I guess it's a matter of how lethal you want your game to be. If I were playing Cyberpunk or GURPS or 40k or a horror game I'd expect ambushes to be the most day-ruiningest thing ever. In Star Wars (even scummy EotE), not so much.

Rounds can be up to a minute long yeah? I'd say the ambushers have a really good chance of getting the first shot in, but not a whole round of attacks without opportunity for retaliation/retreat.

Perhaps have the ambushers roll Stealth vs. Vigilance. Those who pass automatically get an initiative slot before the ambushees. Those who fail roll initiative as normal. (No slot-trades in the first round.)

I think granting a boost die to the characters initiative seems fair for indicating a form of surprise round.

If one of the characters is a force sensitive exile with the sense power active,then that character would get 2 boost dice to

initiative.

This is one approach to handling surprise rounds,but i do not use surprise rounds due to the way initiative

is handled in EotE.

I guess it's a matter of how lethal you want your game to be. If I were playing Cyberpunk or GURPS or 40k or a horror game I'd expect ambushes to be the most day-ruiningest thing ever. In Star Wars (even scummy EotE), not so much.

Rounds can be up to a minute long yeah? I'd say the ambushers have a really good chance of getting the first shot in, but not a whole round of attacks without opportunity for retaliation/retreat.

Perhaps have the ambushers roll Stealth vs. Vigilance. Those who pass automatically get an initiative slot before the ambushees. Those who fail roll initiative as normal. (No slot-trades in the first round.)

Theres nothing wrong with these ideas, giving a Boost die, but theres no need for it to automatic. Roll the Skill vs Skill to determine if the ambush worked and how well. If the result is a simple Success or Failure then the situation doesn't change enough to merit a Boost or Setback (however a Success does give the PCs the option to choose where the battle takes place, and thats going to be an advantage. A Failure and the GM could choose a place where the PCs are at a disadvantage). If the roll generates enough Advantages or Threats then apply Boosts and Setbacks exactly as you normally would. Simple and totally within the RAW, no need to make a new rule or arbitrarily grant anything.

I'm not a EotE fan boy but the more I play the more I see just how broad and encompassing the RAW is without any modification. You can account for and measure the level of success or failure of just about any type of situation or idea by choosing the appropriate Skill(s) and whether it's a strait or opposed roll and see the result based on what that roll generates. It doesn't make it roll-playing it just determines how effective your role-playing is in a mechanical sense.

Most of the time when I see a post on a House Rule or a question on how to do something (like create an ambush) there is already a way to accomplish it in the RAW, it's just not specifically stated and the result isn't binary (Success or Fail giving a specific effect, but rather levels of Success and Failure). Once you really get the system you have the tools to rule on just about anything.

If the bad guys failed their vigilance checks to spot the ambush, then if they do roll init and go first, they would have to roll to spot the ambushers instead of shooting. Seems easier to me to just let the players go first.

If the bad guys failed their vigilance checks to spot the ambush, then if they do roll init and go first, they would have to roll to spot the ambushers instead of shooting. Seems easier to me to just let the players go first.

Two things

First, when in doubt it should be the Player's who roll and their results used to determine success or failure not the NPCs.

Second, consider this: With a simple Success (no Advantages or Triumphs) the PCs still have the advantage of choosing where the battle takes place even if they don't necessarily get the drop on their opponents (Boost dice/winning the Initiative), a place where they have better access to cover or a choke point or whatever. A Failure, even without any Setback dice, and the battle can/should take place at a point not of their choosing, maybe somewhere with less cover, more easily flanked, or whatever.

Just giving a Boost or Setback may be easier but it doesn't tell a story and the whole point of a narrative system like this is to tell a story.

You need to Force Choke your player for his disturbing lack of faith.

After that get them to consider and think rather than get pissed off. A round is a minute long. Anyone who can stand there with their thumb up their posterior for a minute doesn't deserve the name opponent. Even the title minion is too nice for that loser.

Anyone who can think can tell you that no plan survives first contact with the enemy. Just because you are ready to surprise your foes doesn't mean you will. If you ever laid in wait for someone you know that things don't go smooth. Sometime you are cleaning your rile when your foe walks into your cunning trap. Other times your sister triggers the can of pee you left for the neighborhood bully over a door.

