I really feel like you aren't even reading what I'm saying any more, because you keep repeating things I said or ignoring them. I admitted some time ago that there were circumstances where having multiple drones was possible, yet I still see no evidence that it applies (or has any mechanical benefit) to a Battlesuit. Please stop making me repeat myself. Its tedious.

What your example (which I agree with) proves is that certain units can take more than two drones (Sniper team, Shadowsun). It does not prove that there are any governed circumstances where a (non experimental) battlesuit can have more than two. This logically seems to be because there could be many types of 'drone controller' with different capabilities and naming them as separate entries would seem pointless because "surely no one will be this pedantic". Well, slow clap...

I think we've established exactly what kind of player you are by this stage (especially with that comment about the riptide). This is why GW don't give us nice things GREG!

Is there a reason why it shouldn't apply to a Battlesuit?

As for what kind of player I am, you are again making a false assumption. I simply play by the rules given, and if GW is going to give us a model then they also need to give us ALL the rules that apply to that model. By strict interpretation of the rules that apply to a MC, Riptides can be a multi model unit, and so an IC can join, and if GW didn't want an IC joining it, then they should of added phrase to the effect that 'Riptides may not be joined by an IC' - just 8-9 word phrase and yet at no point in 6th Ed. did the Tau FAQ / Errata ever say that the Riptide couldn't be joined by an IC. So to many people this is understood to be permission.

As far as I was concerned I really didn't care one way or the other, other than the fact that I had to keep in mind that any given opponent may interpret that rule different than other opponents.

You haven't played much with/against Missilesides, have you? They eat vehicles for breakfast, and AV14 is pretty much the only protection against them.

-------------------------BS5Hits---AV12---AV13----AV14

Heavy 4 S7 AP4 3.333 1.111 0.555 ----

Heavy 1 S10 AP1 0.833 0.694 0.555 0.4165

Against AV 13 your odds of a damaging shot are equal with the railgun, but the AP1's bonus helps put it ahead a little.

Missilesides are great against Sentinels and folks in carapace (as I'd stated), but you shouldn't be relying on them to pop Russes from the front. And what I said still stands: They're not the premier and ever-so-reviled vehicle annihilator they were when "broadsides" meant 2 or 3 TL railguns putting holes in monoliths any longer.

You haven't played much with/against Missilesides, have you? They eat vehicles for breakfast, and AV14 is pretty much the only protection against them.

-------------------------BS5Hits---AV12---AV13----AV14

Heavy 4 S7 AP4 3.333 1.111 0.555 ----

Heavy 1 S10 AP1 0.833 0.694 0.555 0.4165

Against AV 13 your odds of a damaging shot are equal with the railgun, but the AP1's bonus helps put it ahead a little.

The point of the Missilesides is to glance the target vehicle to death with volume of fire rather than explode it with a penetrating effect. 3 of them can one-volley AV12 no problem without markerlight support as they do exactly 3 HP damage with 12 shots (9 hits, 3 glances). Oddly enough, 3 TL S10 AP1 shots can't do the same (2.25 hits, and either 1.89 HP damage or 0.49 explodes result). Really, the only advantage S10 AP1 has over the HYMP is that it can hurt AV14 - at the cost of versatility and thus tactical flexibility.

By the way, yesterday I had a game with this new supplement as the part of an all-suit party (1 Kamikaze Steath, 1 Crisis, 1 Hazard and 1 Broadside (me)). My experience about the suits is that they are ded tough as long as the enemy tries to hurt them with single-shot high-damage weapons (stuff that is supposed to be good against them) but they are so weak against rapid-firing weapons it isn't even funny. I swallowed some 4 krak missiles inside my Broadside suit at the cost of losing my HYMP (still had a HRR to boot) then 2 random Storm Troopers showed up with their hellguns and the battle ended there for me .

Krak Missiles are notoriously underpowered in 40K RP. Melta or Plasmacannons or Lascannons are where it's at.

