrunner or similar abilities a Z-95 swarm is really just an inferior TIE swarm with different models.

Please stop poking Waaagh via dragging the Doing an Evade Token discussion up again. We've only just got back to civil discussion.

Dude, I thought you bailed on this conversation. What gives?

The fact that you think "I stubbornly argued long enough and made enough zero-content troll posts that the other guy got tired of dealing with me and left the discussion" means you "won" anything is annoying. The fact that you're proud of this childish attitude is just sad.

Oh... well, I have more likes than you, so there. As far as trolling is concerned, you're just jealous that I'm better at it than you are. If you don't like it then maybe you should stop being so absurd, 'k cupcake?

Please stop poking Waaagh via dragging the Doing an Evade Token discussion up again. We've only just got back to civil discussion.

So I'm the bad guy? How dare you.

Too late...