You didn't honestly expect anything that was written or created post Endor was going to be left in tact if the three later movies Lucas originally intended were made?

... no?

That's what I just said.

Not as much as you'd think, primarily because the Clone Wars weren't really explored in the EU. The few bumps that did exist have been glossed over by a combined effort of Lucasfilm's Continuity Database and the Clone Wars cartoon, which retroactively inserted some of the EU-originating Clone Wars tech that, due to their EU descriptions, would have been expected in the era (such as Z-95s) into the primary canon.

Still, it would have been a bit ... naive to assume that the new movies would have respected the Expanded Universe. It would have been nice, and easily doable, but given the IP's history, I would not have expected it. To me, the issue seems to be more that the new supplemental material (novels, games, etc) will now depict a different world as well, replacing the old one. Before, it would have been just the movies that may have contradicted the EU.

You didn't honestly expect anything that was written or created post Endor was going to be left in tact if the three later movies Lucas originally intended were made?

... no?

That's what I just said.

We are reading two different posts. You write like the IP owes the EU something. This last line is the kicker.

Before, it would have been just the movies that may have contradicted the EU.

There is no such thing as new movies being made and contradicting the EU. If the EU didn't jive with what was made then it would be the EU contradicting canon.

In regards to the "new supplemental material". It's no different than the EU except now it will be sanctioned as canon, which means if the EU differs from it then it is the EU that is contradicting, not the other way around.

"Owing" is a tricky choice of words. Obviously, there is no true obligation in any legal sense. That being said, it was the Expanded Universe that kept Star Wars alive in the years between RotJ and TPM, so in a way, an argument could be made here.

But no, that's not what I was trying to express. My posts are merely the subjective reflections of someone dissatisfied with this new turn of events affecting a franchise that has brought me much joy and entertainment in the past years - as well as a lack of faith in this approach, in part due to a strong bias born of being witness to many other failed remakes. Nothing more.

There is no such thing as new movies being made and contradicting the EU. If the EU didn't jive with what was made then it would be the EU contradicting canon.

This is splitting hairs. And debatable, depending on whether you analyse the conflict based on level of canonicity or chronological history, which would both be valid approaches.

It is also entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Aside from the EU having been part of SW canon, it would have been quite possible to make movies that either take from the EU, fit into it, or simply don't touch its time window at all. For better or worse, someone simply made a conscious decision to not go down this route.

The EU was not some entity. It was material that was licensed for publication by Lucasfilm. It owned the EU. It's not some separate entity. It all belonged to George Lucas. Every syllable people wrote was his. In other words he owes nothing to himself because it was all his to do with as he saw fit. He licensed out all those novels and games to make money with his IP. People took those licenses not out of the goodness of their heart but because they wanted to make money. Just like now it is all Disney's. It never belonged to anyone else ever. So it isn't splitting hairs. That's the fact.

Aside from the EU having been part of SW canon, it would have been quite possible to make movies that either take from the EU, fit into it, or simply don't touch its time window at all. For better or worse, someone simply made a conscious decision to not go down this route.

To not touch the time window would have excluded the ability to make these new movies. From the small amount of EU that I've come across, I find most of it is crap. There are a few interesting details here and there, but that only accounts for a fraction of a percent of the entirety. I like certain worlds that are visited and a bit of tech here and there, but those are just small details that can easily be grabbed and put into the new canon stories without much effort. It's when the countless Dark Siders keep popping up as straw men for Luke to immediately kill, each new weapon "more powerful than the Death Star", and then the Yuuzhan Vong are thought to be sacred that I take offense. Even Thrawn is badly written in the manner of knowing things he couldn't possibly know. I'm excited that the EU has been thrown out. Take what works from it and develop new stories that are held to a higher quality, or at least attempts to achieve that by having a system in place for oversight and continuity. It's not going to be a perfect system, but at least it gets rid of a lot of crap that was never Star Wars in the first place even if it had the words printed on the covers.

I have to agree to a point. Sooner or later they were going to have to break with the EU if they wanted films with Luke, Leia, and Han in them. However they could have easily followed the EU to around 17 or 18 ABY and than made everything after that Legends rather than just tossing the whole EU into legend land.

