This thread will be fun to necro in three or four years....

I think some interceptor pilots will move to the phantom.

I think the defender will see use as a companion to a small swarm.

Z-95s won't make it as their own swarm, but they'll fill out and flesh out rebel lists in singles or pairs.

The E will join three or four ship rebel builds, but will be less far less viable in pairs or groups than interceptors.

Bottom line is I don't see any of these ships being spammed but they will find their niche as parts of lists.

I wasnt a big fan of the defender. Though it has a white kturn, all its other turns are red

I wasnt a big fan of the defender. Though it has a white kturn, all its other turns are red

White three.

I think the effect the Phantom and Predator will have on the meta is going to be very nice. Predator is really, really bad for the PS 1 and 2 pilots.

And the uptick of Falcons and Y-wings in order to fight the Phantom will make Rexlar Brath very happy.

I wasnt a big fan of the defender. Though it has a white kturn, all its other turns are red

White three.

I wasnt a big fan of the defender. Though it has a white kturn, all its other turns are red

White three.

My bad, don't know why I was thinking that

Very early on My Defender during Imdaa Alpha wound up with all red turns. Stupid critical hit...

This thread will be fun to necro in three or four years....

I think some interceptor pilots will move to the phantom.

I think the defender will see use as a companion to a small swarm.

Z-95s won't make it as their own swarm, but they'll fill out and flesh out rebel lists in singles or pairs.

The E will join three or four ship rebel builds, but will be less far less viable in pairs or groups than interceptors.

I agree with almost everything here (including the necro part) with a few additions. I can see the Phantom and Defender being paired well with PTL interceptors but in different ways. The Defender gives you a focal point to soak initial range 3 salvos (prevents those ever so nasty r3 1shots) and the Phantom is just like giving a PTL Interceptor LSD, more attacks, more HP, more agility and more maneuverable. So these allow Imperial players to sort of fill that gap between 4 royal guards with PTL and the 3 named aces with PTL+Royal guard title with shields/hulls/stealths

E-wings and Z-95s in my opinion are 2 sides to the same coin. E-Wings can be an upgrade over X-wings/B-wings to let rebels take a more expensive ship to hit 3 ships without too much extra buttering The Z-95 like you said lets Rebels squeeze a 4th ship in with 3 expensive Ys/Bs/Xs/As

I think we're going to see a lot of swarmy rebel builds with 2-4 Z-95s. I think we're going to see a lot of support style action passing builds with Cracken as well.

Etahn will be the most used E-Wing by far, as he can support a good sized fleet.

Etahn +2 points of upgrades +2 Rookie X-Wings +2 Bandits has a lot of potential.(OR cut the upgrades and make the X-wings Blue Squadron b-Wings. Or see what you can do with some A-Wings once the refit hits)

In Epic he'll be even more crazy.

That said, as I'm about to get to, YT's are going to see a lot of use.

On the Imperial side Phantoms and Defenders are going to have less impact in and of themselves o squad building, and a whole lot more on what gets used against them.

Phantoms are very very powerful. As people get used to them they'll start to get almost broken, and then people will learn to play against them and counterbuild them, and they'll become an early game target, as a Phantom left to endgame is nigh on untouchable. Triple Focus Whisper comes to mind as absolutely terrifying. Soontir Fel, eat your heart out. Unfortunatly, the answer to this is Turrets. Hawks offer a veriety of support options that will give phantoms hell. Roark passing Chewie PS 12 will murder Phantoms in their sleep. Jan and Kyle(and Dutch, who might as well be a Hawk) both offer potent boosts to accuracy and can Ionize Phantoms, locking them into cloak. But YT's with Gunner are going to be the bane of Phantoms everywhere. Where Hawks make it a fair fight, YT's slap Phantoms silly. We're going to see a lot of counter-building that leaves Phantoms out to dry.

Fortunatly, Most Imperial builds will be able to take on anti-Phantom lists pretty well. Chewie is good, but he's expensive and once he's focused on he goes down fast and hard. His support with be 1-2 ships with 3 attack or 3-4 with 2. Ties, bounty hunters, and Shuttles will eat him alive.

On the Imperial side of anti-Phantom tech Fettigator and other Firesprays just got better. Kath is a great Phantom counter, as is the Doom Shuttle and Rebel Captive. Krasis isn't as good, but HLC can put on the hurt, and his extra accurate Ions will be amazing.