Alex

Krak Missiles are notoriously underpowered in 40K RP. Melta or Plasmacannons or Lascannons are where it's at.

Alex

I would have soaked those too in the same way. The battlesuit critical damage chart doesn't care about damage - a 89 damage nuke has the same chance to fry a suit than a 2 damage lucky lasgun shot. And this is why rapid firing weapons are so dangerous: lots of rolls from minor damage = dead battlesuit.

So, has anyone come up with any hard fixes to this? I know the notion of adding structural integrities to the various suits was tossed around.

Has anyone actually done this yet? Alex, you are usually on top of this sort of thing.

As far as I can tell, it's supposed to model that random hits are unlikely to hit the pilot and likelty to harm the armour instead.

You could either add the total damage rolled to the d100 roll. Or you could allow for called shots on the pilot's chamber, by-passing the 1d10 roll for which table to use. Or both.

I think I would only go for the called shot thingy. This allows me as GM to let the mooks be less dangerous and PCs walking all over them, potentially. And some main antagonists be a real bastard going in for the kill, ie burnt fate points. If that makes the player hate the NPC, all the better.

Also the nuke example raises for me the question whether AOE attacks should harm both the armour and the pilot inside!

But that might be a bit too cruel.

Alex

Having done a little tweaking, I've put together a few rough changes to the existing suit profiles; nothing huge, but I'd appreciate any insight and opinions people might have concerning these changes. Some of the language could do with being refined to provide greater clarity, but there are just my notes thrown up here for review.

Battlesuit Critical Effects Table:

There is no longer a roll required to determine whether this table is used or not; when a battlesuit's structural integrity is brought below 0, it always rolls on this table. All existing rules for repairing Critical Damage remain. Note that as a result, any talents the pilot may possess that reduce critical effects do not apply.

Armour Vs. Vehicles:

The XV25 Stealth Suit is counted as powered armour; it conforms to the physiology and position of its pilot, meaning that the pilots legs are located within the legs of the suit, and so on for the arms, head and torso. As such, it operates much like powered armour does; rather than providing a static strength bonus of its own, it grants a +20 bonus to the pilot's Strength characteristic, as it enhances existing force rather than providing force of its own. Any gear, equipment and/or weapons mounted onto the suit do NOT factor into the suit's maximum carry weight, as they have integral systems to the suit and thus their weight is accounted for. Any additional weight is factored normally, using the pilot's SB (modified by the suit) and TB. Called shots aimed at specific points of the suit, if successful, strike the character in the specified point as normal.

All other forms of battlesuit count as vehicles rather than armour; they do not rely upon the pilot to provide them motive force, nor does the pilot's extremities correlate to the limbs of the suit. The pilot is contained entirely in the "torso" of the suit, which operates as the vehicle's cockpit. As such, these suits do not add the pilot's TB to reduce incoming damage, nor do they use the pilot's Wounds to track their own damage; instead, they have a separate pool of Structural Integrity that represents the amount of damage they can sustain before system failures become likely to occur. Called Shots may not be used to target the pilot, as the vehicle counts as being Enclosed unless suitable damage occurs that would make the pilot visible (Note: May need to modify the existing Critical Table to include such a result, but until then it is left to the GM's discretion whether existing damage results would make the pilot visible or not). Any abilities that require line-of-sight from the TARGET operate as normal, as the suit has full sensory capabilities that the pilot utilizes, however abilities that require the user to have line of sight to the target may not directly affect the pilot while the suit is enclosed, although such abilities may affect the suit itself as normal.

Battlesuits, similar to dreadnaughts, utilize several of the pilot's Characteristics, while replacing others. The Pilot retains their Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Toughness, Intelligence, Perception, Willpower and Fellowship while piloting a suit, but replace their existing Strength and Agility scores with those of the suit. Any effects, abilities or powers that bypass the battlesuit and affect the pilot directly use their own Characteristics rather than that of the suit, and any damage they may receive when target by such abilities comes off their Wounds total rather than the suit's Structural Integrity. Finally, the suit does not count any mounted systems, weapons or equipment towards it carry limit based upon its Strength Characteristic, but for the purpose of attempting to carry additional objects, the suit uses its own SB, without adding the Pilot's TB to the total.