Stuff happens. That's why we have dice. That way you can get mad at the dice, and they can ignore you.

I've got a question for all the "no surprise" people.

Consider Han and Greedo sitting at the table in the cantina. Han has passed a Deception roll to draw his blaster. Now, Han's player says, "I blast him". Would you call for structured gameplay and make Han's player roll for initiative?

I wouldn't bother. Even if Greedo wins, he still not going to do anything but blather on and on. So, I'd make Han's player roll to hit and only if Greedo somehow survives would I use structured combat and initiative. If Han vaporizes Greedo, the scene is over and Han get to coolly walk out of the bar. All using regular narrative gameplay.

If I were to have rolled initiative before I resolved Han's shot, then the order would be either PC, NPC or NPC, PC. In either case, Greedo would automatically get the next shot (either the second action of the first round or the first action of the second round), meaning Han's Rapid Reaction talent would be useless. Waiting until after the shot means that it's possible for Han to get off a second shot after his first shot failed to kill Greedo.

Now consider the original situation, but replace the trap with a PC sniper. The sniper is half a mile away in a prepared camouflaged position and the enemy has already failed a Perception check to spot him. He's got a clear shot and decides to take it. Here, I would just use the Ranged check to see if he hit. In effect, a "surprise round".

At this point, I still wouldn't automatically "call for initiative." Instead, I would resolve the situation based entirely on what the player intended. If the player stated that he was going to continue shooting, we'd move to structured gameplay and initiative would be rolled. However, if the player had stated that he was going to fire one shot and then leave his position (possibly to move to another), I would just make him take a normal Stealth check (opposed by the enemy's Perception). If the Stealth roll fails, I could spend any Threats to allow the enemy to get a hasty shot off before the PC leaves. Otherwise the PC escapes. All this while still staying in narrative mode.

[Note: in writing up this post I noticed that on page 115 it says that unprepared characters can "make a Perception check to avoid being Surprised". This directly contradicts the rule on page 199 that says Vigilance is used to avoid surprise. I keep getting the feeling that different people wrote different parts of the rulebook.]

Has anyone tried using Stealth as an initiative roll? i.e. ambushers use Stealth (with all the usual cover mods and gear-based upgrades) while the ambushees roll Vigilance?

Has anyone tried using Stealth as an initiative roll? i.e. ambushers use Stealth (with all the usual cover mods and gear-based upgrades) while the ambushees roll Vigilance?

This sort of leads into the whole 2 skills for initiative discussion. I personally don't see the need for two skills, and with the book suggesting a Perception check for spotting ambushes, kind of makes me wonder why bother with Vigilance at all. When you read Vigilance and Perceptions definitions in the game and compare them to literal definitions there really isn't much point imo.

When you read Vigilance and Perceptions definitions in the game and compare them to literal definitions there really isn't much point imo.

I know what you mean. I kinda wished they'd have combined them or, failing that, said "Vigilance is for all passive 'notice stuff' checks, Perception is for when you're actively looking for something reasonably specific."

I just hold out hope as they release more splatbooks they come up with more ways to use more skills. Like if they do a Gambler spec in Smuggler, come up with some new ways to use Cool. A Gunslinger in BH, "no one catches a Gunslinger off guard" and come up with stuff for Vigilance. Both my rolls are GY so I don't really pay any attention to either skill anyway,

@Hedgehobbit

I understand where you are coming from but remember the roll isn't just about the PC's or NPC's action or attack it's about determining the outcome of the scene/shot (shot in the film sense not the actual gunshot). If in your example Greedo wins the Initiative despite Han's Success that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't fooled by Han only that something happened in the scene that allowed him to see that Han was about to shoot and instead was able to act first. Maybe a server walked past and bumped into Han exposing his gun or Han gave away his intention with a facial expression just before firing, or some godlike being (a Director maybe with the initials GL) Dues Ex Machina and changed the situation slightly... whatever it is Greedo gets to act first. Yes it's a bummer but the dice are there to generate potentially unexpected results and thats were the tension in the scene comes from, you can't be sure whats going to happen until it actually does.

