I've got no problem with the phantom itself, I just don't like that ACD and SPA were released right along with.

"Hey let's introduce the brand new mechanic that has its upsides and downsides, then before anyone can even try to figure it out, lets release 2 modifications that drastically change how that mechanic functions!"

I like that munitions failsafe is coming out WAAAY after missiles and torpedoes were first introduced. It changes an existing mechanic and causes people to re-think preconceived notions about what's useable and what isn't. The phantom is just packaged with 2 mods that are auto-includes. Kinda lame, IMO.

It's the mods that make it fly so well. Without them you have a paper weight.

Don't forget it can't shoot while cloaked

Yeah, the mods are what really make Cloaking work. And really, the Advanced Cloaking Device is what they wanted, to push the meta away from the low PS swarm. Along with Predator, PS is an important consideration now.

I've got no problem with the phantom itself, I just don't like that ACD and SPA were released right along with.

"Hey let's introduce the brand new mechanic that has its upsides and downsides, then before anyone can even try to figure it out, lets release 2 modifications that drastically change how that mechanic functions!"

I like that munitions failsafe is coming out WAAAY after missiles and torpedoes were first introduced. It changes an existing mechanic and causes people to re-think preconceived notions about what's useable and what isn't. The phantom is just packaged with 2 mods that are auto-includes. Kinda lame, IMO.

Have you considered the possibility that SPA and ACD were included and made so good partially to use up the Phantom's mod slot?

I've got no problem with the phantom itself, I just don't like that ACD and SPA were released right along with.

"Hey let's introduce the brand new mechanic that has its upsides and downsides, then before anyone can even try to figure it out, lets release 2 modifications that drastically change how that mechanic functions!"

I like that munitions failsafe is coming out WAAAY after missiles and torpedoes were first introduced. It changes an existing mechanic and causes people to re-think preconceived notions about what's useable and what isn't. The phantom is just packaged with 2 mods that are auto-includes. Kinda lame, IMO.

Frankly, adding them in later implies that there will be later ships with Cloak.

I think the meta will shift to higher PS squads. I believe FFG even mentioned that in one of the preview posts. Low PS builds will struggle dealing with Whisper/Echo because Phantoms will have the upper hand in movement, shots, etc. In order to gain a better advantage, rebels will need Wes, Wedge, Roak to even the playing field. For Imperials, this will lead to less of the traditional 7 ship swarm. We'll start to see more 3-4 ship High PS Imperial builds for sure.

I don't think the Phantom has "broken" the game. I think it's actually helped the game in that you'll need to think outside the box on how to put your build together.

Also, if you think a YT is necessary in order to beat a Phantom, then you have lots to learn young padawan...

I think the meta will shift to higher PS squads. I believe FFG even mentioned that in one of the preview posts. Low PS builds will struggle dealing with Whisper/Echo because Phantoms will have the upper hand in movement, shots, etc. In order to gain a better advantage, rebels will need Wes, Wedge, Roak to even the playing field. For Imperials, this will lead to less of the traditional 7 ship swarm. We'll start to see more 3-4 ship High PS Imperial builds for sure.

I don't think the Phantom has "broken" the game. I think it's actually helped the game in that you'll need to think outside the box on how to put your build together.

Also, if you think a YT is necessary in order to beat a Phantom, then you have lots to learn young padawan...

I think the meta will shift to higher PS squads. I believe FFG even mentioned that in one of the preview posts. Low PS builds will struggle dealing with Whisper/Echo because Phantoms will have the upper hand in movement, shots, etc. In order to gain a better advantage, rebels will need Wes, Wedge, Roak to even the playing field. For Imperials, this will lead to less of the traditional 7 ship swarm. We'll start to see more 3-4 ship High PS Imperial builds for sure.

I don't think the Phantom has "broken" the game. I think it's actually helped the game in that you'll need to think outside the box on how to put your build together.

Also, if you think a YT is necessary in order to beat a Phantom, then you have lots to learn young padawan...

I wouldn't aay it's necessary. But it's relaliable and quick.

"Necessary??? Is it necessary that I drink my own urine? No, but it's sterile and I like the taste."

Yeah, the Falcon is the lazy counter to the Phantom, until play experience starts to set in.

But I'm happy with more Falcons. Or more accurately, Rexlar will be.

Yeah, the Falcon is the lazy counter to the Phantom, until play experience starts to set in.

But I'm happy with more Falcons. Or more accurately, Rexlar will be.

