Besides, we're talking about a universe where starfighters handle like Zeros and Spitfires, beams of laser extend 3 feet and stop, and every planet has exactly one biosphere. In a setting like that, is a fuzzy lizard that makes magic go away that farfetched?

C'mon now, I was very clear, I was responding to the word "sensible", which, as you made clear, none of it is

Honestly, I just don't like it because it doesn't mesh with my concept of the Force, nor do I think it meshes with Lucas'. It's the old "what if we messed with the kryptonite?" trope that bad authors fall back on when they can't think of good characters or motives.

They were only a teeny tiny part of that book so it isn't like the book revolved around the lizards. Plus we have other races like Hutts and that guy in Phantom who are immune to the force as well so it isn't unprecedented or even the first time it happened.

No I agree with whafrog the Vong were just stupid in my opinion also you are talking about a race that immune okay. But an entire technology as well? Yep, that is right the Vong Technology was resistant to Force powers as well even simple ones like Force Move was a bit of a struggle even for Luke and Mara. Now see I don't like what TCW did to Dathomir and everything that revolved around it. In the EU Dathomir had both light and dark side force users on it, in TCW they make Dathomir seem like only dark side users are on the planet period. Nothing else no resistant party of light siders or anything of that nature. They were also referred to more often as witches and not Sith or night sisters. Of course I have a friend where we are at odds about this cause he only likes the TCW side and I am still more partial to the EU side.

Now Mara would be awesome in the movies I agree but I am not banking on it.

Besides, we're talking about a universe where starfighters handle like Zeros and Spitfires, beams of laser extend 3 feet and stop, and every planet has exactly one biosphere. In a setting like that, is a fuzzy lizard that makes magic go away that farfetched?

C'mon now, I was very clear, I was responding to the word "sensible", which, as you made clear, none of it is

Honestly, I just don't like it because it doesn't mesh with my concept of the Force, nor do I think it meshes with Lucas'. It's the old "what if we messed with the kryptonite?" trope that bad authors fall back on when they can't think of good characters or motives.

Now this is a good answer.

Whats TCW?

Yeah the first Vong book I thought was great and sitting in a M113 on radio watch 24 hours a day for 7 days straight I couldn't put it down and actually read it again. Had a cast on my foot so the only good use for me in the field was pulling company radio watch while everyone else did stuff.

I thought the rest of the books in that series were boring. Timothy Zahn was a great Star Wars writer. A shame he didn't write the whole series.

TCW. The Clone Wars.

I think why the "Legends" thing upsets me so much is because of the way I've always looked at Star Wars, ever since I was a kid. What's always appealed to me most is how big and full the Star Wars universe felt. Because of the EU being considered canon, I would watch A New Hope with my dad and be able to tell him the backstories of the various stormtroopers on Tattooine, why Tarkin did the things he did, and the exact make and model of all of vehicles and weapons used in the Battle of Yavin. More than any other fictional setting, Star Wars felt real to me, because 30 years of writers gave almost everything a background and really made the universe come alive.

To say that all of that no longer actually happened makes me feel sad. It takes away one of the most magical things about Star Wars, and for me just kind of turns it into another series of movies rather than this giant, intricate galaxy that's always held my wonder. My favorite stories always had nothing to do with the conflicts between the Jedi and Sith. I can understand claiming that these new movies hold priority over other canon, sure. But to come out and say that the Big Gizz stories, which could in no way possibly affect anything in the new movies, are just not real feels almost mean to me. There's a lot of small, inconsequential stories in Star Wars that wouldn't get in the way of the creative freedom of the new writers; why discard them?

To say that all of that no longer actually happened makes me feel sad. It takes away one of the most magical things about Star Wars, and for me just kind of turns it into another series of movies rather than this giant, intricate galaxy that's always held my wonder. My favorite stories always had nothing to do with the conflicts between the Jedi and Sith. I can understand claiming that these new movies hold priority over other canon, sure. But to come out and say that the Big Gizz stories, which could in no way possibly affect anything in the new movies, are just not real feels almost mean to me. There's a lot of small, inconsequential stories in Star Wars that wouldn't get in the way of the creative freedom of the new writers; why discard them?