Now you may argue that Han's Deception should have allowed him to act first but as I mentioned earlier a Success isn't a guarantee further Successes. If it's just a simple Success without any Advantages or Triumphs in the RAW it doesn't have a mechanical effect. The PC still controls the scene though so lets say Han deceives Greedo into thinking he's safe but because he doesn't generate any Boost Dice (doesn't feel like he quite has enough of an advantage yet) so decides to wait for a better opportunity and instead lets Greedo talk a bit longer and then tries to slip his pistol out without him noticing (Stealth check in the hope of gaining a Boost die to his Initiative roll). We haven't entered Initiative yet and unless the situation changes or Han rolls a Threat it won't. If Han Fails but doesn't generate a Threat Greedo may suspect something and act but without any Bonuses. Now if Han rolled a Triumph on his Deception then it would be make sense to allow him to automatically attack first, but then rolling a Despair would also mean that Greedo could...

And this is all RAW, no arbitrary rulings or bonuses given unless they're rolled.

See how more dynamic and tension filled the is scene is?

Edited for spelling errors...

I'm going to be one of the few that says that a surprise round isn't a terrible idea… Granted, after reading all of the responses above I’d be more inclined to go with boosts on a Cool roll vs Vigilance. The difference between Cool and Vigilance is probably the best mechanic in this system for an ambush. I’d just like to toss in my two credits because we’ve used surprise attacks a few times, both for and against the PCs.

The first time we used a surprise round in this campaign we were assaulting a starport. Long story short, the guards were an opposing faction that had recently taken over the town but didn’t expect a strong resistance, or a party full of PCs. We were given a surprise round when the party entered extreme range because we rolled well on stealth and they weren’t expecting us. This worked for us because our sniper started shooting while the rest of the party closed to position.

In our current adventure we’re trudging through a jungle and have been ambushed by creatures a few times. Each time the GM gave the monsters a surprise round. Since it was a low number of monsters each time, this worked well because it showed the PCs how dangerous the jungle can be, which is making us paranoid, while pecking away our resources with creatures who are a minimal threat in a straight up fight.

What I’ve taken from this is that there is a time and a place for surprise rounds. If it fits the story and the GM’s goals, then having a surprise round can work. In the OP’s example, I wouldn’t give a surprise round. Sure, the player could go stealthy, not be seen, and not be attack until after he attacks. However, unless the entire party isn’t spotted then the fighting would still go on while the one guy hides in shadows. Now, if the party had pre-planned things and said they wanted to attack the moment the trap went off then things would be different. Asking for a surprise round after the fact is way too late. In the OP’s example, Cool vs Vigilance is appropriate to show who goes first when the trap is sprung.

I understand where you are coming from but remember the roll isn't just about the PC's or NPC's action or attack it's about determining the outcome of the scene/shot (shot in the film sense not the actual gunshot). If in your example Greedo wins the Initiative despite Han's Success that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't fooled by Han only that something happened in the scene that allowed him to see that Han was about to shoot and instead was able to act first. Maybe a server walked past and bumped into Han exposing his gun or Han gave away his intention with a facial expression just before firing, or some godlike being (a Director maybe with the initials GL) Dues Ex Machina and changed the situation slightly... whatever it is Greedo gets to act first. Yes it's a bummer but the dice are there to generate potentially unexpected results and thats were the tension in the scene comes from, you can't be sure whats gong to happen until it actually does.

All the table bumping stuff happens during the Deception roll, not the initiative roll. Tricking Greedo into not noticing him draw his blaster is the entire point of the scene. Once Han succeeds in that roll, he's "won" the encounter. Forcing him to roll again for initiative doesn't make it more dramatic or more narrative, it just make it less likely that he will succeed.

There's a nearly identical scene in the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

"When You Have to Shoot... Shoot, don't talk!"

There's enough tension in one die roll, a failure of which will result in a dead Han Solo. I don't see the advantage, either game-probability wise or story wise to force another separate roll (using skills unrelated to the current situation) that will also result in a dead Han if failed.

