The question of Advanced Sensors+Decloak relies on timing details we simply don't have for X-wing. The two actions depend on each other, and depend on when conditions are checked. You can't cloak if you already have a cloak token, and you can't decloak unless you do. So figuring out what you can and can't do with simultaneous cloak effects relies on knowing when those conditions are checked, and what the detailed timing is for simultaneous abilities. We don't know that. Honestly, I'm not sure FFG actually knows that, because I haven't seen anything that hints at some secret detailed timing model.

So it'll be whatever FFG says it is.

The question of decloaking twice for a single dial is safer, IMHO. One dial, one opportunity to trigger an effect, one decloaking. Honestly, anyone who thinks they'll let you double decloak hasn't been paying much attention. The Phantom is already a crazy maneuverable ship, you really think they're going to let you pull a speed 5 move sideways before your normal action? Even though the rules on this one are solid, even if they weren't you had to know that wasn't going to work.

Any event can only occur once per opportunity. But, if events occur at the same time, they can resolve in any order. Therefore, you CAN Cloak and immediately Decloak with Advanced Sensors, but you CANNOT Decloak multiple times unless you reveal multiple dials for the same ship. There is only one opportunity to Decloak according to the rules "Immediately before you reveal your maneuver dial," so you can only decloak once before you reveal your maneuver dial. And if you are denied a maneuver dial, you cannot decloak.

It'll be very dependent on just how many things FFG will rule that you can ACTUALLY do "immediately before" you reveal your dial/maneuver: IMO you can only do 1 thing immediately before something else, but however they will rule it will:

A) Be perfectly okay with me

and

B) Make certain people/tupes go an a rant a sream "Well NOW FFG went at did it again!!"

You can certainly do two. It's a quesion of if you can add things midway through. We already know you can both decloak and use Advanced sensors, just not if you can cloak and then immediatley strip the token.

You can Fett and Navigator once you revela your dial in any order.

The same precedent applies to Advanced Sensors and decloak.

There is (IMO) a HUGE difference between what is suggested with Adv.S and cloak/decloak and your example:

For both Adv.S and decloak it says "immediately before" but for both Boba's ability and Navigator it says "when you reveal"

Both are addressed by a FAQ entry about timing.

The timing of when you do something and immediatley before is the same semantically in this situation. The issue with not saying immediatley before is that if Advanced sensors didn't declare immediatley I could have Ibtisam Barrel Roll before the PS1 pilots moved, which would be a very different card.

No you couldn't. If you read the 1 section/column on page 7 regarding Activation Phase in the rulebook (I have bolded words for clarity): Activation Phase During this phase, each ship is activated one at a time. Starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill, resolve the following steps in order: 1. Reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup. 2. Set Template: Take the maneuver template that matches the chosen maneuver on the dial and slide the template between the front guides of the ship’s base (the two small bumps). Insert it so that the end of the template is flush against the base. 3. Execute Maneuver: Holding the template firmly in place, grip the side walls of the base and lift the ship off the play surface. Then place the ship at the opposite end of the template, sliding the rear guides of the ship into the opposite end of the template. Exception: To execute a maneuver, see “Koiogran Turn.” If the ship has any tokens assigned to it (such as action tokens or stress tokens), move these tokens along with the ship. Note: If a ship executes a maneuver that causes either its base or the maneuver template in use to physically overlap with another ship base, see “Moving Through a Ship” and “Overlapping Other Ships” on page 17. 4. Check Pilot Stress: If the ship just executed a red maneuver, place one stress token near the ship. If the ship just executed a green maneuver, remove one stress token from the ship (if any) and return the token to the miscellaneous token supply (see “Stress” on page 17). 5. Clean Up: Return the used template to the pile of maneuver templates. Place the revealed dial outside the play area, near the ship’s corresponding Ship card. 6. Perform Action: The ship may perform one action. Actions provide a wide range of benefits and are described on pages 8–9. A ship with one or more stress tokens cannot perform actions (see “Stress” on page 17). So a "Fail" on that argument IMO

And why not? If advanced Sensors says, "Before you reveal your manuever dial," anytime before is applicable. Including before PS1 Pilots.. Immediatley limits that, check the FAQ entry I posted. It's the very first question asked.

