And yes, I realize my last post had absolutely nothing to do about drones and how many can be fielded. Do I need to sit in time out?

yes pearldrum you have strayed from the path of drone controllyness, I have contacted the inquisition and they will be round shortly to put you the naughty corner

On a serious note;

I quite like the idea of Classified Competance actually making you better at things you are supposed to be good at. Taken to its logical conculsion I'd love to see a Origin Path setup for the Xenos races the same way we do for the human members of the RT party.

Regards

Surak

Also the Heavy Railgun barely scratches a Leman Russ's paintjob. Lelwut? What happened to the good ol' MoX stat of 3d10+30I Pen 15?

Oh, actually that fits what happened to them on the tabletop.

6th edition codex tore the railguns off the broadsides. They no longer HAVE railguns. Instead they have a 'heavy rail rifle', which are just S8. No better than a melta outside melta range, although they do have decent range.

Basically they went from your primary anti-vehicle suit to Anti-carapace heavy-missile-pod users. This is part of the reason there's a lot more hammerheads and riptides fielded now, though it does not come close to making up for the loss against extremely mechanized army lists.

I agree with adding a bit to the 'competencies', as other character creation sections all involve some stat changes. Tau have basically the lowest starting stats overall as a result.

I strongly support suit structure or toughness modifiers, both because there's NO way you're anywhere close to as tough as you should be if you're not getting a multiplier like marines, and because you shouldn't be equally tough in lighter suits as in the heavier ones. Let us not forget that many things bypass armor, but that battlesuits are still supposed to be granting you some toughness against the wounds in the first place!

Basically they went from your primary anti-vehicle suit to Anti-carapace heavy-missile-pod users. This is part of the reason there's a lot more hammerheads and riptides fielded now, though it does not come close to making up for the loss against extremely mechanized army lists.

You haven't played much with/against Missilesides, have you? They eat vehicles for breakfast, and AV14 is pretty much the only protection against them.

Sniper drone team in 4th ed consisted of a guy with a Drone Controller and three sniper drones. This is a case of pre-6th allowance of more than two drones per drone controller- but I'm pretty sure he was also modeled with a fairly substantial comms-array thing, which may have been an advanced, nonstandard drone controller.

I already mentioned this.

"l'll meet you half way on this one. I believe there are circumstances where an upgrade marked as 'Drone controller' can and does control more than two drones (the sniper team, shadowsun) so clearly its possible."

Greg, I am completely aware of the rules in 6th edition. However, I have only been talking about the 5th edition codex in all of my posts. Any reference to 6th edition is irrelevant because I stated in my first post that there had been recent changes, not least of which is what drone controllers actually do. In 5th ed they allow you to take drones, in 6th ed they allow drones to fire at users ballistic skill. The rules between codices have changed dramatically because of this. My argument is that this ruling has not been supported for as long as you think it has with reference to your comment "since when did drone controllers only allow for two drones" (i.e before sixth edition) so I am only discussing the previous codices. Please don't change the subject.

A shield drone has always conferred a 4+ invulnerable save. So this is not a change. The difference is that now a shield drone has a base Toughness of its own, whereas previously they assumed the toughness of the user so as not to cock up majority toughness of the unit. Shield drones are infinitely worse in 6th edition.

As for the example with Crisis Suit weapons, that seems to be a hold over from previous editions. Some people see a change like that and err on the side of caution because Crisis suits have never been able to take two single weapons before, despite people really wanting them to be able to. I'd imagine many players assumed they couldn't if the rules were unclear in the spirit of sportsmanship.

The other type of player are the people who insist that the riptide can be joined as a unit because it has the ability to take drones. Now that is something they really need to FAQ

Ok, so you are talking about 5th Ed. The previous Tau codex ( which came out in 2005 and makes it 4th Ed ), doesn't limit a drone controller to 2 or less drones. What it does do, is limit how many drones that can be taken as personal wargear.

What the 4th Ed codex clearly does, is give the Firesight Marksman 3 drones that are controlled by a single drone controller, without giving the Firesight Marksman any special rule to allow his drone controller to control more than 1 or 2 drones. Between this is and the words "between the operator and a number of drones " in the Drone Controller entry, it demonstrates that there was no limit, other than what was allowed as drones taken as per the FO and drones taken as personal wargear rules.