Modified Battlesuit Stats:

XV8 Crisis - Armour; 12 / Size; Enormous / Hard Points; 3 / Strength; 60 [unnatural Strength x2] / Structural Integrity; 10

xv9 Hazard - Armour; 16 / Size; Enormous / Hard Points; 4 / Strength 70 [unnatural Strength x2] / Structural Integrity; 20

XV8-05 Enforcer - Armour; 13 / Size; Enormous / Hard Points; 4 / Strength; 65 [unnatural Strength x2] / Structural Integrity; 15

XV8-02 Iridium - Armour; 17 / Size; Enormous / Hard Points; 3 / Strength; 60 [unnatural Strength x2] / Structural Integrity; 22

XV88 Broadside - Armour; 17 / Size; Enormous / Hard Points; 3 / Strength; 70 [unnatural Strength x2] / Structural Integrity; 25

I've yet to come up with appropriate stats for the Riptide, although they would differ substantially from the presented material in terms of their durability.

Oh, I forgot to add; given their relatively low carry limits, I am considering a rule that gives the suit an effective Unnatural Strength x3 bonus to their SB, but ONLY for factoring their max carry, lift and push rate. That would give most battlesuits a lifting capacity on-par with most armoured Astartes, without also dealing a horrific amount of SB damage in close combat, something I don't feel is indicative of the Tau or their methods of warfare. I've yet to really come down on whether I particularly want the suits to have a massive carry capacity, given their battlesuits are likely highly engineered in terms of balance and weight distribution already, and the ability to carry over a ton while still jetting about the place, while impressive, might be a bit much. Again, I'd appreciate thoughts and feedback on these notes and ideas, if you have any.

I really need to be buy the dlc to understand all this hubbub going on. Though where is the Agility Score of the suit u were talking about?

Awesome stuff

I will simply say "I approve!"

Although, like Nameless2all, I also noticed you forgot to add the Agility part. Since Battlesuites are noted for being (vastly) more dexterous than Imperium-Dreads, but less so than Eldar-Dreads, I'm going to guess an estimate of Agility 45-50.

Also to add my own bit in there using Dan_of_Awesome_Hats post the small power-armour Battlesuits use their pilots Agility and skills for everything; while the larger Battlesuits use Pilot (Personal) for Dodging, Acrobatics, and the like.

Whoops, thanks for pointing out my error on not putting up Agility scores for the suits. The current notes I'm running with has the Agility of the Crisis, Hazard and Enforcer at 40, and the Iridium and Broadside at 30. I'll need to do some play-testing to see whether those characteristics hold up, but I may swap out this idea and instead give battlesuits a Manoeuvrability bonus like other vehicles, likely a +15-20 for more agile suits while heavier ones might be closer to +0 or even suffer a penalty. I'll try out some ideas and let you know.

For the purpose of movement, as vehicles they still have a Tactical and Cruising speed; this represents that the suit doesn't tire in the way a character in armour would, and thus can maintain the sorts of speeds it would be difficult for a non-mechanical being to match over extended periods. Crisis, Hazard and Enforcer battlesuits count as Walkers, and have a Tactical Speed of 6m, with a Cruising Speed of 45km, while Iridium and Broadsides have a Tactical Speed of 5m and a Cruising Speed of 35km

I'm also in agreement with Magnus Black concerning the use of certain skills; Stealth Suits, being powered armour rather than a vehicle, utilize the skills of the wearer as normal, while a battlesuit pilot would use Pilot (Personal) to achieve similar effect. As vehicles, they perform manoeuvres much like other vehicles, as presented in Into the Storm on page 172-173. You may potentially wish to use the manoeuvres for Aerial Combat, found in the same book, in instances where the suit is using a jetpack to fly, although given they are limited in their air time and max air speeds, they may not be appropriate. Pilot (Personal) does cover all aspects of piloting a battlesuit however, even in cases where it is on the ground, rather than requiring Drive (Walker), as the systems that operate the suit are streamlined enough that is doesn't require the pilot to learn two separate systems to operate.

