A player could get upset about this, especially if those setback dice where the ones that kept the PCs from successfully pulling off their ambush.

I'm confused. What setback dice did Krieger22 mention?

If the NPCs failed to spot them, then the PCs should be free to successfully pull off their action. Instead they are screwed because the NPCs who don't notice them still can prepare for an ambush they don't know about.

As he said, those NPCs didn't know exactly what was going on, but they knew something was wrong.

I take it that you've never seen the movies where the characters on screen hear that all the animals have stopped making noises and it is suddenly way too quiet? Should these people completely ignore this sign and blithely stride ahead, comfortable in the knowledge that nothing bad could ever possibly happen to them, even if it suddenly is way too quiet?

To me, that breaks the narrative and would kill the immersion if I were a player. Is it really game breaking to allow the PCs a round of actions? Actions that they took pains to setup and prepare for? To me, that is more wargamey than allowing the PCs to act first or a surprise round.

What breaks the narrative is having the NPCs stand there completely unprepared and doing absolutely nothing to defend themselves, for one or more minutes straight -- all the while they are getting absolutely destroyed by hidden opponents which they couldn't previously see but could easily have inferred from their sudden feeling that something was wrong, even if they didn't know exactly what it was.

I'll say it again -- no surprise round. I'll say it again -- No Surprise Round. I'll say it again -- NO SURPRISE ROUND. I'll say it again -- NO FLIPPING SURPRISE ROUND. PERIOD.

Everything you could possibly achieve with a "surprise round" can be handled better and in a more narrative way through the use of setback and bonus dice for the respective PCs and NPCs. If you can't wrap your brain around that and you feel that you just gotta have that extra special hit that you can only possibly get from having a surprise round, then you need to go back and seriously re-think your approach to this game.

The NPCs in his scenario took cover (Ranged Defense 1) and used defensive talents (possibly setback dice to PCs). My inference.

Plus the whole point of an ambush is that you catch your opponents unaware. I would allow the NPCs Perception or Vigilance vs. the PCs stealth. If they fail then they fail. To me, that pre-roll to be aware of the ambush, trumps an initiative roll. I just can't see having one side fail their "awareness" checks and then win initiative. That doesn't make any sense to me. To me their pre-initiative rolls ARE their chance to gain any sort of bad feeling or sense of doom going into a situation. If they fail then they are screwed. That is the point of an ambush.

Having the NPCs (or even PCs for that matter) stand there unprepared and doing nothing is sort of the point. Man, if I was a player and I had rolled all successes, maybe some triumphs in setting up my ambush against some enemies, and they failed to spot (Perception) or be aware of (Vigilance) my trap, but my GM said roll initiative and I got the last slot and they all took defensive positions resulting in setback dice to my combat checks, setback dice I purposefully set up specifically to avoid, I sure would be pissed. (sorry for the run-on sentence)

You can say "no surprise round" all you want. It's not going to stop me from using it in my games because it has thus far not broken the game for our group nor has it broken our immersion. We've only used it once. We've only used it once because most times the cool vs. vigilance is enough to handle most scenarios. But to make a blanket statement like, "no surprise round ever" seems short sighted to me and I would never utter those words. The thing I love about this game is it is adaptable to whatever you want it to do. That is a MASSIVE boon to GMs and gives them the flexibility to run their games how they want, RAW be damned.

Also, we have a lot of fun in our games and the action has been fast and exciting. So, apparently we are doing something right so there is not need for us to "re-think our approach to this game". But thanks for the suggestion!

*EDIT* Just an fyi, the way I did handle the surprise round was a couple of the PCs just got a round of actions. Did the round last a full minute in-game? Not really. After that we just rolled initiative normally.

I fall into the "bonus on initiative roll" camp, but would add negative dice to the enemy rather than positive to the players.

Make the opponents' Vigilance vs. Stealth roll to spot the party their initiative roll. It doesn't make sense to have them roll to spot the ambush and then do initiative, when a successful roll can easily become their turn order. Turn any threat or despair into bonus maneuvers/boost dice/upgrades for the PCs.

The PCs roll Cool, as normal.

I don't see the need for the GM to decide at all. With how I handle these kind of things (as I've described in my examples earlier in this thread) the roll prior to the the Initiative roll gives you everything you need already. Whatever Skill you choose (Cool, Stealth, Survival, Streetwise, or whatever else may fit) you make the roll and spend whatever Advantages and Triumphs, or Threats and Despairs you generate as you like. Add Boosts to your own Initiative roll or Setbacks to their's is up to the PCs.

I don't see us disagreeing here.

Yeah, another issue is that there isn't an inherent penalty to the blanket assertion, "Well, you were 'surprised', so you can only roll Vigilance. But your ambusher gets to roll his Cool."