So you have ~9 years of permission, vs. the ~4 years between the time when the Tau first came out in 2001 and when the previous Tau codex came out ( more than double the time ). So yes, the Drone Controller being able to control more than 2 drones, has been around quite a while now and is not limited to the newest Tau codex or 6th Ed.

As for the Riptide being joined by an IC, I really didn't see that as any different than a Necron IC joining a Canoptek Spyder unit, because the Spyder unit could consist of more than 1 model, and the rule was against a single MC model - I didn't have an issue with it either way. As it stands now, all that the ruling in 7th Ed did was solve one issue and cause a new one in it's place, because now we also have an IC that is also a MC, from the Farsight Enclaves.

I really feel like you aren't even reading what I'm saying any more, because you keep repeating things I said or ignoring them. I admitted some time ago that there were circumstances where having multiple drones was possible, yet I still see no evidence that it applies (or has any mechanical benefit) to a Battlesuit. Please stop making me repeat myself. Its tedious.

What your example (which I agree with) proves is that certain units can take more than two drones (Sniper team, Shadowsun). It does not prove that there are any governed circumstances where a (non experimental) battlesuit can have more than two. This logically seems to be because there could be many types of 'drone controller' with different capabilities and naming them as separate entries would seem pointless because "surely no one will be this pedantic". Well, slow clap...

I think we've established exactly what kind of player you are by this stage (especially with that comment about the riptide). This is why GW don't give us nice things GREG!

I just seen this on drivethru. Holy hell this is awesome!! How come they made this PDF? Like why? Was it intentional, or was this part of their scraps for a tau book that got canned? How come I never heard of this. I need some details here. I wish they had rules for the other castes. Maybe another pdf in the future with some additions?

I would fully support seeing these additons.

Also is there any chance we can get them to do more races in mini pdf style? Also does anyone feel this is inspired by Numenera and its succesful glimmer systyem? Seems very similar.

Edit

I'm going to convert these weapons over to DW scale (errata) as soon as possible.

They are releasing PDF content. They also released 4 loosely connected scenarios for DH/DW/BC/OW.

Brief review of the DW scenario is here . I assume, perhaps awrongly, the main criticism applies to the others as well.

Alex

YiSSSSS!!!! Good news. I love the DLC already for Rogue Trader. Hope we can see some other lines get some as well. Maybe they can add some additional enemies to some of the game lines in mini bestiaries. Just to flesh out the rosters in some of the other lines.

I'm going to do a rough conversion of them and use them as the to make a cool Tau battlesuit nemesis for them to fight. I already converted the weapons stats over to DW in a rough form.

http://40kroleplay.weebly.com/40k-roleplay-blog/40k-5e-to-deathwatch-rpg-ranged-weapons-conversion-guidelines

If you compare Tau weaponry TT stats with errata 1.1 stats using the guidelines, you will find large congruency. Should make your life easier.

Alex

I'm not actually familiar with the TT rules. I'm just kind of estimating things. I know some basics.

Edit

Figured it out.

Edit

How do I tell what a guns rate of fire is on the TT rules? The only thing I'm confused at right now.

Assault 2- Storm bolter or automatic shotgun (it's assault 2, right?). Heavy 3- heavy bolter or Reaper autocannon. Heavy 1- Lascannon, missile launcher.

For those still interested in the purpose of the thread, this is the super simple Fate Point chart I have used to get my Fire Warrior some more of that beautiful logical PC luck. That whole 1 Fate Point thing is garbage IMHO.

Roll 1d10 and use the following chart to determine Fate Points:
- 1-2: 1 Fate Point
- 3-7: 2 Fate Points
- 8-9: 3 Fate Points
- 10: 4 Fate Points

I get the one fate point thing- it's the whole "no tie to the Warp" thing. I really do get it.

I think maybe Tau should have gotten some bonus in exchange for the no fate points, or at least had a chart going from 1-2. Maybe 1-3 if Farsight Enclave.

Pearldrum, I get your desire to give Tau plenty of fate points, but I think you may have overcompensated there. That's just me, though.