Due to their enhanced motive capabilities, a battlesuit may fire its weapons in a much greater arc than most other vehicles, although its own bulk does limit it in some instances. Weapons mounted on either arm can fire in a 270 degree arc of the relevant side (right for the right arm, left for the left arm), allowing its weapon systems to fire forward, to the side, and behind (although with obvious penalties if the pilot has no means of visually seeing what is behind them). The left arm can't fire to the right in a 90 degree angle, nor can the right arm fire to the left in a 90 degree angle, as the battlesuit's mass prevent the arms positioning in such a way. Any weapon systems mounted on the shoulder or back sections however may fire in a full 360 degree angle.

Thanks for the feedback so far, feel free to make further comments and/or suggestions.

Also the Heavy Railgun barely scratches a Leman Russ's paintjob. Lelwut? What happened to the good ol' MoX stat of 3d10+30I Pen 15?

Look at the new Tau codex. Broadsides do not carry railguns.

They carry heavy rail rifles, which are Str 8 Ap1.

In other words, they barely scratch a Leman Russ's paintjob.

PS. I think making Tau a PC race is a horrible idea (they serve no purpose), but that's neither here or there.

EDIT: Kroot rifles are Str User AP5 in melee in TT.

Yeah, Broadsides went from being AV snipers to being Macross-Missile-Swarm Anti-infantry powerhouses. Because, you know, the Tau needed more anti infantry. The downgrade disappoints me, but c'est la guerre.

It's worth noting that the Krootrifle in melee is equivalent to a chainsword, not a sharp stick. Kroot in melee should be nasty.

Yea the broadsides got a nerf. So what do we have now for anti tank? I know the hammerhead is there, and fusion guns. Surely we must have some other options though.

How does the Cyclic Ion Blaster do vs. armor in this supplement?

Uh. Are you referring to CIB vs Armour in the miniatures tabletop (which is what I am reasonably sure Gamgee was talking about out) or CIB vs Armour in the WH40kRP supplement that should be discussed here?

If the latter, I'm afraid I don't have it, which makes me sad, but I would expect it to be terrible against vehicles but pretty solid against Carapace or Astartes War Plate.

If the former, then I'm pretty sure you take the CIB to eat infantry, not to crack Leman Russ frontal armour- or possibly any vehicle armour at all. Not looking at the codex right now, but isn't it str 3?

No. Nothing I ever reference is in regards to the TT - only the 40k RPG.

In the fluff, isn't the purpose of that weapon to not only eat up infantry/heavy infantry but also to tear up vehicles as well?

Pen 6, 2d10+5 damage, overcharge 5, S/3/6. It'll do the job.

Yeah, Broadsides went from being AV snipers to being Macross-Missile-Swarm Anti-infantry powerhouses. Because, you know, the Tau needed more anti infantry. The downgrade disappoints me, but c'est la guerre.

It's worth noting that the Krootrifle in melee is equivalent to a chainsword, not a sharp stick. Kroot in melee should be nasty.

I'm not sure if it's the TT kroot or the RPG kroot you don't like, but if it's the latter, the ones from Only War can be pretty dangerous in groups.

I'm not sure if I've complained about it already, but man, these Tau are OP as hell - not least because they can outfit the entire party with massively OP Tau weapons. Not that those weren't already incredibly easy to get. Truly, to be human is to suffer. Oh well, c'est la Gue'la.