Because the ambushee may have a much higher Vigilance over Cool. And/or the ambusher doesn't happen to have a high Cool at all. How does that make sense at all under the assertion above? The ambush won't go well for the poor fool who tried (and theoretically succeeded) in setting the ambush up in the first place. Where's the advantage in that case (a case not unlikely at all, I'd go so far as to say)?

I don't see us disagreeing here.

I didn't think we were, I was just elaborating on your point. I think whenever possible give the Player's the choice as to taking the Boost or giving the Setback. Mechanically I think taking the Boost is slightly more advantageous but mostly some players may feel better doing one over the other.

Because the ambushee may have a much higher Vigilance over Cool. And/or the ambusher doesn't happen to have a high Cool at all. How does that make sense at all under the assertion above? The ambush won't go well for the poor fool who tried (and theoretically succeeded) in setting the ambush up in the first place. Where's the advantage in that case (a case not unlikely at all, I'd go so far as to say)?

If you're an ignorant moron who tries to set up an ambush for Musashi Miyamoto, and somehow manage to create a situation where Musashi can't see you and doesn't know exactly how your ambush is going to go down, then no one else in the Universe should be surprised if they see Musashi react defensively and draw his sword when he senses that something is wrong but doesn't know exactly what it is.

Then with his light-speed reflexes, he manages to kill you before you even get to finish your leap+swing at him, well -- you were the ignorant moron who tried to ambush Musashi.

I've got a question for all the "no surprise" people.

Consider Han and Greedo sitting at the table in the cantina. Han has passed a Deception roll to draw his blaster. Now, Han's player says, "I blast him". Would you call for structured gameplay and make Han's player roll for initiative?

I am at the very opposite of Rules Lawyer, whatever that is... for various reasons. But none of them are that I am not uninterested in the rules. So keep in mind that I haven't read them. I learn them by playing. From reading - mostly this forum - I've learned that not everyone plays the rules exactly the same. That's my usual disclaimer when I try talking rules and rulings... which I'm about to do.

I would have asked Han's player, in that specific instance, to roll his initiative. As people have suggested, I would give him boost dice. I'm not saying that's THE way it needs to be played. I would require the roll because:

1. Greedo had a blaster trained on Han. From the words and tone of their conversation, I'm guessing that Greedo wasn't holding that blaster to show off a new toy for Han so...

2. Greedo was ready for, if nor intending to cause, trouble. In fact...

3. He had just made it clear he had every intention of shooting Han and I am betting that...

4. The only thing that stopped Greedo from doing it in the first place was Han's conversation... and walking into such a silly verbal trap that Gredo couldn't resist taking the bait. I mean, srsly... who says, "Over my dead body." to a guy holding a gun on you and clearly looking to collect a bounty??? And how hard would it be not to say "That's the idea." if dumbo was ailly enough to say it????

And, you have to admit it was a risky move. I think that alone is enough but, with everything else I listed in addition to the risky factor, it deserved the drama of the roll. If it "just works because", even after the set up was established, the drama seems to be sucked right out of that whole scene. Not to mention that I think you'd be opening the door to that sort of thing becoming common and it was so darn cool because it wasn't.

The NPCs in his scenario took cover (Ranged Defense 1) and used defensive talents (possibly setback dice to PCs). My inference.

Plus the whole point of an ambush is that you catch your opponents unaware. I would allow the NPCs Perception or Vigilance vs. the PCs stealth. If they fail then they fail. To me, that pre-roll to be aware of the ambush, trumps an initiative roll. I just can't see having one side fail their "awareness" checks and then win initiative. That doesn't make any sense to me. To me their pre-initiative rolls ARE their chance to gain any sort of bad feeling or sense of doom going into a situation. If they fail then they are screwed. That is the point of an ambush.

Having the NPCs (or even PCs for that matter) stand there unprepared and doing nothing is sort of the point. Man, if I was a player and I had rolled all successes, maybe some triumphs in setting up my ambush against some enemies, and they failed to spot (Perception) or be aware of (Vigilance) my trap, but my GM said roll initiative and I got the last slot and they all took defensive positions resulting in setback dice to my combat checks, setback dice I purposefully set up specifically to avoid, I sure would be pissed. (sorry for the run-on sentence)

You can say "no surprise round" all you want. It's not going to stop me from using it in my games because it has thus far not broken the game for our group nor has it broken our immersion. We've only used it once. We've only used it once because most times the cool vs. vigilance is enough to handle most scenarios. But to make a blanket statement like, "no surprise round ever" seems short sighted to me and I would never utter those words. The thing I love about this game is it is adaptable to whatever you want it to do. That is a MASSIVE boon to GMs and gives them the flexibility to run their games how they want, RAW be damned.

Also, we have a lot of fun in our games and the action has been fast and exciting. So, apparently we are doing something right so there is not need for us to "re-think our approach to this game". But thanks for the suggestion!