Amen to that, there is also the very likely possibility that everyone sees skilled flyers, who had lots of PTL interceptor experience, using them to good effect, think its a broken ship try to use it and because of poor flying/list building have it fail to do well and then pronounce the Phantom as crap despite the abilities it has in the hand of good pilots

I honestly don't think the game will change all that much. Numbers are numbers, and it is much harder to win with smaller lists. The Z95 is going to help the Rebels put more meaningful 4 ship builds down. The new Imperial ships encourage smaller list play, but how many people are going to trade in their Firesprays for Defenders? Will the Phantom be THAT MUCH better than an Interceptor (which is already not that popular)?

Some of the new weapons and upgrades are designed to help change the current meta. Problem is, many of these new items are one shot weapons (which have never been very popular) and expensive EPTs and Droids.

So to go back to the original question... will the meta change? Yes.... for the Rebels.

I honestly don't think the game will change all that much. Numbers are numbers, and it is much harder to win with smaller lists. The Z95 is going to help the Rebels put more meaningful 4 ship builds down. The new Imperial ships encourage smaller list play, but how many people are going to trade in their Firesprays for Defenders? Will the Phantom be THAT MUCH better than an Interceptor (which is already not that popular)?

Some of the new weapons and upgrades are designed to help change the current meta. Problem is, many of these new items are one shot weapons (which have never been very popular) and expensive EPTs and Droids.

So to go back to the original question... will the meta change? Yes.... for the Rebels.

I honestly don't think the game will change all that much. Numbers are numbers, and it is much harder to win with smaller lists. The Z95 is going to help the Rebels put more meaningful 4 ship builds down. The new Imperial ships encourage smaller list play, but how many people are going to trade in their Firesprays for Defenders? Will the Phantom be THAT MUCH better than an Interceptor (which is already not that popular)?

Some of the new weapons and upgrades are designed to help change the current meta. Problem is, many of these new items are one shot weapons (which have never been very popular) and expensive EPTs and Droids.

So to go back to the original question... will the meta change? Yes.... for the Rebels.

I see a lot of players here say that is their favorite ship. Myself included. If you know how to fly it, is an awesome /deadly ship.

Like many others have mentioned my guess is the creators at ffg are probably trying to move away from the low pilot skill ships that a lot of people are running. By adding ships like the Phantom. This will encourage people to try to get the jump on it by creating listed with a higher ps.

In all honest to say the meta will change for one faction over another is wrong. Both new ships offer something new to each side. Well it change the meta? Sure. But for both sides.

I kind of also see it as a role reversal. You'll see rebel swarms, and smaller imperial builds. Where it use to be the opposite.

You will still see tie swarms, and xxbb builds, but with the new ships, new strategies. What use to work before may not necessarily work now

I think its great. This is how you keep a game like this fresh and keep it from going stale.

The munitions failsafe ability, you may see more missles being used. Why not? 12 points for a z95. 1 point for mf,and 4 point for missles. That's still only 17 points. Couple of them and fly along the side of dutch and garven, can be a lot of fun.

I know for now I'll be picking up another phantom. 1 defender and ewing, and at least 2 zwings.

I honestly don't think the game will change all that much. Numbers are numbers, and it is much harder to win with smaller lists. The Z95 is going to help the Rebels put more meaningful 4 ship builds down. The new Imperial ships encourage smaller list play, but how many people are going to trade in their Firesprays for Defenders? Will the Phantom be THAT MUCH better than an Interceptor (which is already not that popular)?

Some of the new weapons and upgrades are designed to help change the current meta. Problem is, many of these new items are one shot weapons (which have never been very popular) and expensive EPTs and Droids.

So to go back to the original question... will the meta change? Yes.... for the Rebels.

Interceptors not that popular?

I see a lot of players here say that is their favorite ship. Myself included. If you know how to fly it, is an awesome /deadly ship.

Like many others have mentioned my guess is the creators at ffg are probably trying to move away from the low pilot skill ships that a lot of people are running. By adding ships like the Phantom. This will encourage people to try to get the jump on it by creating listed with a higher ps.

In all honest to say the meta will change for one faction over another is wrong. Both new ships offer something new to each side. Well it change the meta? Sure. But for both sides.

I kind of also see it as a role reversal. You'll see rebel swarms, and smaller imperial builds. Where it use to be the opposite.

You will still see tie swarms, and xxbb builds, but with the new ships, new strategies. What use to work before may not necessarily work now

I think its great. This is how you keep a game like this fresh and keep it from going stale.

The munitions failsafe ability, you may see more missles being used. Why not? 12 points for a z95. 1 point for mf,and 4 point for missles. That's still only 17 points. Couple of them and fly along the side of dutch and garven, can be a lot of fun.