So it isn't splitting hairs. That's the fact.

Please, re-read my posts.

1. I have already specifically clarified the lack of any legal obligation in #228. It should not have been necessary in the first place due to context and common sense, but I had a feeling someone would otherwise jump to such mistaken conclusions. Turns out I was right, but I didn't expect this to still occur even after I have clarified my intent.

2. The comment about "splitting hairs" was a direct reference to you feeling a need to distinguish between "the EU contradicting the movies" and "the movies contradicting the EU". Apart from me not seeing what this has to do with the discussion at hand ... what does this have to do with legal matters?

I feel like we have a serious communication problem here.

To not touch the time window would have excluded the ability to make these new movies.

How so? The EU covers only a specific period after the original trilogy. There's plenty of time after it. Or between it, given that there's a significant gap between the last novels and the Legacy comics.

The decision to "override" the EU probably comes from the creators not wishing to bother with reading into the material. In terms of effort, it certainly is the easier choice. Whether it was the right one depends a lot on one's individual preferences when it comes to both the EU as well as consistency in general.

How so? The EU covers only a specific period after the original trilogy. There's plenty of time after it. Or between it, given that there's a significant gap between the last novels and the Legacy comics.

The decision to "override" the EU probably comes from the creators not wishing to bother with reading into the material. In terms of effort, it certainly is the easier choice. Whether it was the right one depends a lot on one's individual preferences when it comes to both the EU as well as consistency in general.

would you really want a movie that doesn't cover aspects that occur in Dark Empire and other EU stories? Would it really seem like Star Wars for all the fans who hadn't read the EU stories/comics? There's some crazy stuff that happens that you can't just pick up on after it happens and go with it. They would have to make EU movies to incorporate that stuff. This way, they incorporate what they want and throw out what doesn't work. All the writers working on new materials that will become canon have been practicing this for some time now. Taking what works in the EU and building upon it. Only now those stories will become official and not a separate canon tier that fans must determine on their own what they consider true canon.

that was one of the biggest disadvantages for EU was the traditional view that most of it wasn't canon at all but in a special category. Disney's approach just eliminates the half-measures that existed before in favor of consistency and allows for the works of comic books, video games, and novels to now exist at the same level as the films. to me that's an improvement upon the universe and will force the writers and editors of the new IPs to be more tasking upon themselves for whether or not they're adding to the mythology of Star Wars or just turning out some IP crap for money.

would you really want a movie that doesn't cover aspects that occur in Dark Empire and other EU stories?

Sure. Why not? There's plenty of EU stories that did not tie into another, yet they were still enjoyable.

Just like the Prequels.

And all of it was still Star Wars - because I think this is chiefly a matter of visual aesthetics and style, not a specific piece of history.

Though, now that you mention a perceived need for "EU movies" ... let's consider how Star Wars started. Did it really hurt anyone that we only got to watch Episodes IV-VII at first? That nobody knew what the Clone Wars that Obi-Wan mentioned were? All we knew about the galaxy up to the attack on Leia's ship was delivered in a tiny intro text, and still it worked out. The very same could easily be done to incorporate the EU, if you really wanted.

Of course, some "lip service" would have been appreciated - I'm sure it did not hurt anyone that the Clone Wars cartoon showed the aforementioned Z-95s, for example. It basically boils down to whether or not the powers-that-be are interested in a greater consistency or not. And a reset was the simpler approach, though I maintain it is the riskier choice.

[...] and will force the writers and editors of the new IPs to be more tasking upon themselves for whether or not they're adding to the mythology of Star Wars or just turning out some IP crap for money.

EU products were already mandated to respect the movies and "add to the mythology". As pointed out before: it was an Expanded Universe, not an Alternate one. The difference was that the movie makers did not have to respect anything the EU put out, making it a one-way street.

Or, in other words, if you really think the writers so far have only been "turning out crap IP for money", then I'm afraid there is no reason to assume this would change.

I think the whole idea is that, with the new canon, they're getting all their ducks in a row so that they'll never have to do that. Everything from here on in is in. Even future screenwriters will be bound by what comes in the new novels and comics.

That appears to be the intent, anyway...