Here's the first Googled defintion of the word "legend," for the benefit of all:

leg·end

1. 1.

   a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated.

   "the legend of King Arthur"

"Legend" was undoubtedly a carefully chosen word. Disney doesn't do stuff by accident. "Legend" doesn't mean "it never happened." Legend is something greater than history: it is something ingrained in a culture, embedded in it, informing its psyche. To invariably regard terms like "myth" and "legend" as "untruth" is to impoverish oneself. How many times has the legend of King Arthur been told, re-told, and permutated? King Arthur himself is an historical figure, of course, but the actual historicity of the person is not what we remember. It is his fabled Knights of the Round Table, the sword Excalibur, the prophet/wizard Merlin and much more that Arthur is known for and associated with in legend.

And much like the Star Wars EU, the story of King Arthur is often a very inconsistent one when reading from one account to another, as much in medieval times as today.

There's also a second definition of "legend" that I think is helpful:

1. 2.

   an extremely famous or notorious person, especially in a particular field.

   "the man was a living legend"

This defines the heroes of the Battle of Yavin. It can also define those personalities that exist in the old "history" of the Old Republic, such as Darth Revan, Mandalore the Ultimate, the Jedi General Hoth and the Army of Light, and Galen Marek. The people in the Star Wars universe would latch onto and tell these stories, not because of what actually happened, but because the telling of their stories inspires action, revitalizes hope, and galvanizes resolve.

/waxingphilosophical

[stands up]

[steps forward]

[begins a slow clap]

I think why the "Legends" thing upsets me so much is because of the way I've always looked at Star Wars, ever since I was a kid. What's always appealed to me most is how big and full the Star Wars universe felt. Because of the EU being considered canon, I would watch A New Hope with my dad and be able to tell him the backstories of the various stormtroopers on Tattooine, why Tarkin did the things he did, and the exact make and model of all of vehicles and weapons used in the Battle of Yavin. More than any other fictional setting, Star Wars felt real to me, because 30 years of writers gave almost everything a background and really made the universe come alive.

To say that all of that no longer actually happened makes me feel sad. It takes away one of the most magical things about Star Wars, and for me just kind of turns it into another series of movies rather than this giant, intricate galaxy that's always held my wonder. My favorite stories always had nothing to do with the conflicts between the Jedi and Sith. I can understand claiming that these new movies hold priority over other canon, sure. But to come out and say that the Big Gizz stories, which could in no way possibly affect anything in the new movies, are just not real feels almost mean to me. There's a lot of small, inconsequential stories in Star Wars that wouldn't get in the way of the creative freedom of the new writers; why discard them?

They are your toys play with them how you want. Nobody can take it away from you.

I've read something like 50 Star Wars books since October (all the non-X-Wing and e-books from Shadows of the Empire to the end of the Dark Nest trilogy, which I just finished), and I can say that, while they're certainly fun, most of them are written poorly and/or conceived poorly.

Only minimal, mostly vague, spoilers ahead...

The Thrawn trilogy was good, but the writing is awful! Why are the only expressions on people's faces conveyed by twitching lips? Why is everyone shuddering all the time? How come no one's voice can be described as anything but "going/gone cold," and no one's face as anything but "stony"? Plus, how the hell does a person judge an entire species by a few pieces of artwork? It's a nifty concept, but really untenable. Other than that, the books were good--the story was, for the most part, pretty solid, I though, and the developments made sense.

Too many of the New Republic era books go to great lengths to weaken Luke Skywalker just so they can write a story without having to worry about a powerful Jedi solving everything too fast. Mind you, I like some of the stories where he's in bad shape, but it gets kind of overdone. You know what else gets overdone? Xenophobic, religio-warrior culture species previously unknown to the rest of the galaxy invading, being ruthless, hellbent on their goals, and seditious (Ssi-Ruuk, Yevetha, Yuuzhan Vong). I liked that one author in a YV book even makes light of that. The Dark Nest, at least, sought to present a different sort of challenge, a different foe, with better moral dilemmas.