So basically Rebels get some swarms, but need turrets more, while Imperials will be playing less Tie-Swarm and more Big Ship.

That's my guess.

The Meta will be all over the place at first as players figure out what they like. However nothing shifts a meta like a winning squad! If we see Z-95's in the winning squad than we will see a ton of them in the meta. If it's the Phantom, then the Phantom will sow up in droves....ect.....ect

Proton Bombs are going to see a LOT more play.
A single Direct Hit 1-shots A-wings, Phantoms, E-Wings, and Z-95s.

The ability to trade 1/20th of your fleet's points for a 7/33 chance of 1-shotting a 1/3 of theirs is definitely worth the points, and that's BEFORE remembering that 2 shots will guarantee it, and that a single proton bomb can hit all of their fleet, rather than just one ship out of it...

I very much want to see how 3 x PS3 Defender flies. 3 x BH has been very successful and I want to try and see if the Defender, with higher Agi and smaller base can fill a similar list roll. Variants would be 2 Defenders and a nicely kitted out Omicron. The red turns are not that much of a problem if planned for as the straights are all green and the white K can be used to negate them somewhat.

I think of all the wave 4 ships, the defender probably has the most flexibility in roll. I don't expect to see a large number of named Def's fielded as they cost a packet in squad points and for what you pay, the abilities are meh IMHO.

The Phantom is very cool, but I think people will learn to counter it quite quickly and players are going to need outstanding spacial awareness to fly it.

The Z-95, I don't think will have a huge impact, it's a great filler and can make for a heavy Alpha strike, I am not convinced by the swarm argument as it's lack of 3 Agi is not made up for by 4 HP's and 2 attack with no Howlrunner type synergy will make it a weak proposition. Flanking harassment may be a good roll, but that will be short lived with Aces coming out.

The E-Wing is interesting and IMO, the hardest to judge as It does a lot of things well, but costs the earth. Horn will be a major factor kitted out correctly and supported by some of the lower PS unique X-Wings or B-wings. I see Horn and 2 B-Wings being a very nasty list indeed.

I think you're missing some thoughts on the Z-95. When you look at it's cost the most important thing is that it allows the rebels to have filler. I ran a list with 3 ties at Imdaar Alpha. That 36 points did well over half my damage because people focused on my Shuttle and Firespray. Z-95's do the same. A 7-8 Zwarm will never do well because howlrunner is the swatms strength. But XXXZZZ. That list has a ton of firepower. It'll rip falcons to Shreds. EXXZZ. EZZZZZ. All have potential as well. Rebel filler is going to be an amazing tool in the meta.

I have played six games against a Phantom since Imdaar, and I believe it will be the biggest meta shift. I honestly feel as though FFG didn't playtest it's mechanics enough.

It's an absolute monster. Without turreted shooting, the Phantom is a huge problem, and even then, the automatic cloaking after attacking makes it close to impossible to hit without unlucky defense rolls.

It's almost ALWAYS out of arc, and there is nothing you can do about it because the rest of their ships are punching you in the face at the same time the Phantom is literally flying circles all over the map. IIRC, in the last game, we measured that it can move a total of 7 ship bases in all kinds of crazy directions.

There is no standard firing arc ship in the game that can reasonably follow it and kill it with any success. Even with Turreted weapons, it's cloaked agility is practically bulletproof. That and they move after most current lists, so getting out of your arc is not even remotely a challenge.

I managed to Ion one one time, and that was the only time I killed it. I bounced three red dice off those 4 greens 4 times in one match and 6 in another with no hits. And forget about shooting at range 3 or through an asteroid, lol.

I honestly believe a squad of two Phantoms fully kitted out playing shadow games would kill a lot of good lists if piloted correctly.

Feel free to cuss me, and tell me I'm wrong, I can handle it.

I am, however, getting out in front of this one - the Phantom is too strong. Flame away - I knew it would come as I was writing this.

The only way the Phantom is not completely overwhelming is if the pilot is not skilled at flying it, which means in the hands of some of the amazing pilots lurking around, it will be a total game changer. Think about how annoying it is to play against a really experienced squint pilot who you can just never seem to get a shot on until he makes a glaring error.