Uh. Are you referring to CIB vs Armour in the miniatures tabletop (which is what I am reasonably sure Gamgee was talking about out) or CIB vs Armour in the WH40kRP supplement that should be discussed here?

If the latter, I'm afraid I don't have it, which makes me sad, but I would expect it to be terrible against vehicles but pretty solid against Carapace or Astartes War Plate.

If the former, then I'm pretty sure you take the CIB to eat infantry, not to crack Leman Russ frontal armour- or possibly any vehicle armour at all. Not looking at the codex right now, but isn't it str 3?

The CIB in TT is Str7 Ap4 Heavy 3, or S8 Ap4 Heavy 1 Blast Gets Hot, depending on what mode you fire it on.

Anyone ever have any luck running Battlesuits as vehicle/RAW hybrids?

My Tau PC is going to be leveling up soon and I kind of want to build into a battlesuit pilot eventually. Also, thread-necromancy revival party.

Bump.

I will be revisiting the battle suit stats this week and I will be posting them here; I just needed this to be easier to find.

Here is what I have done - more or less sticking to Dan of Hats original template and expanding from there. I made the suits a bit tougher and basically impervious to most small arms fire.

Updated Battlesuit Profiles:

All battlesuits will have an updated profile that makes them beefier than described in the Tau PC guide. They will now be closer to a Vehicle/Armor hybrid and more in sync with the TT/Fluff Battlesuits. Battlesuits require the skill Pilot (Personal) to operate

- XV25 Stealth Suit : This suit is considered powered armor and thus has no structural integrity or manouevreability scores. Aside from the increased strength, the suit relies on the wearer's stats almost entirely. In addition to the stealth field rules provided, the Stealth Suit will also grant +20 to stealth checks and impose a -30 penalty to hit if stationary (essentially Chameleoline Cloak rules)

- XV8 Crisis Suit : (Armor: 15; Structural Integrity: 15; Hard Points: 3; Strength: (11) 50*; Manuevreability: +20; Size: Enormous; Tac. Speed: 6m, Cruising Speed: 45km)

*For purposes of lifting/carrying/hauling, the SB will be treated as x3

- XV8-05 Enforcer Suit : (Armor: 16; Structural Integrity: 20; Hard Points: 4; Strength: (11) 55*; Manuevreability: +20; Size: Enormous; Tac. Speed: 6m, Cruising Speed: 45km)

*For purposes of lifting/carrying/hauling, the SB will be treated as x3

- XV8-02 Iridium Suit : (Armor: 20; Structural Integrity: 28; Hard Points: 3; Strength: (11) 50*; Manuevreability: +15; Size: Enormous; Tac. Speed: 5m, Cruising Speed: 35km)

*For purposes of lifting/carrying/hauling, the SB will be treated as x3

- XV9 Hazard Suit : (Armor: 19; Structural Integrity: 25; Hard Points: 4; Strength: (12) 60*; Manuevreability: +15; Size: Enormous; Tac. Speed: 6m, Cruising Speed: 45km)

*For purposes of lifting/carrying/hauling, the SB will be treated as x3

- XV88 Broadside Suit: (Armor: 20; Structural Integrity: 30; Hard Points: 3; Strength: (12) 60*; Manuevreability: +5; Size: Enormous; Tac. Speed: 5m, Cruising Speed: 35km)

*For purposes of lifting/carrying/hauling, the SB will be treated as x3

Edit : One solution to prevent players from simply Twin-Linking every weapon hard point I was thinking of was to impose a -5 penalty to Maneuverability per twin-linked weapon system . Also, I am using the updated OW/DH2/BC rules if you are wondering about the strength bonus. In this case, Unnatural Strength (6).

Edit 2 : After speaking with Dan of Hats, I realized that I had not taken the extra DoS on strength checks into account when calculating final strength values. All values have been dropped by 10. Furthermore, rather than imposing a penalty to maneuverability, twin-linking will be allowed by will take up 2 hard points.