Speaking of which, almost none of the authors I've read have been able to handle politics within their books--every politician is corrupt, power-hungry, shortsighted, and selfish (either strictly to themselves, or their people). The motivations for many characters from the New Republic era through the end of the YV stuff feel like something a 10 year old came up with. The reasons most of the politicians side against the Jedi are idiotic. Most of the turmoil we see is also idiotic if only due to the simple fact that people don't typically turn on their heroes in the middle of war. Could you imagine if the Navy SEALS received the same sort of treatment the Jedi do in some of these books, for example? I can't, especially if they were clearly leading the fight against an enemy in a meaningful, defensive war. We're not talking about the bull the US has pulled in the Middle East, where the country's motivations are highly suspect, and the goals are nebulous...the people's of the Republic (or their allies) get attacked, brutally. Who's going to realistically cease supporting the heroes in such a conflict? Makes no **** sense.

And while I thought the ysalamiri and vornskr were good ideas, I sincerely disliked the Yuuzhan Vong's emptiness in the Force, and the poor rationalizing and philosophizing that surrounded that trait, as well as the seriously weak conclusion that finally "explained" it at the end of the NJO series. It felt like the team of writers had come up with the idea, but hadn't ever decided on the why, and that was simply much too big a question, too much a focal point of over a dozen novels to leave undeveloped like that.

That isn't to say the books haven't been enjoyable (clearly, something has kept me reading). I'd say some of the best moments in the books are when the authors synthesize the qualities of adventure and excitement from the original trilogy, and represent the stars from those films accurately. When I'm reading about Han and Chewie flying around in the Falcon, yelling at each other, or Luke doing lightsaber acrobatics and marshaling his calm, and can picture them, and hear them, as well as if I were sitting in front of my TV, then I'd say the writer was successful, even with all of the crap that finds its way into most of the text.

Too many of the New Republic era books go to great lengths to weaken Luke Skywalker just so they can write a story without having to worry about a powerful Jedi solving everything too fast.

Great point, kinda like my "messing with the kryptonite" point. Dave Filoni of TCW makes a similar observation about using Yoda. They found they couldn't use Yoda in most of the TCW stories because he'd just solve the problem too quickly. This is why they had to wait until season 6 to give him a good solid story arc, a problem big enough to challenge him, and integral to the future of the galaxy.

The difference here is that Filoni and crew recognized the limits of the storytelling, and didn't try to force it. They gave most of the other problems to weaker figures to solve. In so doing, they broadened the SW universe in a much more sustainable way.

Probably why, for books, the ones I've enjoyed most invariably do not centre around the movie icons.

Too many of the New Republic era books go to great lengths to weaken Luke Skywalker just so they can write a story without having to worry about a powerful Jedi solving everything too fast.

Great point, kinda like my "messing with the kryptonite" point. Dave Filoni of TCW makes a similar observation about using Yoda. They found they couldn't use Yoda in most of the TCW stories because he'd just solve the problem too quickly. This is why they had to wait until season 6 to give him a good solid story arc, a problem big enough to challenge him, and integral to the future of the galaxy.

The difference here is that Filoni and crew recognized the limits of the storytelling, and didn't try to force it. They gave most of the other problems to weaker figures to solve. In so doing, they broadened the SW universe in a much more sustainable way.

Probably why, for books, the ones I've enjoyed most invariably do not centre around the movie icons.

I like some of the stories where Luke is struggling. I just didn't like reading them back to back to back, and in some, it seemed kind of ham-fisted.

As for The Clone Wars, in some ways, the show is much worse than any of the books have been. That comment about Yoda is nice, but fails to acknowledge the dozens of instances where the writers simply disregarded Jedi powers, because they wanted to write stuff in a typically dramatic fashion...having the heroes dive for something, rather than use the Force to catch it, for example. Time and again I think to myself, "Why didn't they use the Force for this simple task, which they have demonstrated they can do previously?" Then there's the fact that the writers don't seem to talk to each other before producing an episode, with significant plot points changing from one episode to the next (ie,: Obi-Wan and Anakin clearly avoiding being drugged by pirates at the end of one episode, only to wake up in a cell at the beginning of the next episode after being drugged by pirates, or characters that have been killed showing up many episodes later looking hale and hearty). And the show is just as bad as the books when it comes to developing solid motivation for the characters and the political climate.