Now multiply that by about 10x - and no one is really experienced at flying Phantoms yet.

I have played six games against a Phantom since Imdaar, and I believe it will be the biggest meta shift. I honestly feel as though FFG didn't playtest it's mechanics enough.

It's an absolute monster. Without turreted shooting, the Phantom is a huge problem, and even then, the automatic cloaking after attacking makes it close to impossible to hit without unlucky defense rolls.

It's almost ALWAYS out of arc, and there is nothing you can do about it because the rest of their ships are punching you in the face at the same time the Phantom is literally flying circles all over the map. IIRC, in the last game, we measured that it can move a total of 7 ship bases in all kinds of crazy directions.

There is no standard firing arc ship in the game that can reasonably follow it and kill it with any success. Even with Turreted weapons, it's cloaked agility is practically bulletproof. That and they move after most current lists, so getting out of your arc is not even remotely a challenge.

I managed to Ion one one time, and that was the only time I killed it. I bounced three red dice off those 4 greens 4 times in one match and 6 in another with no hits. And forget about shooting at range 3 or through an asteroid, lol.

I honestly believe a squad of two Phantoms fully kitted out playing shadow games would kill a lot of good lists if piloted correctly.

Feel free to cuss me, and tell me I'm wrong, I can handle it.

I am, however, getting out in front of this one - the Phantom is too strong. Flame away - I knew it would come as I was writing this.

The only way the Phantom is not completely overwhelming is if the pilot is not skilled at flying it, which means in the hands of some of the amazing pilots lurking around, it will be a total game changer. Think about how annoying it is to play against a really experienced squint pilot who you can just never seem to get a shot on until he makes a glaring error.

Now multiply that by about 10x - and no one is really experienced at flying Phantoms yet.

I do agree, I just would like to see some attempts at builds to counter it. Especially against other Phantoms.

Also Rebel builds with Hawks, and some higher PS builds. I mean, Roark should cause the thing immense issues.

I have played six games against a Phantom since Imdaar, and I believe it will be the biggest meta shift. I honestly feel as though FFG didn't playtest it's mechanics enough.

It's an absolute monster. Without turreted shooting, the Phantom is a huge problem, and even then, the automatic cloaking after attacking makes it close to impossible to hit without unlucky defense rolls.

It's almost ALWAYS out of arc, and there is nothing you can do about it because the rest of their ships are punching you in the face at the same time the Phantom is literally flying circles all over the map. IIRC, in the last game, we measured that it can move a total of 7 ship bases in all kinds of crazy directions.

There is no standard firing arc ship in the game that can reasonably follow it and kill it with any success. Even with Turreted weapons, it's cloaked agility is practically bulletproof. That and they move after most current lists, so getting out of your arc is not even remotely a challenge.

I managed to Ion one one time, and that was the only time I killed it. I bounced three red dice off those 4 greens 4 times in one match and 6 in another with no hits. And forget about shooting at range 3 or through an asteroid, lol.

I honestly believe a squad of two Phantoms fully kitted out playing shadow games would kill a lot of good lists if piloted correctly.

Feel free to cuss me, and tell me I'm wrong, I can handle it.

I am, however, getting out in front of this one - the Phantom is too strong. Flame away - I knew it would come as I was writing this.

The only way the Phantom is not completely overwhelming is if the pilot is not skilled at flying it, which means in the hands of some of the amazing pilots lurking around, it will be a total game changer. Think about how annoying it is to play against a really experienced squint pilot who you can just never seem to get a shot on until he makes a glaring error.

Now multiply that by about 10x - and no one is really experienced at flying Phantoms yet.

Hows it do against firesprays, gunner, and Interceptors?

I do agree, I just would like to see some attempts at builds to counter it. Especially against other Phantoms.

Also Rebel builds with Hawks, and some higher PS builds. I mean, Roark should cause the thing immense issues.

I was thinking that I might go back to my Krassis HLC Seismic, BH Gunner, Dark Curse list to see if the back arcs would make a difference. I have a game tonight with the guy who won the Phantom, so we will see. Perhaps running the Firespray's side by side would make him have to really work to stay beside you. The low PS on Bounty Hunter though - I think the Phantom will still be beside you and out of arc if he's good.