Immediatley is a timing limitation, not a number limitation.

I wish you good luck in your future ventures of trolling. Hopefully you will do better in that field than you currently do of understanding that you CANNOT activate a ship before it's turn and thus you CANNOT use Adv.Sensors whenever you feel like it "before" you reveal your dial

Does anybody remember the great Adrenaline Rush debate?

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/88528-adrenaline-rush-and-stress/

Ah, good times.

Both Advanced Sensors and Decloak are Immediately Before You Reveal Your Maneuver Dial, ie: the first thing you do that turn. They both trigger at the same time. As per the FAQ, you resolve two simultaneous events in an order of your choosing. Both trigger immediately prior to revealing your maneuver dial and thus trigger simultaneously.

This means that you could Cloak as an action with Adv Sensor, then Decloak in order to super-barrelroll. This would cost you your action and you would need to be cloaked already.

Likewise, if you were already cloaked, you could decloak to super-barrelroll and then Adv Sensors to Cloak before moving. Useful if you're going to hit something.

Also, why are you calling Aminar a troll? He's one of the least trolly users around.

Likewise, if you were already cloaked, you could decloak to super-barrelroll and then Adv Sensors ...

The question I have is, since they both trigger simultaneously and you presumably put them in a queue to resolve in the order you want, does that mean you have to commit to doing advanced sensors before you see where exactly you end up after decloaking?

It'll be very dependent on just how many things FFG will rule that you can ACTUALLY do "immediately before" you reveal your dial/maneuver: IMO you can only do 1 thing immediately before something else, but however they will rule it will:

A) Be perfectly okay with me

and

B) Make certain people/tupes go an a rant a sream "Well NOW FFG went at did it again!!"

You can certainly do two. It's a quesion of if you can add things midway through. We already know you can both decloak and use Advanced sensors, just not if you can cloak and then immediatley strip the token.

You can Fett and Navigator once you revela your dial in any order.

The same precedent applies to Advanced Sensors and decloak.

There is (IMO) a HUGE difference between what is suggested with Adv.S and cloak/decloak and your example:

For both Adv.S and decloak it says "immediately before" but for both Boba's ability and Navigator it says "when you reveal"

Both are addressed by a FAQ entry about timing.

The timing of when you do something and immediatley before is the same semantically in this situation. The issue with not saying immediatley before is that if Advanced sensors didn't declare immediatley I could have Ibtisam Barrel Roll before the PS1 pilots moved, which would be a very different card.

No you couldn't. If you read the 1 section/column on page 7 regarding Activation Phase in the rulebook (I have bolded words for clarity): Activation Phase During this phase, each ship is activated one at a time. Starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill, resolve the following steps in order: 1. Reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup. 2. Set Template: Take the maneuver template that matches the chosen maneuver on the dial and slide the template between the front guides of the ship’s base (the two small bumps). Insert it so that the end of the template is flush against the base. 3. Execute Maneuver: Holding the template firmly in place, grip the side walls of the base and lift the ship off the play surface. Then place the ship at the opposite end of the template, sliding the rear guides of the ship into the opposite end of the template. Exception: To execute a maneuver, see “Koiogran Turn.” If the ship has any tokens assigned to it (such as action tokens or stress tokens), move these tokens along with the ship. Note: If a ship executes a maneuver that causes either its base or the maneuver template in use to physically overlap with another ship base, see “Moving Through a Ship” and “Overlapping Other Ships” on page 17. 4. Check Pilot Stress: If the ship just executed a red maneuver, place one stress token near the ship. If the ship just executed a green maneuver, remove one stress token from the ship (if any) and return the token to the miscellaneous token supply (see “Stress” on page 17). 5. Clean Up: Return the used template to the pile of maneuver templates. Place the revealed dial outside the play area, near the ship’s corresponding Ship card. 6. Perform Action: The ship may perform one action. Actions provide a wide range of benefits and are described on pages 8–9. A ship with one or more stress tokens cannot perform actions (see “Stress” on page 17). So a "Fail" on that argument IMO

And why not? If advanced Sensors says, "Before you reveal your manuever dial," anytime before is applicable. Including before PS1 Pilots.. Immediatley limits that, check the FAQ entry I posted. It's the very first question asked.