Well, the difference I see is that Initiative is the roll that determines who acts first in Combat, that's the RAW. So as I've described it the Deception roll is made prior to Combat to modify the Initiative roll which will determine who shoots first. In your description the Deception roll ignores the Initiative roll, rather than influencing it, and has the Attack take place outside of Combat, which makes it not RAW. You've basically created a Surprise round which is also not RAW.

As for winning the encounter all Han has done is even the field, Greedo still has his gun pointed at Han and can shoot at any time. Han still has to choose the right time to attack and like it or not thats a Combat action and order of Combat is determined by Initiative.

Now I don't have a problem with bending RAW on occasion to fit the story but only if there isn't another alternative and in this case I believe I've shown there is a good alternative that follows the RAW.

As for it being less likely to Succeed, that depends on how well Han rolls and how good he is.

I allow for a surprise round because it is not game breaking and often fits the narrative better. Also, when you roll for initiative you are not determining YOUR characters place in initiative but generating a PC slot. So John the smuggler could be super cool and get the first initiative, but Roar the wookiee, who generated the last PC slot, wants to use the first PC slot to swing his big vibroaxe. This makes no sense in some narrative situations. It is also why some of my players still argue for using set initiative slots: because it shows which PC was more aware in the situation.

If the bad guys failed their vigilance checks to spot the ambush, then if they do roll init and go first, they would have to roll to spot the ambushers instead of shooting. Seems easier to me to just let the players go first.

That is a very situational thing. If the NPCs really don't know where their attackers are, then with a very high Vigilance roll they at least realize they're under attack (or perhaps they are really paranoid and realize this is a good spot for an ambush), and take steps to prepare for the ambush.

But to this: why does the shooting only start with the first attack roll hits the table? Why can't it start the moment initiative is rolled or determined? A collectively low bunch of initiative rolls from the player's Cool skills could be narrated as such:

"You hoist your weapons and begin firing. The first several shots are wide overhead, and the sentries are quick to respond, ducking behind cover. They begin to trade fire with you immediately. Your carefully-planned ambush has now turned into a heated firefight—you'd better act fast to take these guards out before they're able to call in reinforcements."

OR

"As you take careful aim, you see the sun peek through the overhead clouds and reflect off your rifle's scope. You waited too long to line up a shot, and your would-be victims have discovered your ambush!"

OR

"You creep up silently on the Scout Trooper. He is completely unaware of you—until you step on a twig underfoot. He responds instantly, spinning around and punching you. He then yells for his nearby partner to take his speeder bike and go for help."

EDIT: a surprise round is unwarranted in this system because the dice already take care of that for you. The game isn't designed for it, and it eschews the narrative in favor wargamey mechanics IMO. No bueno.

I've never once had the need for a surprise round pop up during play, even though there have been several ambushes with my players on either side of the waiting blasters. Adding a boost die to the initiative check works fine, and if my players were to suggest "hey, do we maybe get a boost die to the first shot since we've taken the trouble of setting up this nice ambush?" I'd let them have that. But no surprise rounds.

There was a situation a while back where my players were waiting in ambush for some NPCs. I had the NPCs make their Perception vs. Stealth check, and they failed. And when time came to make initiative checks, two of the unaware NPCs won. Since they'd already failed the check to notice the ambush I ruled that they couldn't act on it until my players made the first move, but I had them draw weapons, use defensive talents, take cover and so on. My rationale was that they had a bad feeling about the situation, but couldn't quite put their finger on what was wrong.

I've never once had the need for a surprise round pop up during play, even though there have been several ambushes with my players on either side of the waiting blasters. Adding a boost die to the initiative check works fine, and if my players were to suggest "hey, do we maybe get a boost die to the first shot since we've taken the trouble of setting up this nice ambush?" I'd let them have that. But no surprise rounds.

There was a situation a while back where my players were waiting in ambush for some NPCs. I had the NPCs make their Perception vs. Stealth check, and they failed. And when time came to make initiative checks, two of the unaware NPCs won. Since they'd already failed the check to notice the ambush I ruled that they couldn't act on it until my players made the first move, but I had them draw weapons, use defensive talents, take cover and so on. My rationale was that they had a bad feeling about the situation, but couldn't quite put their finger on what was wrong.