Time and again I think to myself, "Why didn't they use the Force for this simple task, which they have demonstrated they can do previously?"

...(and)...

...or characters that have been killed showing up many episodes later looking hale and hearty). And the show is just as bad as the books when it comes to developing solid motivation for the characters and the political climate.

Can't say I agree with either of these (but then, I prefer TCW to the movies now). The Force is clearly not something they always tap into, it takes concentration and effort...or maybe they rolled dark side pips and didn't want to take the strain, to use an EotE mechanical analogy. I like that it's not always-on-stuff-flying-around.

And I can't think of an example of killed characters showing up later...but keep in mind the shows are not in chronological order. There is a chronological list somewhere online, not sure where though. The "drugged by pirates" isn't exactly a mistake, more misleading, but seems pretty minor.

Time and again I think to myself, "Why didn't they use the Force for this simple task, which they have demonstrated they can do previously?"

...(and)...

...or characters that have been killed showing up many episodes later looking hale and hearty). And the show is just as bad as the books when it comes to developing solid motivation for the characters and the political climate.

Can't say I agree with either of these (but then, I prefer TCW to the movies now). The Force is clearly not something they always tap into, it takes concentration and effort...or maybe they rolled dark side pips and didn't want to take the strain, to use an EotE mechanical analogy. I like that it's not always-on-stuff-flying-around.

And I can't think of an example of killed characters showing up later...but keep in mind the shows are not in chronological order. There is a chronological list somewhere online, not sure where though. The "drugged by pirates" isn't exactly a mistake, more misleading, but seems pretty minor.

There's the episode with a mad scientist who creates an incredibly deadly virus, and is trying to escape with a vial of it, and we're treated to a scene of "keep away" with the vial getting tossed around, and nearly dropping and shattering a couple of times, with the heroes diving after it. It made zero sense for them to not simply use the Force to grab it out of the air. Even if you want to look at it as rolling dark side pips...well, Anakin and Ob-Wan have something like a Force Rating of 5-7 at the time, so that's highly unlikely, and we know Anakin has no aversion to tapping into the dark side, especially when it's for a good reason. There are plenty of examples of this throughout the series.

I didn't realize the show wasn't in chronological order. That excuses some of this (one example I'm thinking of is the Rodian senator who dies, I think in season 2, showing up halfway through season 3).

The drugged by pirates thing was definitely a mistake. One episode ends with the two Jedi seeing through the ruse and swapping glasses with pirates to either side, and we see those pirates fall over unconscious while our heroes are okay just as the episode ends. The next one starts with them recovering from being drugged unconscious. There are other examples of this that I've noticed, and while they aren't necessarily major issues, stuff like this bothers me, and seems incredibly sloppy. For reference, I was a little annoyed that, while reading the EU books, 3 separate books/authors describe the Solos taking their kids to see the ocean for the first time (I believe it was twice on Coruscant and once on Mon Calamari). I know it's a minor slip up, but I notice that stuff, and don't like it. It won't ruin the experience for me if it's minor, but it leaves a bad taste, and sometimes it isn't all that minor.

Another problem I have with TCW is that it's incredibly repetitive: we return to the same handful of planets again and again and again...without ever being told why they're important (what the hell is so important on Ryloth, or Felusia that they're perpetual battlegrounds? I thought the former was a fairly barren place). How many times does General Grievous escape capture? How many times do the Jedi allow someone to escape, because they don't want to kill an unarmed opponent, or are trying to take a moral high road...when allowing that person to escape will clearly lead to thousands, if not millions of deaths? There's also something lost when we know that X character will not die or get seriously maimed, because they appear in Episode 3. If I were the writers of the show, I'd have put in extra effort to create and develop interesting characters that they can kill later on during the show, just to avoid these sorts of problems, but most of those characters they have to work with...continue to be protected by story armor anyway.