I was also thinking that if you were to run a PS chain via Roark or similar effects, you would at least have a better chance of lining him up. But I think it would still require a lot of your attention when there are other ships on the board to clean up after him.

I would say I am an average-moderately skilled squinter. I usually play rebels, however, after watching how badly the Phantom jail-raped my Red Squadron list, I switched to squints and shuttle to try to fight it, and it did get marginally easier with PTL and Barrel Rolls, but no change in the outcome.

The X-Wings had one shot on the Phantom before he was out of arc and behind / beside me. Then I had to deal with the rest of his ships. K-Turning to fight the phantom was not an option.

I think the Z will have the single biggest change, because it will shift Rebel lists from 3-4 ships to 4-6 ships. This will be a bigger impact then 1 or 2 Phantoms.

I think the Defender and E-Wing will see a fair amount of play, but more in the lines of new lists build for them then a huge shift in the Meta.

I think we're going to see a lot of swarmy rebel builds with 2-4 Z-95s. I think we're going to see a lot of support style action passing builds with Cracken as well.

Etahn will be the most used E-Wing by far, as he can support a good sized fleet.

Etahn +2 points of upgrades +2 Rookie X-Wings +2 Bandits has a lot of potential.(OR cut the upgrades and make the X-wings Blue Squadron b-Wings. Or see what you can do with some A-Wings once the refit hits)

In Epic he'll be even more crazy.

That said, as I'm about to get to, YT's are going to see a lot of use.

On the Imperial side Phantoms and Defenders are going to have less impact in and of themselves o squad building, and a whole lot more on what gets used against them.

Phantoms are very very powerful. As people get used to them they'll start to get almost broken, and then people will learn to play against them and counterbuild them, and they'll become an early game target, as a Phantom left to endgame is nigh on untouchable. Triple Focus Whisper comes to mind as absolutely terrifying. Soontir Fel, eat your heart out. Unfortunatly, the answer to this is Turrets. Hawks offer a veriety of support options that will give phantoms hell. Roark passing Chewie PS 12 will murder Phantoms in their sleep. Jan and Kyle(and Dutch, who might as well be a Hawk) both offer potent boosts to accuracy and can Ionize Phantoms, locking them into cloak. But YT's with Gunner are going to be the bane of Phantoms everywhere. Where Hawks make it a fair fight, YT's slap Phantoms silly. We're going to see a lot of counter-building that leaves Phantoms out to dry.

Fortunatly, Most Imperial builds will be able to take on anti-Phantom lists pretty well. Chewie is good, but he's expensive and once he's focused on he goes down fast and hard. His support with be 1-2 ships with 3 attack or 3-4 with 2. Ties, bounty hunters, and Shuttles will eat him alive.

On the Imperial side of anti-Phantom tech Fettigator and other Firesprays just got better. Kath is a great Phantom counter, as is the Doom Shuttle and Rebel Captive. Krasis isn't as good, but HLC can put on the hurt, and his extra accurate Ions will be amazing.

So basically Rebels get some swarms, but need turrets more, while Imperials will be playing less Tie-Swarm and more Big Ship.

That's my guess.

1) stay at range 3 which is easier for the Phantom to do. While at range 3 you have no shoot unless you're going against a Falcon, which brings me to number 2

2) Give them Something else to shoot at. What are you going to shoot at? Tie fighter range 2,or a Phantom at range 3. With Echo weird movements its easy to keep him back without having to get to close.

Your right Turrets will be is weakness, but it won't be easy. If flab properly it will still be hard to hit

Though its probably already been said, I see the meta being more quality over quantity. Perhaps 3-4 Ties and a really good ship like the phantom kitted out for imperials (don't really play rebels often but I do own a lot of their ships). Also with all the stress inducing mechanics coming out there will be times when it will not be advantageous to take a green move, so cards like predator will be fantastic so you have some way to modify your dice without requiring an action.

I think we're going to see a lot of swarmy rebel builds with 2-4 Z-95s. I think we're going to see a lot of support style action passing builds with Cracken as well.

Etahn will be the most used E-Wing by far, as he can support a good sized fleet.

Etahn +2 points of upgrades +2 Rookie X-Wings +2 Bandits has a lot of potential.(OR cut the upgrades and make the X-wings Blue Squadron b-Wings. Or see what you can do with some A-Wings once the refit hits)

In Epic he'll be even more crazy.