I get the one fate point thing- it's the whole "no tie to the Warp" thing. I really do get it.

I think maybe Tau should have gotten some bonus in exchange for the no fate points, or at least had a chart going from 1-2. Maybe 1-3 if Farsight Enclave.

Pearldrum, I get your desire to give Tau plenty of fate points, but I think you may have overcompensated there. That's just me, though.

How about have a system like the Dark Elder Player character's Pain Tokens where they can earn "Greater Good" counters or something to replace the lack of fate points.

Have it for things like using the Guardian talents and other "For the Good of All" actions

Regards

Surak

I get the one fate point thing- it's the whole "no tie to the Warp" thing. I really do get it.

I think maybe Tau should have gotten some bonus in exchange for the no fate points, or at least had a chart going from 1-2. Maybe 1-3 if Farsight Enclave.

Pearldrum, I get your desire to give Tau plenty of fate points, but I think you may have overcompensated there. That's just me, though.

How about have a system like the Dark Elder Player character's Pain Tokens where they can earn "Greater Good" counters or something to replace the lack of fate points.

Have it for things like using the Guardian talents and other "For the Good of All" actions

Regards

Surak

I like it. But why doesn't "Touched by the Fate" Points work for them? Just curious.

Aside from personal issues justifying it from a lore perspective, Fate Points are mechanically more than just a "They aren't in tune with the Warp."

They are very cinematic, heroic game moments that help PCs (regardless of race) stand out in a universe filled with literally billions of others who would be just like them otherwise.

Regardless of the fact that the Tau are removed from the Warp, playing a Tau PC should still be a heroic MF with some Bruce Willis moments. Basically, they are the "Greater Good" tokens that my guy Surak mentioned.

As for overcompensating... perhaps. I thought a natural 10 being the only way to get 4, with the majority being 2 and then only a 20% chance of getting 3 is pretty nerfed. I guess I could drop the chart to a max of three. Either way, when I rolled on it I only rolled a 4. 2 FPs it is.

Also , why doesn't the Kroot Hunting Rifle have a Melee profile? Kroots are supposed (afaik) to be the melee beasts of the Tau forces, and the description and depiction of the weapon clearly includes melee attachments.

Kroots are no longer melee beasts in the new codex (they are slightly worse in close-combat than a DKoK guardsman) and I guess you are supposed to equip the Kroot rifle with a melee attachment to have a melee attack.

So I guess those hooks, edges and spikes are all just for show? Like I said, even the basic Kroot Rifle in RT Core has a melee profile, and the Kroot Hunting Rifle not having one is just as odd as the Longshot Pulse Rifle not having Gyro-Stabilised.

Hunting rifles lost their melee attack in return for extra snipey-ness. This was a thing in the original Kroot Mercenaries codex in chapter approved.

(...)there is no real advantage to taking drones without taking at least 1 level of Drone Handler, and even then you are limited to controlling the number of drones equal to your INT bonus, and as such tends to be self limiting.

50 Intelligence and GQ Cerebral Implants says 10 drones. Eleven attacks a round, huh?

As long as you've actually got 10 gun-drones, fine - as long as you're basically telling all the drones "get that guy" I'd have no problem with it. If they're trying to split fire and fight 10 seperate one-on-one engagements at once, I may call shennanigans on that player. Or have people ignore the drones and just shoot him.

I am completely aware of the rules in 6th edition. However, I have only been talking about the 5th edition codex in all of my posts. Any reference to 6th edition is irrelevant because I stated in my first post that there had been recent changes

Which makes no sense, since the RT DLC is clearly based on the 6th edition codex.

I wanted to refer to battlesuit durability: I think battlesuits should get a little buff by "extra wounds", lets call it "Armour structure points".

Stealth: 0 ASP

Crisis: 5 ASP

Hazard: 18 ASP

Enforcer: 7 ASP

iridium: 10 ASP

Broadside: 11 ASP

Riptide: 40 ASP

Also, unnatural strength is a must-add.

@ pearldrum1 I'd say the 1FP thingy is balanced by the extra things they can do with those. If you really want to give some of them more, I'd say 1-7 1FP 8+ 2FP.