That is what they said at first... then when it finally came down, they said they were throwing IT ALL out and that all previous books will be under the "Legends" banner. How much of this is true remains to be seen.

Just at the moment we have several major televisual adaptions of Sherlock Holmes. There are the Guy Ritchie movies with Robert Downey Jr. and Jude Law. The BBC Sherlock show. The US Elementary one where Watson is Lucy Liu. In the past we have had the Basil Rathbone ones and ones with Jeremy Brett. There are a whole bunch of Russian Sherlock Holmes movies that are very famous there but no one here has ever heard of.

Star Wars was special. It had a cohestiveness that was all handled by that database at Lucas Film maintained. The only person able to break the continuity was Lucas himself.

Honestly, I don't recall anyone official ever saying the books/comics/etc... (other people playing in the sandbox) was canon. I can't find a specific reference of GL ever saying the Bantha/Dark Horse stuff was "official" in regards to "canon". I see people on the Internets mention it here and there, but I see people on the Internets that argue that the sun revolves around The Earth as well....

Incorrect. Per LucasFilm there are (well... WERE) levels of canon. The top ones trump the bottom ones in order.

1. "G Canon" (George canon). It is the films
2. "T Canon" (Television Canon). Mostly refering to the Clone Wars TV Show
3. "C Canon" (Coninuity Canon). Most of the EU Books, Video Games, Comics, etc
4. "S Canon" (Secondary Canon). This contained problematic items and conficts, like the Original Marvel Comics
5. "N Canon" (Non Canon). Alternate Stories (Infinities), canceled items, problematic video games (Star Wars Galaxies).

This link offers up some explaination on what is happening, but it is still all kind of not been offically stated:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Canon_policy

I have a bad feeling they will never clear it up so they can do whatever they want, when they want... and THAT is the heart of what is annoying. You cannot trust anything anymore except the movies, so I guess why bother with them.

EDIT: Actually, this has made me think of something else... so we have these rulebooks, with things like Chiss in them... which are not even canon anymore. No Chiss in any movie.

So it isn't splitting hairs. That's the fact.

Please, re-read my posts.

1. I have already specifically clarified the lack of any legal obligation in #228. It should not have been necessary in the first place due to context and common sense, but I had a feeling someone would otherwise jump to such mistaken conclusions. Turns out I was right, but I didn't expect this to still occur even after I have clarified my intent.

2. The comment about "splitting hairs" was a direct reference to you feeling a need to distinguish between "the EU contradicting the movies" and "the movies contradicting the EU". Apart from me not seeing what this has to do with the discussion at hand ... what does this have to do with legal matters?

I feel like we have a serious communication problem here.

To not touch the time window would have excluded the ability to make these new movies.

How so? The EU covers only a specific period after the original trilogy. There's plenty of time after it. Or between it, given that there's a significant gap between the last novels and the Legacy comics.

The decision to "override" the EU probably comes from the creators not wishing to bother with reading into the material. In terms of effort, it certainly is the easier choice. Whether it was the right one depends a lot on one's individual preferences when it comes to both the EU as well as consistency in general.

The Legends material covers over 40 years after ROTJ, and there aren't IMO any gaps within that timeframe that would allow a new movie.trilogy. If you set a new movie trilogy after Crucible, aka the last Legends novel chronologically, than you have to explain a lot and would basically need a whole movie for the what has happened between ROTJ and now. Their options were to pick a point where their story and the post ROTJ EU story separated, or to shift everything EU into its own timeline.

They chose option B.

As I said earlier I would have chosen Option A, splitting the two timelines at 18 ABY since most of the major story events people would be asking about happen after that point,

all happened after that so the only constraints they would have would be Han and Leia being married and having had at least three kids, and Lando getting married.

Ultimately I will do what I've always done and pick and choose what I want to read or watch or enjoy in whatever form. What is canon and what isn't means little to me. The biggest piece of news that I like is that new movies will be made. Although I will say I have some interest in Marvel's new Star Wars line of comics, but not till graphic compilations. So I probably wouldn't collect anything that piques my interest till about a year after they start.

I think the whole idea is that, with the new canon, they're getting all their ducks in a row so that they'll never have to do that. Everything from here on in is in. Even future screenwriters will be bound by what comes in the new novels and comics.