That said, as I'm about to get to, YT's are going to see a lot of use.

On the Imperial side Phantoms and Defenders are going to have less impact in and of themselves o squad building, and a whole lot more on what gets used against them.

Phantoms are very very powerful. As people get used to them they'll start to get almost broken, and then people will learn to play against them and counterbuild them, and they'll become an early game target, as a Phantom left to endgame is nigh on untouchable. Triple Focus Whisper comes to mind as absolutely terrifying. Soontir Fel, eat your heart out. Unfortunatly, the answer to this is Turrets. Hawks offer a veriety of support options that will give phantoms hell. Roark passing Chewie PS 12 will murder Phantoms in their sleep. Jan and Kyle(and Dutch, who might as well be a Hawk) both offer potent boosts to accuracy and can Ionize Phantoms, locking them into cloak. But YT's with Gunner are going to be the bane of Phantoms everywhere. Where Hawks make it a fair fight, YT's slap Phantoms silly. We're going to see a lot of counter-building that leaves Phantoms out to dry.

Fortunatly, Most Imperial builds will be able to take on anti-Phantom lists pretty well. Chewie is good, but he's expensive and once he's focused on he goes down fast and hard. His support with be 1-2 ships with 3 attack or 3-4 with 2. Ties, bounty hunters, and Shuttles will eat him alive.

On the Imperial side of anti-Phantom tech Fettigator and other Firesprays just got better. Kath is a great Phantom counter, as is the Doom Shuttle and Rebel Captive. Krasis isn't as good, but HLC can put on the hurt, and his extra accurate Ions will be amazing.

So basically Rebels get some swarms, but need turrets more, while Imperials will be playing less Tie-Swarm and more Big Ship.

That's my guess.

Ya but Turrets can be easily countered.

1) stay at range 3 which is easier for the Phantom to do. While at range 3 you have no shoot unless you're going against a Falcon, which brings me to number 2

2) Give them Something else to shoot at. What are you going to shoot at? Tie fighter range 2,or a Panton at range 3. It's sm with Echo writes movements is easy to keep him back without having to get to close.

Your right Turrets will be is weakness, but it won't be easy. If flab properly it will still be hard to hit

Yes Hawks and Y-wing only have range two turrets. But range 2 is a big space. A phantom is too fragile to slip up with. One mistake and it's dead.

I am fairly worried about this meta.

Echo, specifically is insane, it is near impossible to hit if you are moving before it and firing after it. And i dont think it will be too hard to use.

I fear that any squad without a means of dealing with echo and the other phantoms is in trouble.

I dont really like the idea of being forced to use a turret ship, or having falcons in 50% of all squads in a tournament.

I think we're going to see a lot of swarmy rebel builds with 2-4 Z-95s. I think we're going to see a lot of support style action passing builds with Cracken as well.

Etahn will be the most used E-Wing by far, as he can support a good sized fleet.

Etahn +2 points of upgrades +2 Rookie X-Wings +2 Bandits has a lot of potential.(OR cut the upgrades and make the X-wings Blue Squadron b-Wings. Or see what you can do with some A-Wings once the refit hits)

In Epic he'll be even more crazy.

That said, as I'm about to get to, YT's are going to see a lot of use.

On the Imperial side Phantoms and Defenders are going to have less impact in and of themselves o squad building, and a whole lot more on what gets used against them.

Phantoms are very very powerful. As people get used to them they'll start to get almost broken, and then people will learn to play against them and counterbuild them, and they'll become an early game target, as a Phantom left to endgame is nigh on untouchable. Triple Focus Whisper comes to mind as absolutely terrifying. Soontir Fel, eat your heart out. Unfortunatly, the answer to this is Turrets. Hawks offer a veriety of support options that will give phantoms hell. Roark passing Chewie PS 12 will murder Phantoms in their sleep. Jan and Kyle(and Dutch, who might as well be a Hawk) both offer potent boosts to accuracy and can Ionize Phantoms, locking them into cloak. But YT's with Gunner are going to be the bane of Phantoms everywhere. Where Hawks make it a fair fight, YT's slap Phantoms silly. We're going to see a lot of counter-building that leaves Phantoms out to dry.