Immediatley is a timing limitation, not a number limitation.

I wish you good luck in your future ventures of trolling. Hopefully you will do better in that field than you currently do of understanding that you CANNOT activate a ship before it's turn and thus you CANNOT use Adv.Sensors whenever you feel like it "before" you reveal your dial

I'm the "guy on BGG" who talked to the designers about it. Alex and Frank and I talked at Imdaar Alpha this last Saturday.

They confirmed:

You CAN Advanced Sensors to take your action to Cloak, then Decloak before moving.

You CAN De-Cloak and Advanced Sensors to (re) Cloak before moving.

You can NOT De-Cloak, Advanced Sensors to Cloak then do a second Decloak before moving.

Doing so violates the "once per trigger" rule. Spending the Cloak token requires two things: a cloak token, and a reveal of a movement dial. You have the token, but not the trigger for the Decloak non-action.

This will be in the next FAQ revision from what I understand.

Both Advanced Sensors and Decloak are Immediately Before You Reveal Your Maneuver Dial, ie: the first thing you do that turn. They both trigger at the same time. As per the FAQ, you resolve two simultaneous events in an order of your choosing. Both trigger immediately prior to revealing your maneuver dial and thus trigger simultaneously.

This means that you could Cloak as an action with Adv Sensor, then Decloak in order to super-barrelroll. This would cost you your action and you would need to be cloaked already.

Likewise, if you were already cloaked, you could decloak to super-barrelroll and then Adv Sensors to Cloak before moving. Useful if you're going to hit something.

Also, why are you calling Aminar a troll? He's one of the least trolly users around.

He's missing my point about why the word immediatley is used, in favor of thinking I'm trying to argue that Advanced Sensors works differently than it does. Or he hasn't played games against enough rules lawyers to have picked up on the obscurity meanings of words can have in game rules. Either way, he's free to think I'm trying to piss him off. I'm expressing that two effects can happen "immediatly" before you reveal your dial.

Likewise, if you were already cloaked, you could decloak to super-barrelroll and then Adv Sensors ...

The question I have is, since they both trigger simultaneously and you presumably put them in a queue to resolve in the order you want, does that mean you have to commit to doing advanced sensors before you see where exactly you end up after decloaking?

Good point. I'd say yes. Otherwise they aren't simultaneously triggered.

Does anybody remember the great Adrenaline Rush debate?

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/88528-adrenaline-rush-and-stress/

Ah, good times.

Let's not forget the great 'Vader barrel rolls twice' debate of oh-12...

Also, why are you calling Aminar a troll? He's one of the least trolly users around.

He is, and that was completely uncalled for. He was even making a fairly logical point, without the term Immediately, it does open some rather odd possibility from a RAW stance.

Also Forensicus argument seems pretty flawed to start with, because it seems he's claiming you can only preform one action with AdvSen prior to revealing your dial, but PTL already lets you do two things.

If immediately is simply a timing mechanic to say you cant adv sensor before a ps1 pilot: how does it work with PTL?

ptl says once per round, after you perform an action......

does that mean I can wait to use my PTL until after I fire since it does not have to happen immediately after?

All I know is that my Phantoms now come with Advanced Sensors built in.

If immediately is simply a timing mechanic to say you cant adv sensor before a ps1 pilot: how does it work with PTL?

You're still limited to using the free action during your activation phase, but you can use PtL when you do some sort of free action such as when you use Turr's free Boost/BR action.

It'll be very dependent on just how many things FFG will rule that you can ACTUALLY do "immediately before" you reveal your dial/maneuver: IMO you can only do 1 thing immediately before something else, but however they will rule it will:

A) Be perfectly okay with me

and

B) Make certain people/tupes go an a rant a sream "Well NOW FFG went at did it again!!"