That appears to be the intent, anyway...

That is what they said at first... then when it finally came down, they said they were throwing IT ALL out and that all previous books will be under the "Legends" banner. How much of this is true remains to be seen.

Just at the moment we have several major televisual adaptions of Sherlock Holmes. There are the Guy Ritchie movies with Robert Downey Jr. and Jude Law. The BBC Sherlock show. The US Elementary one where Watson is Lucy Liu. In the past we have had the Basil Rathbone ones and ones with Jeremy Brett. There are a whole bunch of Russian Sherlock Holmes movies that are very famous there but no one here has ever heard of.

Star Wars was special. It had a cohestiveness that was all handled by that database at Lucas Film maintained. The only person able to break the continuity was Lucas himself.

this was the problem that I had with the structure of canon as it was. Lucas would come along afterwards and change something due to an offhand remark in an interview and that would bungle the whole storyline that had occurred. the system was shot, but because it wasn't something that was actively being vetted and run through for continuity, you ended up with some really strange ideas from some authors existing in the EU that many fans would later have to resolve for themselves in some way -- much like mouthymerc and myself. i've read EU comics and books here and there based on recommendations from what friends have heard were good stories/arcs in the EU, but have always been disappointed by the authors introducing something into the story that doesn't feel like it was ever a part of star wars but a trope of 80s comic books or on the level of bad fan fiction that creates a badass force wielding character who may as well be called Mary Sue.

now i still have my qualms about the novelizations and comics that will be produced, but knowing that whatever investment i make towards reading them or not will be worth it if only to know that they won't be thrown out or retcon'd as often through future ip's in the universe. everything will be canon so it will have to either build upon what has already occurred (going forward) or create something original that i imagine will require much more convincing to get through and not just a impulse of an author to meet a deadline for a fill-in-the-blank star wars project.

also, in regards to EotE including Chiss: the game is based upon canon and EU, but in the abstracted sense of races, locations, and certain events occurring between 0 ABY and 3 ABY. it's a small slice of the EU but they draw upon the resources of what came before and after to insure that the universe is as big as we can all make it. the chiss are there because they are liked well enough by fans. if you want to play by canon rules though you can disallow them for your game. they have a good sidebar regarding canon (or not) on page 295 of the Core Rulebook. the attitude that FFG seems to take is that most of the game plots created using these resources should not involve notable characters in ways that would interfere with canon and therefore can peacefully coexist regardless of being EU or not. they can do this because EotE is not canon and none of the FFG rpg's will ever be canon. it's not in the licensing.

The Legends material covers over 40 years after ROTJ, and there aren't IMO any gaps within that timeframe that would allow a new movie.trilogy. If you set a new movie trilogy after Crucible, aka the last Legends novel chronologically, than you have to explain a lot and would basically need a whole movie for the what has happened between ROTJ and now.

With the chronological gap I was referring to the 90 years between the last novels (Fate of the Jedi) and the beginning of the Legacy comics. That should be more than enough to host a new movie trilogy if you exercise a bare minimum of care for consistency.

And again, why would you need "a movie to explain what happened between RotJ and now", when we also did not have a movie to explain what happened between RotS and ANH? Episode IV is a prime example for why it is entirely okay to "start in the middle" if the story you tell is strong enough to stand on its own two legs rather than relying too much on the setting's history.

Some people might have questions about what happened in the time "in between", but:

- if this information is entirely optional (similar to the Prequels), it may be conveyed by pointing to the existing EU material

- the people that ask are probably of the older generation and thus already aware of the Expanded Universe anyways

A third and fourth option were available. They just went for the easier solution, and it remains to be seen whether this was a clever move.

the system was shot, but because it wasn't something that was actively being vetted and run through for continuity, you ended up with some really strange ideas from some authors existing in the EU that many fans would later have to resolve for themselves in some way

I'm really not sure where you got the idea that the EU was in any way vetted differently than any of the non-movie products created in the New Canon.

If I paid 4 billion dollars for a house, I am pretty sure I would remodel it however I wanted. Those of you that have fond memories of the parties the other guy had are more than welcome to come when I was done. If not, I am sure that others will.