Fortunatly, Most Imperial builds will be able to take on anti-Phantom lists pretty well. Chewie is good, but he's expensive and once he's focused on he goes down fast and hard. His support with be 1-2 ships with 3 attack or 3-4 with 2. Ties, bounty hunters, and Shuttles will eat him alive.

On the Imperial side of anti-Phantom tech Fettigator and other Firesprays just got better. Kath is a great Phantom counter, as is the Doom Shuttle and Rebel Captive. Krasis isn't as good, but HLC can put on the hurt, and his extra accurate Ions will be amazing.

So basically Rebels get some swarms, but need turrets more, while Imperials will be playing less Tie-Swarm and more Big Ship.

That's my guess.

Ya but Turrets can be easily countered.

1) stay at range 3 which is easier for the Phantom to do. While at range 3 you have no shoot unless you're going against a Falcon, which brings me to number 2

2) Give them Something else to shoot at. What are you going to shoot at? Tie fighter range 2,or a Panton at range 3. It's sm with Echo writes movements is easy to keep him back without having to get to close.

Your right Turrets will be is weakness, but it won't be easy. If flab properly it will still be hard to hit

That's assuming the Falcon player is awful. It covers as much ground as a Phantom boost on a 1 forward. Staying at range 3 isn't easy against a Falcon. The constantly moving nature of the game will make it alk but impossible once people learn how Phantom's move. Believe it or not flying the Phantom takes less skill and knowledge than flying against it. Were I facing a YT with a Phantom my goal would be to collide with the YT at every opportunity, unless it had Anti pursuit lasers.

Yes Hawks and Y-wing only have range two turrets. But range 2 is a big space. A phantom is too fragile to slip up with. One mistake and it's dead.

I think the Falcon is probably the best answer to a Phantom at the moment. You will have to chase him down aggressively and make him play defense instead of offense.

This of course takes your falcon out of whatever strategy you were hoping to run, but it may be effective none-the-less.

I did have trouble landing hits on one with the Falcon, however, without a few more games it's hard to say if it was just unlucky red dice. My initial impressions, however, were that my red dice were not cold. It's just hard to hit someone slinging 4 greens.

I am fairly worried about this meta.

Echo, specifically is insane, it is near impossible to hit if you are moving before it and firing after it. And i dont think it will be too hard to use.

I fear that any squad without a means of dealing with echo and the other phantoms is in trouble.

I dont really like the idea of being forced to use a turret ship, or having falcons in 50% of all squads in a tournament.

^^^ This times 100.

The Phantom is powerful enough to warrant specifically running dual falcon lists or at least, falcon heavy lists in general across the roster of a tournament.

Echo and a few TIE's literally laid waste to a 4 X-Wing list that usually does exceptionally well. 5 dice range 1 on an X-Wing is like an inflated beach ball into a woodchiper.

You cannot get a shot on Echo with an X-Wing unless the Phantom pilot REALLY REALLY screws up.

If you don't kill Echo before the "joust" would normally take place, it's not pretty.

I really do believe the Phantom was not tested thoroughly enough before release. It's movement on the board is unprecedented. I, too, do not want to be forced into running a Falcon just in case some dude in the tournament has a pair of Phantoms.

There are other ways, ion cannon turrets on hwks and y-wings could work, coupled with something that induces stress such as flechette torps and that would be pretty hard on phantoms. Another way might be to force it to decloak somewhere that the pilot doesn't really want to, perhaps denying a shot. Granted all this is easier said and done and will take practice but I think thats the point.

Honestly, the Phantom, even Echo, just requires some experience in flying against them. It is going to require a different sort of formation flying than what you would normally do against them. Still, I will enjoy seeing the high PS Interceptors vs Phantoms.

There are other ways, ion cannon turrets on hwks and y-wings could work, coupled with something that induces stress such as flechette torps and that would be pretty hard on phantoms. Another way might be to force it to decloak somewhere that the pilot doesn't really want to, perhaps denying a shot. Granted all this is easier said and done and will take practice but I think thats the point.

Flechettes should be death to a Phantom if you can catch it while it's stressed. Landing them is another story.

My current plan is to play a Phantom list exclusively for a few weeks against myself to try to better anticipate their movements. Hopefully I can develop a working plan of action before they tidal wave over the meta around here.