You can certainly do two. It's a quesion of if you can add things midway through. We already know you can both decloak and use Advanced sensors, just not if you can cloak and then immediatley strip the token.

You can Fett and Navigator once you revela your dial in any order.

The same precedent applies to Advanced Sensors and decloak.

There is (IMO) a HUGE difference between what is suggested with Adv.S and cloak/decloak and your example:

For both Adv.S and decloak it says "immediately before" but for both Boba's ability and Navigator it says "when you reveal"

Both are addressed by a FAQ entry about timing.

The timing of when you do something and immediatley before is the same semantically in this situation. The issue with not saying immediatley before is that if Advanced sensors didn't declare immediatley I could have Ibtisam Barrel Roll before the PS1 pilots moved, which would be a very different card.

No you couldn't. If you read the 1 section/column on page 7 regarding Activation Phase in the rulebook (I have bolded words for clarity):

Activation Phase

During this phase, each ship is activated one at a

time. Starting with the ship with the lowest pilot

skill, resolve the following steps in order:

1. Reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver

dial by flipping it faceup.

2. Set Template: Take the maneuver template

that matches the chosen maneuver on the dial

and slide the template between the front guides

of the ship’s base (the two small bumps).

Insert it so that the end of the template is flush

against the base.

3. Execute Maneuver: Holding the template

firmly in place, grip the side walls of the base

and lift the ship off the play surface. Then place

the ship at the opposite end of the template,

sliding the rear guides of the ship into the

opposite end of the template.

Exception: To execute a maneuver, see

“Koiogran Turn.”

If the ship has any tokens assigned to it (such

as action tokens or stress tokens), move these

tokens along with the ship.

Note: If a ship executes a maneuver that

causes either its base or the maneuver

template in use to physically overlap with

another ship base, see “Moving Through a Ship”

and “Overlapping Other Ships” on page 17.

4. Check Pilot Stress: If the ship just executed

a red maneuver, place one stress token near the

ship. If the ship just executed a green maneuver,

remove one stress token from the ship (if any)

and return the token to the miscellaneous token

supply (see “Stress” on page 17).

5. Clean Up: Return the used template to the

pile of maneuver templates. Place the revealed

dial outside the play area, near the ship’s

corresponding Ship card.

6. Perform Action: The ship may perform one

action. Actions provide a wide range of benefits

and are described on pages 8–9. A ship with one

or more stress tokens cannot perform actions

(see “Stress” on page 17).

So a "Fail" on that argument IMO

And why not? If advanced Sensors says, "Before you reveal your manuever dial," anytime before is applicable. Including before PS1 Pilots.. Immediatley limits that, check the FAQ entry I posted. It's the very first question asked.

Immediatley is a timing limitation, not a number limitation.

Ohh, I can read (and was aware of) the FAQ you refer to, but saying that "before" could mean before it is that ship's turn is just plain foolish

but saying that "before" could mean before it is that ship's turn is just plain foolish

No actually it isn't, not if you look at it from a strictly RAW point of view and are willing to play the rules lawyer.

Going purely RAW, before means any time prior to revealing the dial for that ship. Granted few people would make this argument because the intention is pretty clear. But that doesn't make it foolish.

No, not as it is worded now. Obviously. But if the Advanced Sensors card were worded without immediatly it would work very very differently.

It actually wouldn't. Any more than you could use save any other ability for later if it doesn't say "immediately". Immediately is a (fuzzy) modifier, but any and all abilities are resolved as soon as their trigger conditions are met.

but saying that "before" could mean before it is that ship's turn is just plain foolish

No actually it isn't, not if you look at it from a strictly RAW point of view and are willing to play the rules lawyer.

Going purely RAW, before means any time prior to revealing the dial for that ship. Granted few people would make this argument because the intention is pretty clear. But that doesn't make it foolish.

Sorry, but no. "before" isn't some grand window of "any time before" any more than "after" is some grand window of "any time after".