A player could get upset about this, especially if those setback dice where the ones that kept the PCs from successfully pulling off their ambush. If the NPCs failed to spot them, then the PCs should be free to successfully pull off their action. Instead they are screwed because the NPCs who don't notice them still can prepare for an ambush they don't know about. To me, that breaks the narrative and would kill the immersion if I were a player. Is it really game breaking to allow the PCs a round of actions? Actions that they took pains to setup and prepare for? To me, that is more wargamey than allowing the PCs to act first or a surprise round.

A player could get upset about this, especially if those setback dice where the ones that kept the PCs from successfully pulling off their ambush.

I'm confused. What setback dice did Krieger22 mention?

If the NPCs failed to spot them, then the PCs should be free to successfully pull off their action. Instead they are screwed because the NPCs who don't notice them still can prepare for an ambush they don't know about.

As he said, those NPCs didn't know exactly what was going on, but they knew something was wrong.

I take it that you've never seen the movies where the characters on screen hear that all the animals have stopped making noises and it is suddenly way too quiet? Should these people completely ignore this sign and blithely stride ahead, comfortable in the knowledge that nothing bad could ever possibly happen to them, even if it suddenly is way too quiet?

To me, that breaks the narrative and would kill the immersion if I were a player. Is it really game breaking to allow the PCs a round of actions? Actions that they took pains to setup and prepare for? To me, that is more wargamey than allowing the PCs to act first or a surprise round.

What breaks the narrative is having the NPCs stand there completely unprepared and doing absolutely nothing to defend themselves, for one or more minutes straight -- all the while they are getting absolutely destroyed by hidden opponents which they couldn't previously see but could easily have inferred from their sudden feeling that something was wrong, even if they didn't know exactly what it was.

I'll say it again -- no surprise round. I'll say it again -- No Surprise Round. I'll say it again -- NO SURPRISE ROUND. I'll say it again -- NO FLIPPING SURPRISE ROUND. PERIOD.

Everything you could possibly achieve with a "surprise round" can be handled better and in a more narrative way through the use of setback and bonus dice for the respective PCs and NPCs. If you can't wrap your brain around that and you feel that you just gotta have that extra special hit that you can only possibly get from having a surprise round, then you need to go back and seriously re-think your approach to this game.

I fall into the "bonus on initiative roll" camp, but would add negative dice to the enemy rather than positive to the players.

Make the opponents' Vigilance vs. Stealth roll to spot the party their initiative roll. It doesn't make sense to have them roll to spot the ambush and then do initiative, when a successful roll can easily become their turn order. Turn any threat or despair into bonus maneuvers/boost dice/upgrades for the PCs.

The PCs roll Cool, as normal.

I understand where you are coming from but remember the roll isn't just about the PC's or NPC's action or attack it's about determining the outcome of the scene/shot (shot in the film sense not the actual gunshot). If in your example Greedo wins the Initiative despite Han's Success that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't fooled by Han only that something happened in the scene that allowed him to see that Han was about to shoot and instead was able to act first. Maybe a server walked past and bumped into Han exposing his gun or Han gave away his intention with a facial expression just before firing, or some godlike being (a Director maybe with the initials GL) Dues Ex Machina and changed the situation slightly... whatever it is Greedo gets to act first. Yes it's a bummer but the dice are there to generate potentially unexpected results and thats were the tension in the scene comes from, you can't be sure whats gong to happen until it actually does.

All the table bumping stuff happens during the Deception roll, not the initiative roll. Tricking Greedo into not noticing him draw his blaster is the entire point of the scene. Once Han succeeds in that roll, he's "won" the encounter. Forcing him to roll again for initiative doesn't make it more dramatic or more narrative, it just make it less likely that he will succeed.

There's a nearly identical scene in the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

"When You Have to Shoot... Shoot, don't talk!"

