Predator only affects the ship it's on. Adding an area effect would make Howlrunner less special

So, Outmaneuver doesn't make Wedge less special?

I do agree that a limitation (like the one placed on Outmaneuver) should also be a part of Predator. Maybe it could only work against PS 2 or lower.

Wedge can take Outmaneuver as his EPT. Think on that one.

As for Predator, how is it "wrong" for doing what it says on the card, and how does making it an overpowered AoE make it "right"? That's like saying Opportunist is wrong because it should instead give you two shields. It makes no sense at all.

sorry could't resist

Predator, in this regard, is just wrong... Instead of the 2 die re-roll against low level pilots it should be a R1 area affect, like Howlrunner. This change might warrant that the card's cost also be increased to 4 or 5 points. (Black + 4 points = Howlrunner)

Yeah except no. The entire point of almost all of wave 4 was to shift the meta away from low PS swarms and into high PS elite named pilots. Predator is a) an EPT and b) penalizes low PS. EPTs for the most part appear only on mid to high skill pilots. if you made it into an area affect, then you'd be completely hamstringing their intentions. That's, you know, kinda why they did exactly the opposite of that thing you just said.

But - Wedge can run outmaneuver to annihilate things...

But - Wedge can run outmaneuver to annihilate things...

IF he can consistently remain out of Front Arc, which can be very difficult for an X-wing. If an upgrade costs 3 points or more you need to use it just about every turn or you probably could have spend your points better. X-wings aren't known for their arc-dodging prowess. But, hey, if you can make it work, make it happen! Maybe with an Engine Upgrade?

I do admit, Predator has me curious to try a swarm without Howlrunner that still has some of her effects. Specifically, a list I plan to try out:

• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Academy (12)
• Backstabber (16)
• Mauler + Outmaneuver (20)

Concept is fairly simple - run the mini-swarm of BSPs and the AP slowly up the middle, run the other two along the sides as flankers. Whoever my opponent chooses to focus on, make 'em pay with the others.

Agreed. The idea of spending Howlrunner's points on Predator elite pilot talents, and getting a loose 'pack' of higher PS pilots rather than one predictable blob just begging for an assault missile to the face with a clear achilles heel is tempting in the extreme - especially since Predator is even better when engaging a classic TIE swarm as you get two rerolls to one - and shoot first.

I do admit, Predator has me curious to try a swarm without Howlrunner that still has some of her effects. Specifically, a list I plan to try out:

• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Academy (12)
• Backstabber (16)
• Mauler + Outmaneuver (20)

Concept is fairly simple - run the mini-swarm of BSPs and the AP slowly up the middle, run the other two along the sides as flankers. Whoever my opponent chooses to focus on, make 'em pay with the others.

Agreed. The idea of spending Howlrunner's points on Predator elite pilot talents, and getting a loose 'pack' of higher PS pilots rather than one predictable blob just begging for an assault missile to the face with a clear achilles heel is tempting in the extreme - especially since Predator is even better when engaging a classic TIE swarm as you get two rerolls to one - and shoot first.

That would be one hell of a squad...

But - Wedge can run outmaneuver to annihilate things...

IF he can consistently remain out of Front Arc, which can be very difficult for an X-wing. If an upgrade costs 3 points or more you need to use it just about every turn or you probably could have spend your points better. X-wings aren't known for their arc-dodging prowess. But, hey, if you can make it work, make it happen! Maybe with an Engine Upgrade?

And again we see the awesome internal balance of the game at work. Wedge could run Outmaneuver, but he'd be using the basic X-Wing dial to try and pull it off. He could add Engine Upgrade to improve his odds of getting into a position to use it, but it would be at the expense of using a target lock or focus to improve his chances of hitting in the first place...

How about something like this?

Black Squadron + Predator (17)

Black Squadron + Predator (17)

Mauler Mithal + Swarm Tactics (19)

Howlrunner + Swarm Tactics (20)

Royal Guard + PtL + Targeting Computer (27)

That choice for that last 27 points can be adjusted to taste. I picture the 4 Ties splitting into two teams with Mauler and Howl each a team leader...

But - Wedge can run outmaneuver to annihilate things...

IF he can consistently remain out of Front Arc, which can be very difficult for an X-wing. If an upgrade costs 3 points or more you need to use it just about every turn or you probably could have spend your points better. X-wings aren't known for their arc-dodging prowess. But, hey, if you can make it work, make it happen! Maybe with an Engine Upgrade?

And again we see the awesome internal balance of the game at work. Wedge could run Outmaneuver, but he'd be using the basic X-Wing dial to try and pull it off. He could add Engine Upgrade to improve his odds of getting into a position to use it, but it would be at the expense of using a target lock or focus to improve his chances of hitting in the first place...

Lets not forget Outmaneuver on Wedge is wasted against 1 agility ships too, I mean nobody ever uses B-wings or Falcons am I right?(At the Imdaars in my area I believe 21 out of 30 lists used at least 1 1-agility ship, most of these using multiples)

I do admit, Predator has me curious to try a swarm without Howlrunner that still has some of her effects. Specifically, a list I plan to try out:

• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Academy (12)
• Backstabber (16)
• Mauler + Outmaneuver (20)

Concept is fairly simple - run the mini-swarm of BSPs and the AP slowly up the middle, run the other two along the sides as flankers. Whoever my opponent chooses to focus on, make 'em pay with the others.

