If Echo attempts to Decloak forward right and it overlaps an object (so he can't) does he have to attempt to Decloak forward left (similar to the barrel roll rule) or can he choose to Decloak left or right or not at all?

Thanks

The decloak reference card says you perform a barrel roll. So it should use the same rule a normal barrel roll does: If you cannot do it in one direction, you are free to choose another direction or not do it at all. The biggest difference I can see is that decloak has a third direction.

FAQ page 5, action resolution:

When performing a barrel roll, a player must first declare from which side of the ship’s base the action will be performed. Then, he measures to see if the ship is able to perform a barrel roll action from any legal area on the declared side. If the ship can perform the barrel roll action, it must do so. If the ship cannot perform the barrel roll action, the player may declare a barrel roll in the other direction, or he may declare a different action.

Edit:

So if I choose forward - and forward right with Echo and there is an asteroid in the way I must then go forward left if I can?

So if I choose forward - and forward right with Echo and there is an asteroid in the way I must then go forward left if I can?

I think so, yes.

Just like you need to use the template the other way round on a side barrel roll if that is the only way to barrel roll to that side.

Technically, that forward "2 bank" is a straight maneuver using the "wrong" template. The rules for the boost action do not apply.

So if I choose forward - and forward right with Echo and there is an asteroid in the way I must then go forward left if I can?

If we follow the barrel roll rules, if your decloak and something is in the way,you can either decloak in another direction, or take another action, or in this case I would say,just move

So if I choose forward - and forward right with Echo and there is an asteroid in the way I must then go forward left if I can?

No. The FAQ for barrel roll says you may choose to go the other way (but you don't have to), or you may choose another action (or in this case, choose not to decloack)

So if I choose forward - and forward right with Echo and there is an asteroid in the way I must then go forward left if I can?

No. The FAQ for barrel roll says you may choose to go the other way (but you don't have to), or you may choose another action (or in this case, choose not to decloack)

Problem with that: It is not a barrel roll at all. It is a straight maneuver which happens to use a bank template.

So if I choose forward - and forward right with Echo and there is an asteroid in the way I must then go forward left if I can?

No. The FAQ for barrel roll says you may choose to go the other way (but you don't have to), or you may choose another action (or in this case, choose not to decloack)

Except going forward is a maneuver not a boost. Thus it does not fall under the can not be done if you hit an obstacle or ship. Even with echo's use of the 2 bank

So if I choose forward - and forward right with Echo and there is an asteroid in the way I must then go forward left if I can?

No. The FAQ for barrel roll says you may choose to go the other way (but you don't have to), or you may choose another action (or in this case, choose not to decloack)

Except going forward is a maneuver not a boost. Thus it does not fall under the can not be done if you hit an obstacle or ship. Even with echo's use of the 2 bank

Except that the card itself says it is not a maneuver, and cannot be done "if it would overlap another ship or an obstacle token, or if the maneuver template would overlap an obstacle token".

This is one that I feel needs some clarification, as McBain asked - if you can't go forward right do you have to go forward left instead?

There seems to be some confusion amongst some people posting on here:

If you declare an action (boost/barrel roll) you measure to see if you can do it. If you can, you MUST do it. If you cannot, then you are free to choose a different action. You are not forced to do a barrel roll/boost in the other direction.

The same must go for decloak, choose a direction and attempt to do it. If you cannot, you can either not decloak, or decloak in another direction.

I think there are two interesting questions here.

First: If I try and use the "forward" barrel roll to go right and can't, do I have to go "forward left"? I think the answer here is no - if you can't go right, you don't then have to roll left at all, much less pick a "forward" or "backward" to go with it.

But more interestingly (for me anyway, but maybe I'm weird) what defines "can't complete" for Echo? Or Lorrir for that matter, but he's not as cool

There's no part of the roll action that defines a template choice and when it happens - so you just use the bank template. IMHO, you don't "roll right forward" - you just roll right, and decide where you want to place the template. Just like there are multiple ways you can place the template in a normal barrel roll, there are multiple ways you can place the template in a banking barrel roll. Those ways include "forward" or "backward". If you roll right and want to go forward but can't, but you CAN roll right if you go backwards, I think you have to complete it by going backwards.

The boost equivalent is a little more interesting, since normally boosting does include the left/right direction. But I think it's the same. You aren't actually choosing to boost ahead, left, or right with Echo - decloaking doesn't give you that choice. Technically, you're boosting forward, you're just using a different template to do it. So same would apply - if you can position the template in some legal way, you have to complete that.

I think the FAQ has to address this. Of course the Phantom requires a long FAQ entry himself.