There's enough tension in one die roll, a failure of which will result in a dead Han Solo. I don't see the advantage, either game-probability wise or story wise to force another separate roll (using skills unrelated to the current situation) that will also result in a dead Han if failed.

I'd say that's a matter of Han winning his Cool vs. Greedo's Vigilance or Cool. Cool, after all, is about maintaining composure in a stressful situation, such as readying an ambush and knowing when to strike, but I also see it as not giving yourself away when you're readying that ambush, too. Even when the "ambush" is a quick draw. Han is doing three things in that scene, as I see it: one is using Deception or Charm to convince Greedo to back down, that there's another way to resolve the situation, and then recognizing that Greedo has no intention of solving things amicably, before succeeding on his Cool check in not tipping his hand, and getting to shoot before Greedo realizes he's in danger, perhaps with Greedo rolling a Triumph to get a free maneuver before his first turn, which he uses to draw his blaster.

I think granting a boost die to the characters initiative seems fair for indicating a form of surprise round.

If one of the characters is a force sensitive exile with the sense power active,then that character would get 2 boost dice to

initiative.

This is one approach to handling surprise rounds,but i do not use surprise rounds due to the way initiative

is handled in EotE.

I guess it's a matter of how lethal you want your game to be. If I were playing Cyberpunk or GURPS or 40k or a horror game I'd expect ambushes to be the most day-ruiningest thing ever. In Star Wars (even scummy EotE), not so much.

Rounds can be up to a minute long yeah? I'd say the ambushers have a really good chance of getting the first shot in, but not a whole round of attacks without opportunity for retaliation/retreat.

Perhaps have the ambushers roll Stealth vs. Vigilance. Those who pass automatically get an initiative slot before the ambushees. Those who fail roll initiative as normal. (No slot-trades in the first round.)

Theres nothing wrong with these ideas, giving a Boost die, but theres no need for it to automatic. Roll the Skill vs Skill to determine if the ambush worked and how well. If the result is a simple Success or Failure then the situation doesn't change enough to merit a Boost or Setback (however a Success does give the PCs the option to choose where the battle takes place, and thats going to be an advantage. A Failure and the GM could choose a place where the PCs are at a disadvantage). If the roll generates enough Advantages or Threats then apply Boosts and Setbacks exactly as you normally would. Simple and totally within the RAW, no need to make a new rule or arbitrarily grant anything.

I'm not a EotE fan boy but the more I play the more I see just how broad and encompassing the RAW is without any modification. You can account for and measure the level of success or failure of just about any type of situation or idea by choosing the appropriate Skill(s) and whether it's a strait or opposed roll and see the result based on what that roll generates. It doesn't make it roll-playing it just determines how effective your role-playing is in a mechanical sense.

Most of the time when I see a post on a House Rule or a question on how to do something (like create an ambush) there is already a way to accomplish it in the RAW, it's just not specifically stated and the result isn't binary (Success or Fail giving a specific effect, but rather levels of Success and Failure). Once you really get the system you have the tools to rule on just about anything.

One of the reasons I enjoy reading the Adventure Modules even without plans to run them are the mechanics they point out that can be used to run scenarios that they have hinted at in the broader Core/Supplement books. I think that it'll just take some time for us all to figure out how to put this vastly comprehensive system to use for ourselves.

I take it that you've never seen the movies where the characters on screen hear that all the animals have stopped making noises and it is suddenly way too quiet? Should these people completely ignore this sign and blithely stride ahead, comfortable in the knowledge that nothing bad could ever possibly happen to them, even if it suddenly is way too quiet?

I like this.

Note that Vigilance is not the "I notice stuff" skill. Perception takes that role, and it seems that even now people get them confused and think that the devs screwed up or something.

Vigilance is the "I didn't notice the stuff, but I am prepared for it anyway" skill. A character who is particularly fastidious or paranoid is "ready for anything," as the young Luke Skywalker once said. This is totally not immersion breaking. Just have your NPCs that win the initiative roll act off their knowledge, utilizing the dice to aid you in narrating the scene.

I'll say it again -- no surprise round. I'll say it again -- No Surprise Round. I'll say it again -- NO SURPRISE ROUND. I'll say it again -- NO FLIPPING SURPRISE ROUND. PERIOD.