Then again, you are renovating that house in order to continue renting it to the former tenants ...

I'm not disagreeing with your point in terms of legal matters, I just thought the comparison was begging to be expanded upon.

Who said anything about renting it? I bought the house.

If I paid 4 billion dollars for a house, I am pretty sure I would remodel it however I wanted. Those of you that have fond memories of the parties the other guy had are more than welcome to come when I was done. If not, I am sure that others will.

If I paid 4 billion dollars for a vintage Victorian Era mansion with a rich history, I would remodel it, not gut it and start over. Doing that makes it lose its depth and some of its appeal.

If I paid 4 billion dollars for a house, I am pretty sure I would remodel it however I wanted. Those of you that have fond memories of the parties the other guy had are more than welcome to come when I was done. If not, I am sure that others will.

If I paid 4 billion dollars for a vintage Victorian Era mansion with a rich history, I would remodel it, not gut it and start over. Doing that makes it lose its depth and some of its appeal.

It is a 36 year old house. I do get what you are saying, but it is my house now and I can do whatever I like. While some people may have awesome stories about the parties they went to at the other guys house, it isn't the other guys house anymore. Heck, it was never their house either. Maybe they will like my parties, maybe they wont, but I am pretty sure other people will come. You know, the younger folks and the other people that were never part of the 'in' crowd.

The Legends material covers over 40 years after ROTJ, and there aren't IMO any gaps within that timeframe that would allow a new movie.trilogy. If you set a new movie trilogy after Crucible, aka the last Legends novel chronologically, than you have to explain a lot and would basically need a whole movie for the what has happened between ROTJ and now.

With the chronological gap I was referring to the 90 years between the last novels (Fate of the Jedi) and the beginning of the Legacy comics. That should be more than enough to host a new movie trilogy if you exercise a bare minimum of care for consistency.

And again, why would you need "a movie to explain what happened between RotJ and now", when we also did not have a movie to explain what happened between RotS and ANH? Episode IV is a prime example for why it is entirely okay to "start in the middle" if the story you tell is strong enough to stand on its own two legs rather than relying too much on the setting's history.

Some people might have questions about what happened in the time "in between", but:

- if this information is entirely optional (similar to the Prequels), it may be conveyed by pointing to the existing EU material

- the people that ask are probably of the older generation and thus already aware of the Expanded Universe anyways

A third and fourth option were available. They just went for the easier solution, and it remains to be seen whether this was a clever move.

Because if they did a new trilogy focused on Luke, Han, Leia, and the droids set after 41 ABY people who watched the OT will be wanting to know where Chewie was, those who watched the PT will be wanting to know what happened to Coruscant to change it so much, where Han and Leia's granddaughter came from, and why her parent isn't around, and so on.

Not to mention that setting the new movies post Crucible locks them into the decisions made by the writers. They couldn't use chewie if they did that since he got killed for example.

Who said anything about renting it? I bought the house.

If you really want to keep with your comparison, then you didn't buy it for yourself, but because you want to make money with it.

Because if they did a new trilogy focused on Luke, Han, Leia, and the droids set after 41 ABY people who watched the OT will be wanting to know where Chewie was, those who watched the PT will be wanting to know what happened to Coruscant to change it so much, where Han and Leia's granddaughter came from, and why her parent isn't around, and so on.

1. A new trilogy would not necessarily have to focus on Luke, Han, Leia & Co. A few characters do not define the essence of Star Wars - as the forum you are posting in should prove (unless you are playing canon characters in your game).
2. In fact, given the cast of the new trilogy, we already know that Luke, Han and Leia won't be the focus. Which kind of makes sense, given the actors' age and Hollywood's current trend towards younger protagonists.
3. As already pointed out in the last post, those people who do want to know can go read the EU. This information is not crucial to movie(s) at hand; they would be an internally complete story just like the Prequels and the Original Trilogy.
4. ... especially if the new movies are intended for a new generation of fans, as hinted at by the sacrifice of the EU.

All reasoning that is going nowhere... I wanted to say fast, but given the amount of time this discussion is now taking I am more leaning towards excrutiatingly slow.
Your point has been made time and time again. Everyone understands it but not a great many agree, including the people in charge of the story and the owners of the franchise.