*EDIT* Just an fyi, the way I did handle the surprise round was a couple of the PCs just got a round of actions. Did the round last a full minute in-game? Not really. After that we just rolled initiative normally.

I understand your point however I think you have actually done your players a disfavor by not giving them a bonus to Initiative. In the long run it's that bonus that is most advantageous. But more than that I think you may have missed some of the points I was making about an ambush. "Plus the whole point of an ambush is that you catch your opponents unaware". This is actually the least most important thing about an ambush, it's important for sure but position, readiness, and control of the start of the engagement are more valuable than surprise. Once surprise is used it's the rest of those factors that win the battle. Be that as it may your example doesn't really fit our examples either or the RAW and so part of your argument is a straw man and is probably keeping you from realizing you can achieve the same or a similar effect without breaking the RAW. Here's what I mean:

Having the NPCs (or even PCs for that matter) stand there unprepared and doing nothing is sort of the point. Man, if I was a player and I had rolled all successes, maybe some triumphs in setting up my ambush against some enemies, and they failed to spot (Perception) or be aware of (Vigilance) my trap, but my GM said roll initiative and I got the last slot and they all took defensive positions resulting in setback dice to my combat checks, setback dice I purposefully set up specifically to avoid, I sure would be pissed. (sorry for the run-on sentence)

First, if you roll a Triumph in the RAW it states "a Triumph result indicates an unexpected boon or significantly beneficial effect related to the task" which is easily interpreted as allowing not only I described earlier (gaining the advantageous position etc.) but allowing the PCs to have the Initiative without even rolling for it. In this case the PCs can automatically go first on the first round which is essentially the same as surprise and even maintain the initiative throughout the battle. So I agree if my GM pulled what you described I'd be pissed too. However rolling a Triumph is not the same as just rolling a Success.

As I tried to explain in my earlier posts it's the simple Success that we disagree on. What I see you doing is giving a simple Success too much weight by ignoring the RAW. In my example a simple Success gives the PCs the advantage of position etc., a Success with enough Advantages to generate Boost dice gives the PCs the advantage of position etc. plus a significant chance of winning the Initiative, and lastly with a Success and a Triumph you can within the RAW just give the Initiative to the PCs on top of their advantageous position etc. Three levels of success that better describe the outcome of an ambush than a simple D&D like binary result.

The Second point is in regards to "they failed to spot (Perception) or be aware of (Vigilance) my trap". In an opposed roll situation like this I believe the Player's should roll not the GM. It is statistically more to their advantage but more importantly it makes them the active participant and they get to savor or lament the results of their roll rather than your roll. It's a little thing.

Lastly "The thing I love about this game is it is adaptable to whatever you want it to do. That is a MASSIVE boon to GMs and gives them the flexibility to run their games how they want, RAW be damned." Well the point I'm trying to make is you don't need to **** the RAW. As for breaking the game, no single ignoring of the RAW generally "breaks" the game. Instead it's a lot of singular instances of ignoring of the RAW that eventually breaks a game. So I find that it's best to only ignore or overrule the RAW when it's absolutely necessary because no other option within the RAW exists.

I tend to frown on disagreeing with a GM. I'd politely suggest to roll with it. If that player still doesn't see reason, I'd flip a Dark Side Token and say the PCs suddenly realize that their work was noticed and the NPCs have setup a counter trap...

I usually grant boost die or various advantages.

If you're an ignorant moron who tries to set up an ambush for Musashi Miyamoto, and somehow manage to create a situation where Musashi can't see you and doesn't know exactly how your ambush is going to go down, then no one else in the Universe should be surprised if they see Musashi react defensively and draw his sword when he senses that something is wrong but doesn't know exactly what it is.

Then with his light-speed reflexes, he manages to kill you before you even get to finish your leap+swing at him, well -- you were the ignorant moron who tried to ambush Musashi.

I like to give the benefit of the doubt, that anyone who goes to the trouble of posting ridiculous hyperbole understands they serve zero purpose and do nothing to further the discussion. Please come back with a realistic response to my realistic situation if you expect any kind of debate worth having.

Is there a polite way to ask someone to stop helping?

Anyway, I see the whole Cool vs. Vigilance as a bonus to the system. Yes, you might have a higher Vigilance than Cool. This tells me you aren't an overtly aggressive person. Like say a Jedi. Jedi get bonus blue dice to Vigilance. I'm hoping that Sith get bonus blue dice to Cool.

Maybe your Jedi was busy meditating/levitating rather than paying attention during your ambush. Maybe he refuses to take the first swing but he's happy to defend his friends once the fighting starts. However, you choose to describe things, the character with a high Vigilance and low Cool is not the one to rush into the fight. It makes sense that he sucks at ambushes.