We have a very exact ruling that backs this up: Night Beast. If you could delay enacting the resolution past the trigger AT ALL, Night Beast could start the turn stressed, execute a green (triggering his ability), then wait until the stress clears before taking the free action. He can't. That's because "after" really does mean "immediately after", except that "immediately" is a funny term that we don't really have a good definition for.

I was planning on Adv. sensors, engin boost on I believe "whisper" (the one with the 2 bank decloak). Insane drifting action when you can either boost then decloak or vice versa before even revealing the dial.

So what's more important to you guys, Advanced Sensors to Cloak and immediately Decloak before your maneuver, or using Advanced Cloaking Device to cloak after an attack? ACD allows you to perform a free Cloak action, so you cannot do it after Cloaking in the Activation phase.

I'm thinking ACD on Whisper and Advanced Sensors on Echo.

So what's more important to you guys, Advanced Sensors to Cloak and immediately Decloak before your maneuver, or using Advanced Cloaking Device to cloak after an attack? ACD allows you to perform a free Cloak action, so you cannot do it after Cloaking in the Activation phase.

I'm thinking ACD on Whisper and Advanced Sensors on Echo.

Why would you have to make this choice?

ACD should ensure that you're cloaked at the start of each turn. So long as you are, there's no reason to worry about cloaking via Advanced Sensors.

They're also no exclusive upgrades, so you don't really have to choose between them... but I tend to think Advanced Sensors is going to be of minimal use. The two golden cases for Advanced Sensors are both action loss, due to stress or collision. A stressed Phantom is a VERY bad idea, and if you can't manage to avoid a collision with all the option available as part of the decloak, well...

So what's more important to you guys, Advanced Sensors to Cloak and immediately Decloak before your maneuver, or using Advanced Cloaking Device to cloak after an attack? ACD allows you to perform a free Cloak action, so you cannot do it after Cloaking in the Activation phase.

I'm thinking ACD on Whisper and Advanced Sensors on Echo.

Why would you have to make this choice?

ACD should ensure that you're cloaked at the start of each turn. So long as you are, there's no reason to worry about cloaking via Advanced Sensors.

They're also no exclusive upgrades, so you don't really have to choose between them... but I tend to think Advanced Sensors is going to be of minimal use. The two golden cases for Advanced Sensors are both action loss, due to stress or collision. A stressed Phantom is a VERY bad idea, and if you can't manage to avoid a collision with all the option available as part of the decloak, well...

Didn't mean that you could ONLY choose one or the other, but you'll want good use out of both of them. And they don't work particularly well together, so even though each still gives you a hefty benefit independent of the other, if you can only use each of them half the time, it makes the high cost of taking both not worth it. I agree that unstressed Phantoms are happy Phantoms, and stress will be a big consideration in that the dial is really similar to a basic TIE Fighter and can't clear stress all that well. The Phantom is more mobile due to Cloaking/Decloaking, but can't cloak while stressed, even from ACD.

So basically, I just used an entire paragraph to say this:

I agree with you.

but saying that "before" could mean before it is that ship's turn is just plain foolish

No actually it isn't, not if you look at it from a strictly RAW point of view and are willing to play the rules lawyer.

Going purely RAW, before means any time prior to revealing the dial for that ship. Granted few people would make this argument because the intention is pretty clear. But that doesn't make it foolish.

Sorry, but no. "before" isn't some grand window of "any time before" any more than "after" is some grand window of "any time after".

We have a very exact ruling that backs this up: Night Beast. If you could delay enacting the resolution past the trigger AT ALL, Night Beast could start the turn stressed, execute a green (triggering his ability), then wait until the stress clears before taking the free action. He can't. That's because "after" really does mean "immediately after", except that "immediately" is a funny term that we don't really have a good definition for.

Which is almost definitley why Night Beast has a Faq entry and everything after uses the word immediatley.

Which is almost definitley why Night Beast has a Faq entry and everything after uses the word immediatley.

Like push the limit and jake Farrell and turr phenir. Oh, wait...