Also, hi everyone, first post!

In my DW conversions I'm giving the suits unnatural toughness and strength for sure. On top of that some named commanders will have 1-2 fate points.

If I was running them in Rogue Trader I might still consider giving them those. And I agree with the 1-7 1 FP and 8-10 2FP.

This "no Fate Points" stuff seems to be nonsense, to me. Tau characters in Mark of the Xenos have Fate points, and Human Blanks don't lose their access to Fate points, despite having truly NO connection to the Warp. Oh well, I suppose they needed SOME mechanic to say "they are different, and this demanded its own book-like thing."

I wanted to refer to battlesuit durability: I think battlesuits should get a little buff by "extra wounds", lets call it "Armour structure points".

Stealth: 0 ASP

Crisis: 5 ASP

Hazard: 8 ASP

Enforcer: 7 ASP

iridium: 10 ASP

Broadside: 14 ASP

Riptide: 40 ASP

Just a small note: the Crisis and the Broadside should have similar "damage buffers" as the two suits essentially have the same bulk (just in different distribution as the Crisis is "back heavy" with its jetpack while the Broadside is "blocky big"). Also, the Hazard should top both suits as the XV9 is remarkably bigger than the other two mid-tier suits.

By the way, Stealth suits have got a massive nerf to their stealth field generators, and I didn't notice it until our test game today morning. I'm rather disappointed as I loved the active/passive mechanic and this new SFG rule is super-unfluffy .

I wanted to refer to battlesuit durability: I think battlesuits should get a little buff by "extra wounds", lets call it "Armour structure points".

Stealth: 0 ASP

Crisis: 5 ASP

Hazard: 8 ASP

Enforcer: 7 ASP

iridium: 10 ASP

Broadside: 14 ASP

Riptide: 40 ASP

Just a small note: the Crisis and the Broadside should have similar "damage buffers" as the two suits essentially have the same bulk (just in different distribution as the Crisis is "back heavy" with its jetpack while the Broadside is "blocky big"). Also, the Hazard should top both suits as the XV9 is remarkably bigger than the other two mid-tier suits.

By the way, Stealth suits have got a massive nerf to their stealth field generators, and I didn't notice it until our test game today morning. I'm rather disappointed as I loved the active/passive mechanic and this new SFG rule is super-unfluffy .

OK, I adjusted the values (new broadside is way more massive btw). I'm not sure how big exactly is the Hazard suit. Is it a midpoint between broadside and Riptide?

Stealth rules make no sense, I just adjusted them to give +20 to concealment, stealth and shadowing tests. (essentially making it mobile version of Cameleoline cloak). The rules in the character guide do not make stealthing easier, only more effective- it is simply stupid (especially compared to tabletop +3 to cover save).

P.S. Old vs New Broadside:

Sent this to the Rules Questions mailbox thingy: The Tau Character Guide provides access to control 'a number of drones', without specifying exactly how many you can normally acquire, or use at one time. Swarm Protocols refers to allowing you to control up to your Intelligence Bonus in drones, but is there a limit other than that?

Good Question!

There is actually no formal limit to the number of drones that can accompany a character with a drone controller (although the GM would be encouraged to keep this within reason - more than a few drones would very likely get unwieldy to track, if nothing else). However, even with orders, these drones behave according to their own (limited) artificial intelligence. In this way, they are much like any other allied NPCs who might be accompanying the Explorers (except that in the Koronus Expanse, they are rather more expensive to acquire than disposable hirelings - I would expect that a Drone would have an Availability of Near Unique there).

Swarm Protocols applies specifically to abilities that allow the Drone Controller to use his Actions to have his drones act, such as the Priority Fire Talent and the drone controller wargear’s ability to allow drones to use their controller’s Ballistic Skill in place of their own. This is where a Drone Controller surpasses any other character accompanied by drones, as a character with this Alternate Career Rank can make much more effective use of his or her drones thanks to these abilities.

I hope that this helps!

--

Max Brooke

RPG Producer

Fantasy Flight Games

mbrooke@fantasyflightgames.com

Tl;dr There's no limit on how many drones you can have or use at once with a drone controller save for GM fiat and availability of Acquisition.