I really wish that initiative was always based on Vigilance with characters that are prepared (like the guys setting an ambush) getting upgrades on the Vigilance check equal to their ranks in Cool.

This would mean that it's always an advantage to be prepared rather than the current system where someone with Vigilance > Cool seems to prefer walking into things unprepared.

Over in the thread "FFG Developer Answered Questions" at <http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/>, they actually address this issue. According to them, there is no surprise round.

I can't find anything about surprise in that thread.

I guess this is the core issue. I see EotE's initiative system as a wargamey mechanic. I was really surprised when I first read the rules since they were so similar to 3e/4e's and not at all what I'm used to in other narrative games.

EDIT: a surprise round is unwarranted in this system because the dice already take care of that for you. The game isn't designed for it, and it eschews the narrative in favor wargamey mechanics IMO. No bueno.

I guess this is the core issue. I see EotE's initiative system as a wargamey mechanic. I was really surprised when I first read the rules since they were so similar to 3e/4e's and not at all what I'm used to in other narrative games.

FFG's Star Wars RPGs are a hybrid between traditional RPGs and fully narrative RPGs. They really don't fall neatly into one or another, and rules arguments on these forums often arise when one direction or the other is taken to an extreme.

Is there a polite way to ask someone to stop helping?.

I actually have a lot of experience with that! My favorites are:

"I think I've got this but thank you."

"I need to learn this on my own but thank you."

"I'd really like to finish this on my own but thank you."

"I really appreciate your helpfulness but I have to be able to do this myself."

And always add, "If I do get into trouble, I'm glad you'll be here to help."

Is there a polite way to ask someone to stop helping?

Anyway, I see the whole Cool vs. Vigilance as a bonus to the system. Yes, you might have a higher Vigilance than Cool. This tells me you aren't an overtly aggressive person. Like say a Jedi. Jedi get bonus blue dice to Vigilance. I'm hoping that Sith get bonus blue dice to Cool.

Why would a Sith get a bonus in Cool? That doesn't track as I wouldn't describe them as being emotionally centered. Mechanically Jedi and Sith are the same in RAW except for the flip regarding black pips instead of white used on force die.

I guess not everyone wants to be a boy scout...

I really wish that initiative was always based on Vigilance with characters that are prepared (like the guys setting an ambush) getting upgrades on the Vigilance check equal to their ranks in Cool.

As player, I kind of wish this, too. But then maybe I'm being too wargamey.

This would mean that it's always an advantage to be prepared rather than the current system where someone with Vigilance > Cool seems to prefer walking into things unprepared.

The irony is that I know people who are exactly this way. You throw them into something unprepared, and they do fine. You give them time to prep, and they get all jittery and nervous.

Ultimately, the fact that I actually know people who are exactly this way is why I don't have a problem with the game choosing to mirror this fact in their mechanics.

Regardless of the fact that it puts my Wookiee at a disadvantage, that just means I need to buy his Cool skill up a few ranks.

Does it really matter whether it's Vigilance or Cool? Unless your whole group is great at Vigilance but sucks at Cool, it shouldn't really become an issue seeing as how anyone can act in any initiative slot on their side.

I am at the very opposite of Rules Lawyer, whatever that is...

A rules hippy?

I am at the very opposite of Rules Lawyer, whatever that is...

A rules hippy?

The person who's only there for the free food?

Sith should get a bonus to Cool because: they like to set ambushes, they are in touch with their emotions and have no trouble being aggressive, they are patient as they set things up for their inevitable victory, and most importantly – they look cool.

Not a rules hippy!! And it's my house so the food's kinda free, anyway!

I've had the rules read to me and demonstrated but I haven't poured over them myself the way I'd like so I try to stay out of rules discussions since I can't quote rules or give page references the way I see people do.

This is from the Beginner Game's Example of Play:

I think that it reinforces the idea that it is a suggestion, and an example of a player creatively interpreting the situation.

"Surprise gives you a boost die" is a good idea, but if it becomes a standard, then it can lead to staleness and lack of creativity. Keeping the situation open to "narrative" interpretation makes the game more fun for all, IMHO.

Situation 1: surprise grants a Boost die to all attacks or initiative checks

Situation 2: surprise imposes setback dice on enemy attacks, or even initiative checks

Situation 3: surprise grants favorable initiave order placement, foregoing the usual roll

Situation 4: surprise grants an automatic advantage to any checks against surprised enemies

Situation 5: surprise means no enemy defense ratings for the first round

Situation 6: surprise lets you downgrade the difficulty of attacks (so the Adversary talent is less of an issue)

Situation 7: surprise grants you an extra free maneuver (not to exceed 2 maneuvers per turn)

Situation 8: surprise lets you raise your wound or strain threshold by +1 or +2 for the encounter.

And so on.

Also the PCs roll cool. that bad guys roll vigilance.