I know for now I'll be picking up another phantom. 1 defender and ewing, and at least 2 zwings.

The Interceptor happens to be my favorite Imperial ship as well. I love them and use them often. Last tournament I went to there was only 1 Interceptor in play.

Don't get me wrong, I think things are going to change for both factions too, ultimately. The Phantom will be a popular in friendly build games, just like the Interceptor. I actually see more use for the Defender in Tournament play. Placing one next to Howlrunner could be deadly!

The Z-95 is going to change a lot of lists for the Rebels, and I agree with you that it should expand fleet sizes (as opposed to to a shrinking Imperial fleet w/ wave 4). The real question becomes, after the shiny wears off, do the Imperial players go back to larger ship lists? I think they will.

I do look forward to seeing how those Rookies, Blues, and Academy pilots handle a Jonus like effect on 3 Attack ships. I really think Predator is being dismissed a bit too handily.

Predator is a really good EPT but the limiting factor is that most of the ships that it is good on dont have cheap EPT pilots. The exceptions being R2D6, and with rebel aces you will be able to have both ptl and predator on a green squad and with refit it is only 23 pts.

That said, I really like predator on Red Squad w/ r2d6, Luke, Chewie, and Kath/Boba (as well as green). It could also be quite nice on a ywing with r2d6 and ion for phantom hate.

I cant see it as meta altering tho.

I've got no problem with the phantom itself, I just don't like that ACD and SPA were released right along with.

"Hey let's introduce the brand new mechanic that has its upsides and downsides, then before anyone can even try to figure it out, lets release 2 modifications that drastically change how that mechanic functions!"

I like that munitions failsafe is coming out WAAAY after missiles and torpedoes were first introduced. It changes an existing mechanic and causes people to re-think preconceived notions about what's useable and what isn't. The phantom is just packaged with 2 mods that are auto-includes. Kinda lame, IMO.

Have you considered the possibility that SPA and ACD were included and made so good partially to use up the Phantom's mod slot?

Yes.

Then why even release the Phantom?

It's the mods that make it fly so well. Without them you have a paper weight.

Don't forget it can't shoot while cloaked

That's kinda my point. They seemed to have created a mechanic, decided it was kinda weak, and rather than change the rule they just added other things to make it better. What's the point of the cloak mechanic if you have to release a fix WITH the release of the mechanic?!

Just write a better mechanic, and save mods for later down the road after everyone has figured out how it works, how to play with it, and how to play against it.

I cant see it as meta altering tho.

If your meta keeps on running swarms of Bandits or Academies, just throw a few predators in the fray, see how quickly they move away from PS1's.

4 GSP's with Predator and Hull Upgrades, having their action free for boosts or focus, with built in target locks.

Or, for the other side, 4 RGP's, even nastier with their added attack die.

That's kinda my point. They seemed to have created a mechanic, decided it was kinda weak, and rather than change the rule they just added other things to make it better. What's the point of the cloak mechanic if you have to release a fix WITH the release of the mechanic?!

Just write a better mechanic, and save mods for later down the road after everyone has figured out how it works, how to play with it, and how to play against it.

I imagine it went the other way, they designed the mechanic, decided it was too strong and took some stuff out which they added as modifications to up the cost while keeping the base model affordable.

I think people are too easily dismissing the Phantoms without the mods as unflyable. For 25 points you have a higly mobile blocker that's hard to hit with teeth, for 26 it knows where you're going and for 2 points more it has an automatic evade every turn.

That's kinda my point. They seemed to have created a mechanic, decided it was kinda weak, and rather than change the rule they just added other things to make it better. What's the point of the cloak mechanic if you have to release a fix WITH the release of the mechanic?!

Just write a better mechanic, and save mods for later down the road after everyone has figured out how it works, how to play with it, and how to play against it.

I imagine it went the other way, they designed the mechanic, decided it was too strong and took some stuff out which they added as modifications to up the cost while keeping the base model affordable.

That may very well be. It's the same thing either way. They seemed to have decided what their final draft of the cloak mechanic was too weak, so they released fixes to make it better.

I think people are too easily dismissing the Phantoms without the mods as unflyable. For 25 points you have a higly mobile blocker that's hard to hit with teeth,

That may also be true, but we'll probably never know because the mods are so good. And that's my point. It's like if they released the A-Wing with the Chardaan Refit in the first place. We generally agree now that the A-Wing is overcosted, and the refit is a fix for that. If they released the A-Wing with the refit, everyone would say a naked A-Wing is too expensive, but they certainly wouldn't try it out much to find out. Same thing here.