The Decloak cards defines one of the movement choices as "a barrel roll", which would imply that it follows all rules for a barrel roll except that it is done with a 2 long maneuver template instead of a 1 long.

This template cannot overlap an object and the base cannot overlap a ship or object on final position or else the decloak is not performed.

Even though you can flip the template for Echo to a forward curve or backwards curve, you can still have a portion of the template overlapping an asteroid no matter what position it is in.

Echo would have to land the forward right (as per your first attempt) and if he overlapped, he would have to try back right (essentially any right barrel roll maneuver he could perform) as once you declare the barrel roll side you attempt it till you fit it, even if you don't land exactly where you wanted to go.

If Echo could not land in any spot on the right (after forward and backwards curving of the template) then Echo could choose to do the barrel roll on the other side, go forward, or choose not to decloak.

There is also the forward option in this so it isn't as restrictive as barrel rolling but a tournament rules update could help T.O.'s with this kind of brain teaser.

Thanks for all your thoughts but I think the question has become a bit confused, my apologies if I was not clear and I'll try again.

Echo's Decloak options:

1. Barrel rolling with the bank 2 template.

2. Forward with the bank 2 template.

Now we know Echo cannot Decloak if the bank 2 template or final ship position overlaps an obstacle.

In reference to numer 1:

Until an FAQ clarifies I think most would assume this will use the barrel roll rules and once declared on a certain side you need to apply the template anywhere you can to try and fit, including bending and flipping the template back and forth ect. If you can't fit anywhere then choose something else.

In reference to number 2:

Scenario:

Echo chooses to Decloak FORWARD (not barrel roll to the side) and wants to use the template curving to the right. There is an obstacle in the way so Echo cannot Decloak in that position.

Question:

Does Echo now need to flip the template around so he is still Decloaking FORWARD but the template is curving to the left? Or can Echo choose another option or not Decloak at all?

I'm 50/50 on what to think about how the Decloaking rule applies to Echo. Logic and simplicity suggests it should be the same rules as Barrel Roll and Boost (even though forward is not referenced to Boost) but because Decloaking is an 'effect' and not an action maybe you can simply play around in any position and can freely change between Barrel Roll left/right or change to forward.

My current take is that once you declare a Decloak either LEFT, RIGHT or FORWARD you are stuck with that option and need to flip/shift the template around until you fit somewhere if you can.

A mystery this is!

I don't think anyone has confused your Question McBain, but I do think the whole issue is grey.

The most similar situation in the game is a barrel roll or a boost, which has clear rules. and so the argument stems on whether these rules can/will apply.

I would see it as you having to be specific when you try to decloak, ie declaring that you are decloaking forward/right. If you can't complete that specific manoever, you are free to choose a different one (which might even be right side/forwards), or none at all and stay cloaked.

That is how I would interperet it, but think it needs a FAQ in the next update.

EDIT: The reason I am thinking it will work this way, and not the way you have stated is the way that boost works [yes I know it's not boost, but that is the most similar function in the game], whereby you must choose straight/left/right before measuring. I always play Lorrir the same way for his bank roll.

I don't think anyone has confused your Question McBain, but I do think the whole issue is grey.

The most similar situation in the game is a barrel roll or a boost, which has clear rules. and so the argument stems on whether these rules can/will apply.

I would see it as you having to be specific when you try to decloak, ie declaring that you are decloaking forward/right. If you can't complete that specific manoever, you are free to choose a different one (which might even be right side/forwards), or none at all and stay cloaked.

That is how I would interperet it, but think it needs a FAQ in the next update.

EDIT: The reason I am thinking it will work this way, and not the way you have stated is the way that boost works [yes I know it's not boost, but that is the most similar function in the game], whereby you must choose straight/left/right before measuring. I always play Lorrir the same way for his bank roll.

Good stuff - was concerned people thought I was talking Barrel Roll not Forward moves.

All good options I think and I suppose as long as you agree with your opponent/TO how to play it before the game/start then it shouldn't be an issue!

Looking fwd to an FAQ though.

The sideways is covered by the barrel roll but the forward move is not covered by the boost rules but I can see a T.O. ruling something similar to what a boost 1 forward would do; Try forward right, then left. If neither works try barrel rolling or don't decloak.

FAQ will have to address the forward part of the decloak effect.

To me, the reference card reads very clearly.

The card clearly says "perform a barrel roll", which to me reads as "follow the normal barrel roll rules but with a 2 straight/bank template". If you try to decloak left and forward but cannot, you may choose something else. However, you've already spent your cloak token, so it makes sense that you could continue choosing another decloak move.

It's also clear in the wording of order. Spend the token before revealing your dial. Then perform the barrel roll or boost. Then reveal the dial and continue activation as normal.