1. In fact, given the cast of the new trilogy, we already know that Luke, Han and Leia won't be the focus. Which kind of makes sense, given the actors' age and Hollywood's current trend towards younger protagonists.

Actually, with reports of Harrison Fords accident with a faulty door on the Millennium Falcon he seems to have more of a major role in the movie.

Anakin wasn't driven to the Dark Side by love. He was driven by fear.

If not his love for his mom or Padmé, it would have been being passed over for Jedi Master. I mean, come on, Palpatine was pulling his strings and manipulating him from early on. He used Anakin's fear to turn him, in desperation, to the Dark Side.

Fear of loss was too much for him to bear. Fear led to anger, anger led to hate, and hate led to suffering.

BOOM. Yoda'd.

His fear for what was going to happen to his wife (love). That was the major point being made. Had he not had a wife, or the attachment, he wouldn't have fallen. That was proven time and again in his best friend (obi), being is serious life threatening situations and he, while emotionally involved, retained his cool. Even with Soka too. Anakin was never going to be a "living gospel" of the order, he did things his way with little self preservation, but the dude wasn't afraid for himself. Heck, in the book, it was his love that ever killed his wife while he was becoming Vader.

I don't think the films movies were making that point. It's not like being Force-sensitive suddenly makes one into someone who can't love without becoming evil. Just because someone is a Jedi with Force powers doesn't make him or her incapable of being in a loving relationship. Forgive me, but the idea that love was responsible for Anakin's fall is silly. Anakin had a track record of attachment, fear of loss, and a very poor response to loss when it did happen. He let his emotions rule in a very selfish way: he refused to let go his attachments, and when they finally did leave him (Shmi, Padmé) he acted out violently and destructively.

Of course Anakin was never afraid for his own safety. He rightly (but not necessarily rightfully) confident in his amazing abilities, and perhaps in his destiny as the Chosen One, if he was aware of it. But many times over he displayed unwillingness to let go. Example: Master Luminara Unduli had made peace with the prospect of losing her padawan, Bariss. But Anakin refused to do the same. Example: Anakin refused to wipe Artoo's memory even though he knew it was protocol when entering battle situations. Example: in his unwillingness to let Ahsoka die, he handed over the holocron to Cad Bane. Combine these few examples with all the times he rescued Obi-Wan and others from death, and after a while he builds a track record of being "the one who saves people," so his trend of attachment is either masked by showy heroics or otherwise explained as a selfless attitude.

But love has little to do with his fall. He really thought that he was going to be the most powerful Jedi ever. He couldn't deal with losing his mother, so in his rage he slaughtered those who had held her captive. He couldn't deal with the fact that he was losing Padme, so he knowingly pledged himself to a Sith Lord in order to "save" her. He couldn't deal with the fact that Obi-Wan wouldn't see his side of things, so he sought to kill him. And behind it all was the mastermind of Anakin's fall, Darth Sidious, described as the most powerful Sith Lord in history. He used Anakin's fear of loss, his sense of pride in his abilities, and his clandestine marriage with Padmé to slowly poison him and ultimately to turn him.

And as was pointed out much earlier, in the end, Anakin's love for his son was the thing that redeemed him. In destroying Palpatine, he destroyed himself as well, saved Luke from death, and fulfilled his destiny.

(I understand the arguments about all the wrong he did and how one act of good doesn't balance it out, but we're dealing with a worldview that Lucas fostered, in which one big selfless act can overwrite countless wrongs. Deal with it )

I'll leave the argument with a quote from a wise Jedi of times past:

The Jedi, with their damnable sense of over-caution, would tell you love is something to avoid. Thankfully, anyone who's even partially alive knows that's not true. Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled...but passion is not the same thing as love.

Controlling your passions while being in love...that's what they should teach you to beware. But love, itself, will save you...not condemn you.

...Do you want to avoid the greatest things in life because they come with some complications? Love causes pain, certainly. Inevitably love is going to lead to as much sorrow and regret as it does joy. I suppose there are perfect, eternal loves out there...but I haven't seen any.

How you deal with the bad part of love is what determines your character, what determines the dark side's hold over you.

I know, it's not "canon," but it's wisdom nonetheless.