There are multiple reasons why Advanced Cloaking Device and Stygium Particle Accelerator are mods instead of the rules. They didn't want both effects. They really didn't like the idea of a Stealth Device on a Cloaked Phantom. The Cloaking rules already fill up 2 cards. Adding more effects would've made the Cloaking rules even more complicated.

Dismissing Predator and it's effect on the PS bid is very risky. I've seen what Jonus enhanced missiles can do to a B-wing. Now, apply that to Wedge attack, or other nasty attacks. PTL still has it's place, but I think outside of A-wings and Interceptors, I'm sticking Predator on my elite attackers.

There are multiple reasons why Advanced Cloaking Device and Stygium Particle Accelerator are mods instead of the rules. They didn't want both effects. They really didn't like the idea of a Stealth Device on a Cloaked Phantom. The Cloaking rules already fill up 2 cards. Adding more effects would've made the Cloaking rules even more complicated.

I'm not saying those mods should be rolled into cloaking. I'm saying cloaking should first be introduced without mods. Then see how it plays. Then add mods later to change how it plays if it A) needs a fix or B) you want to change things up. There is no reason at all to release a mechanic if that mechanic never gets played how it's printed.

That may also be true, but we'll probably never know because the mods are so good. And that's my point. It's like if they released the A-Wing with the Chardaan Refit in the first place. We generally agree now that the A-Wing is overcosted, and the refit is a fix for that. If they released the A-Wing with the refit, everyone would say a naked A-Wing is too expensive, but they certainly wouldn't try it out much to find out. Same thing here.

Actually the naked PS1 A-wing is the best A-wing that no one uses. Its a highly mobile blocker that will more than likely need more than 1 shot to dislodge. A-wings are only terribad once you move up the PS ladder with the worst offender being Tycho since you end up paying nearly double the points for what is essentially Night Beast. Chardaan Refit and double EPT is going to do nothing to change that.

I know the TIE Phantom OP comments were a couple of pages ago, but I'm not really that impressed by it.

Anyone remember all the speculation and hurf blurfing about Interceptors before Wave 2 hit? The Interceptor was hyped up to be revolutionary and unbeatable by a few, yet it ended up kind of average due to turret supremacy of the Falcon. I can do well with my Interceptors against some lists but obviously I have issues against Falcons and tons of Y-Wings.

I think a similar thing will happen here, if you take ships which can be flanked by Interceptors now you will still be flanked by Phantoms. If you take ships with turrets then obviously you'll have an easier time. Han Solo is still PS9 which would equal Whisper with VI, which then makes initiative important if you know there is a chance of facing Phantoms.

There are multiple reasons why Advanced Cloaking Device and Stygium Particle Accelerator are mods instead of the rules. They didn't want both effects. They really didn't like the idea of a Stealth Device on a Cloaked Phantom. The Cloaking rules already fill up 2 cards. Adding more effects would've made the Cloaking rules even more complicated.

I'm not saying those mods should be rolled into cloaking. I'm saying cloaking should first be introduced without mods. Then see how it plays. Then add mods later to change how it plays if it A) needs a fix or B) you want to change things up. There is no reason at all to release a mechanic if that mechanic never gets played how it's printed.

Low PS Phantoms are best used with Advanced Sensors and TSygium generator. But they needed the cards to make that work.

At the same time they wanted high PS Phantoms to be able to play the I'm always cloaked game. So they created Advanced CLoaking device.

They are part of the mechanic as created, but they had two different setups they wanted based on the PS of the ship. The Mods are part of cloak, not fixes to cloak.

There are multiple reasons why Advanced Cloaking Device and Stygium Particle Accelerator are mods instead of the rules. They didn't want both effects. They really didn't like the idea of a Stealth Device on a Cloaked Phantom. The Cloaking rules already fill up 2 cards. Adding more effects would've made the Cloaking rules even more complicated.

I'm not saying those mods should be rolled into cloaking. I'm saying cloaking should first be introduced without mods. Then see how it plays. Then add mods later to change how it plays if it A) needs a fix or B) you want to change things up. There is no reason at all to release a mechanic if that mechanic never gets played how it's printed.

Another "problem" with your Idea is unless they release another ship with cloak, there is nothing else to release the Mods with and it hardly makes any sense to release "Phantom Only" mods (I think its the ACD thats Phantom Only) with another nonphantom cloaking ship. Or even doing an "Aces" Phantom so close to the actual Phantom, especially considering the relative obscurity of the ship and its pilots