Surely GMs and players are within their rights to do what is fun for them in their games? The FFG Rules Enforcement Unit might have somehing to say about that, I suppose. But we are simply discussing ways to allow for this sort of occurrence in each other's games.

I'll say it again -- no surprise round. I'll say it again -- No Surprise Round. I'll say it again -- NO SURPRISE ROUND. I'll say it again -- NO FLIPPING SURPRISE ROUND. PERIOD.

Surely GMs and players are within their rights to do what is fun for them in their games? The FFG Rules Enforcement Unit might have somehing to say about that, I suppose. But we are simply discussing ways to allow for this sort of occurrence in each other's games.

Over in the thread "FFG Developer Answered Questions" at <http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/>, they actually address this issue. According to them, there is no surprise round.

However, as you say, ultimately all rules are subject to the decision by the GM as to how things work in their universe. Personally, having a "surprise round" of any kind, way, shape, or form would totally break immersion for me and I cannot possibly see how that could be consistent with anything else in the FFG Star Wars rules.

But if there are GMs out there who decide that this is the way their version of the Universe works, then neither I nor the FFG game developers are in any position to tell them that they are not allowed to play their game the way they want to play it.

I fall into the "bonus on initiative roll" camp, but would add negative dice to the enemy rather than positive to the players.

Make the opponents' Vigilance vs. Stealth roll to spot the party their initiative roll. It doesn't make sense to have them roll to spot the ambush and then do initiative, when a successful roll can easily become their turn order. Turn any threat or despair into bonus maneuvers/boost dice/upgrades for the PCs.

The PCs roll Cool, as normal.

I don't see the need for the GM to decide at all. With how I handle these kind of things (as I've described in my examples earlier in this thread) the roll prior to the the Initiative roll gives you everything you need already. Whatever Skill you choose (Cool, Stealth, Survival, Streetwise, or whatever else may fit) you make the roll and spend whatever Advantages and Triumphs, or Threats and Despairs you generate as you like. Add Boosts to your own Initiative roll or Setbacks to their's is up to the PCs.

~~~~~

I don't think people actually have a problem with the adding of Boost or Setback to the initiative roll, what I think some people are having a problem with is the idea of what to do with a strait Success, or Failure, that doesn't generate any bonuses or penalties and the possibility of the opponent's winning the Initiative roll even though an ambush has been set. Some people think that a Success should give a bonus even if no Advantages are rolled generating any Boost dice and/or that if you won that roll you should at least get to go first. However a strict interpretation of the RAW falls on how I do it; you roll one skill to influence the outcome of another roll by adding any generated bonuses or penalties of the first roll to the second roll, Successes don't generate bonuses and Failures don't generate penalties. Mechanically thats how the system works. But then what do you do with a strait Success or Failure in this case?

In the example of an Ambush a strait Success does give a bonus just not a bonus die. A successful laying of an abash allows the PCs to choose the point of engagement in they're favor. They get to choose the best terrain, best cover for them least amount for their opponents, if and when the engagement begins, have their weapons ready all sorts of things. Setting up the field so that you are behind cover and in your desired range band with your weapon out while the enemy is in the open are all significant advantages even if you don't actually get the first shot off. Being able to have all this is enough to give for a Success. A Failure would mean you would not gain any of these advantages, the encounter would begin as any other.

Another thing to remember is that Initiative isn't just about whose the quickest or most prepared it's about everything that happens in the scene, a PC's quickness is only part of the equation that forms the base for the roll. If you roll low it's not necessarily because of you are slow but rather something happened in the scene despite all your best laid plans and superior ability and you ended up in last place. In the case of an ambush you'll still have all the advantages I mentioned earlier, you just didn't get your shot off before the bad guys... C'est la vie. (Such is life)

Edit: I'm adding this because I mentioned it in an later post to clarify my position:

If you roll a Triumph in the RAW it states "a Triumph result indicates an unexpected boon or significantly beneficial effect related to the task" which is easily interpreted as allowing the PCs to have the Initiative without even rolling for it.