Also, why are the droids so incredibly stupid? I understand that they're probably somewhat ineffective because it's cheaper to build large numbers of mediocre models than a smaller number of the better versions, like the assassin droids, but what reason is there to never update their programming, other than for comedic effect?

Part of the reason why the Clone Wars seems repetitive for the first three seasons (it stops being that way after season 4) is because Seasons 1 thru 3 were told outside of sequential order.

In reality they weren't actually just going back to Ryloth of Felusia as perpetual battlegrounds. The Battle of Ryloth was actually one event, they just told the story spread out over 3 different seasons.

You can find the full list of including the order of all the episodes here.

http://www.nexusroute.co.uk/the-clone-wars-chronological-order

I actually didn't watch the Clone Wars until after it was finished because I had the same problems with it that you had upon my original viewing of the first season.

So when I watched it later I watched the episodes in their chronological order and it was a lot better.

Part of the reason why the Clone Wars seems repetitive for the first three seasons (it stops being that way after season 4) is because Seasons 1 thru 3 were told outside of sequential order.

In reality they weren't actually just going back to Ryloth of Felusia as perpetual battlegrounds. The Battle of Ryloth was actually one event, they just told the story spread out over 3 different seasons.

You can find the full list of including the order of all the episodes here.

http://www.nexusroute.co.uk/the-clone-wars-chronological-order

I actually didn't watch the Clone Wars until after it was finished because I had the same problems with it that you had upon my original viewing of the first season.

So when I watched it later I watched the episodes in their chronological order and it was a lot better.

Yeah... I'm into season 5 now. If I had known, I would have done the same, and probably would have enjoyed the show better as well.

I love the Clone Wars, but you can't really blame an ice cream cone for not fulfilling all your nutritional requirements. There are smarter shows for that.

It's why I gave up on the books; who wants to spend their free time reading garbage just because it's 'more Star Wars'? At least with the Clone Wars, you get great visuals and sound.

You can find the full list of including the order of all the episodes here.

http://www.nexusroute.co.uk/the-clone-wars-chronological-order

Thanks for this. I made it around half way through Season 1 before giving up. Perhaps this will help a bit, even if some of the logic problems included in cartoons will still be there.

I love the Clone Wars, but you can't really blame an ice cream cone for not fulfilling all your nutritional requirements. There are smarter shows for that.

It's why I gave up on the books; who wants to spend their free time reading garbage just because it's 'more Star Wars'? At least with the Clone Wars, you get great visuals and sound.

I like TCW. There were some episodes that were great, some were crap. I watched em all mostly because I started by looking up the coolest character/story episode lists, and went from that and once on those was hooked.

I like TCW. There were some episodes that were great, some were crap. I watched em all mostly because I started by looking up the coolest character/story episode lists, and went from that and once on those was hooked.

Precisely. There are plenty of episodes I will probably never watch again (and a couple that hurt my brain). However, they have replaced the movies entirely when I need inspiration for world building and enhancing verisimilitude in my games.

If I was Hondo, I would have drugged all the drinks to make sure I got them. Who cares about the minions.

Just because we see them switch the ones they noticed being drugged, doesn't mean they saw all of them.

If I was Hondo, I would have drugged all the drinks to make sure I got them. Who cares about the minions.

Just because we see them switch the ones they noticed being drugged, doesn't mean they saw all of them.

I agree, I think that was done cinematically to show Obi Wan and Anakin were concerned about that and trying to out think Hondo and then showing Hondo was wise enough to know he would have to do just that to get a pair of Jedi.

I took me 3 or 4 seasons to start liking TCW, then...then they resurrect Darth Maul! Really!? Was that necessary??? Could not they just create a new adversary? Was this a lot of creative effort?

I was really displeased, with this, and with the fact that no major character dies or gets (permanently) captured ever! Ventress, Grievous, Cad Bane ...too many seasons to cover such a short time spam? I guess I am just too old for these cartoon stuff.