So that means if you cannot do either of those two options (they are not actions or maneuvers), then you shouldn't move, just decloak where you are and your activation continues as normal.

This will probably end up in the FAQ though.

s1n,

The tournament rules for barrel roll are that you pick a side and then must complete a barrel roll to that side if it fits, even if it is not in the position that you wanted on that side. With the 2 banked barrel roll, that leaves a lot of possible spots, as well as going from angled into position to an angled outward position because the 2 bank can be curved forwards or backwards with a flip of the template.

Part of the decloaking mechanic is the 2 template move. If the 2 move can't be done then the ship can't decloak, and must stay cloaked till it can decloak successfully next round.

So that means if you cannot do either of those two options (they are not actions or maneuvers), then you shouldn't move, just decloak where you are and your activation continues as normal.

The Decloak rules say otherwise:

A ship cannot decloak if it would overlap another ship or an obstacle token, or if the maneuver template would overlap an obstacle token.

You can't spend the token if you can't complete the effect.

The rest is up in the air. "Spend then forced to displace SOMEWHERE" would be very nonstandard for X-wing, which typically lets a failure back out past the point of initiation, and choose something completely different. In this case, that would be attempting to decloak using another direction, or not decloaking at all.

Cloaking is new and different enough that they may surprise us, but it would be a break from how everything else in X-wing works. Until we get official word on that new and different, IMHO we should stick to the pattern.

I thought the rules for barrel rolling and boosting were nice and clear. You declare the roll side, if it doesn't fit, the player may declare the other side or a different action. Same with boosting, declare which template and if it doesn't fit, declare another action. I haven't read anything in the FAQ that says once you've declared a barrel roll to one side, and if it can't be done, you now HAVE to roll to the other. It says you may do that or you may decalre another action. The option is still there. You're only locked into it if the ship can perform it legally.

When it comes to the slippery maneuverability of Echo, I'd be surprised if there wasn't SOMEPLACE he could decloak, but on the absurdly remote chance that there's nowhere legal, then I guess he can't decloak.

I thought the rules for barrel rolling and boosting were nice and clear. You declare the roll side, if it doesn't fit, the player may declare the other side or a different action. Same with boosting, declare which template and if it doesn't fit, declare another action. I haven't read anything in the FAQ that says once you've declared a barrel roll to one side, and if it can't be done, you now HAVE to roll to the other. It says you may do that or you may decalre another action. The option is still there. You're only locked into it if the ship can perform it legally.

When it comes to the slippery maneuverability of Echo, I'd be surprised if there wasn't SOMEPLACE he could decloak, but on the absurdly remote chance that there's nowhere legal, then I guess he can't decloak.

The issue is stemming from the bank templates for echo and lorrir. They are asking if you can't decloak/roll to the left with the bank templage facing forward, are you forced to change it to pointing backwards, as your directionnwas left or right.

My position is that deciding which way fhe template will sit is part of determining side (you say left/back for example, and if that doesn't fit, then left/forward is a different direction, but others are disagreeing.

The issue is stemming from the bank templates for echo and lorrir. They are asking if you can't decloak/roll to the left with the bank templage facing forward, are you forced to change it to pointing backwards, as your directionnwas left or right.

My position is that deciding which way fhe template will sit is part of determining side (you say left/back for example, and if that doesn't fit, then left/forward is a different direction, but others are disagreeing.

Well if you use the boost and barrel roll action rules as a guideline (because it uses both mechanics), the FAQ states you must declare template and direction. If you can do it, you must. If you can''t, you may declare a different template or direction or even a different action.

So the way I see it, if you declare rolling forward left, you're only locked in if you can actually do it. If it doesn't fit, you should be able to declare a roll back left or forward right or any other option, including not decloaking.

To me, the reference card reads very clearly.

The card clearly says "perform a barrel roll", which to me reads as "follow the normal barrel roll rules but with a 2 straight/bank template". If you try to decloak left and forward but cannot, you may choose something else. However, you've already spent your cloak token, so it makes sense that you could continue choosing another decloak move.

It's also clear in the wording of order. Spend the token before revealing your dial. Then perform the barrel roll or boost. Then reveal the dial and continue activation as normal.

So that means if you cannot do either of those two options (they are not actions or maneuvers), then you shouldn't move, just decloak where you are and your activation continues as normal.

This will probably end up in the FAQ though.

First off, if you are unable to decloak due to obstacles in the way then technically you can't spend the cloak token.

To decloak and not move is extremely broken.

Imo there is no need for a faq. It's fairly obvious as to how it works. Just the same as doing a barrel roll/boost. If you can't go one way then do something else

But to simply not move and decloak, broken