That's very close to my thought on replacing Howlrunner in a swarm with Predator upgrades:

BSP + Predator (x4)

Backstabber

Dark Curse

It loses the obvious blocker that the quoted squad has and cuts out "the big gun" Mauler but gets more uniformity in the TIEs and also brings in the harder to kill Dark Curse.

I do admit, Predator has me curious to try a swarm without Howlrunner that still has some of her effects. Specifically, a list I plan to try out:

• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Academy (12)
• Backstabber (16)
• Mauler + Outmaneuver (20)

Concept is fairly simple - run the mini-swarm of BSPs and the AP slowly up the middle, run the other two along the sides as flankers. Whoever my opponent chooses to focus on, make 'em pay with the others.

That's very close to my thought on replacing Howlrunner in a swarm with Predator upgrades:

BSP + Predator (x4)

Backstabber

Dark Curse

It loses the obvious blocker that the quoted squad has and cuts out "the big gun" Mauler but gets more uniformity in the TIEs and also brings in the harder to kill Dark Curse.

Check out my Apex Predators thread. There's a mini discussion there about BSP+ predators and the swarm. I'm more interested in Big with a mini swarm but some people think Predator swarm is a thing... I think it's a great subtype for swarm.

Wedge + Outmaneuver isn't a complete waste against 1 agility ships. Range 3 shots and asteroids. It also allows him to mitigates the effects of EM emitter when firing through a Huge ship. Wedge + Outmaneuver has your opponent forced to take him head on because if he ever flanks you the chances of that pilot's time on the board is over.

Check out my Apex Predators thread. There's a mini discussion there about BSP+ predators and the swarm. I'm more interested in Big with a mini swarm but some people think Predator swarm is a thing... I think it's a great subtype for swarm.

I believe I had just posted that same "build" to that thread BEFORE I posted it here.

Wedge + Outmaneuver isn't a complete waste against 1 agility ships. Range 3 shots and asteroids. It also allows him to mitigates the effects of EM emitter when firing through a Huge ship. Wedge + Outmaneuver has your opponent forced to take him head on because if he ever flanks you the chances of that pilot's time on the board is over.

That's the bait ehind Outmaneuver. It makes them want to look at you, similar to Backstabber, and they have to decide if its better to focus on the formation or turn and face him. But, with Wedge, he's not likely to be behind the enemy all that often anyway, and he already gets a big benefit of the card all the time, in arc or not. Wedge COULD do terrible things to ships with Outmaneuver, but for three points, I want to be able to use the ability on nearly every attack. If he catches Soontir from behind with Outmaneuver, it's over for Soontir. If he gets behind a B-wing, even at Range, that B-wing is taking some damage. But, the extra benefit will be way too infrequent. More often than not, the ships that would benefit from it the most will be trying to get behind him and being way better at it.

Check out my Apex Predators thread. There's a mini discussion there about BSP+ predators and the swarm. I'm more interested in Big with a mini swarm but some people think Predator swarm is a thing... I think it's a great subtype for swarm.

I believe I had just posted that same "build" to that thread BEFORE I posted it here.

Then it's either excellent coordination or a little repetition. You know what they say about repetition... repetition, repetition, repetition!

Sorry... now I have to go make an Echo build.

Check out my Apex Predators thread. There's a mini discussion there about BSP+ predators and the swarm. I'm more interested in Big with a mini swarm but some people think Predator swarm is a thing... I think it's a great subtype for swarm.

I believe I had just posted that same "build" to that thread BEFORE I posted it here.

Then it's either excellent coordination or a little repetition. You know what they say about repetition... repetition, repetition, repetition!

Sorry... now I have to go make an Echo build.

I want to make a "Whisper and Echo" squad and call it "In Space, No One Can Hear You Whisper Whisper Whisper …"

Wedge + Outmaneuver isn't a complete waste against 1 agility ships. Range 3 shots and asteroids. It also allows him to mitigates the effects of EM emitter when firing through a Huge ship. Wedge + Outmaneuver has your opponent forced to take him head on because if he ever flanks you the chances of that pilot's time on the board is over.

Actually it still is, Wedge and Outmaneuver reduce the agility value on the Defender (aka the green stat on the ship) to 0 then Range + Asteroids add green DICE so you automatically roll 2 dice at r3 through an asteroid for example. The defenders defense dice from his agility is 0 but he receives a die from being at range three he does NOT increase his agility by 1 for being at range 3

This distinction only mattered before in very very rare cirumstancess before (when Wedge shot at a ship with the Structural Damage Crit) but now with Outmaneuver increasing the frequency of the negative agility modifier it will become more relevant

What's "wrong" is that you say that Predator is wrong for no darn reason, don't back it up, and then propose another ability for an EPT that is completely different from the original card...

Wedge + Outmaneuver isn't a complete waste against 1 agility ships. Range 3 shots and asteroids. It also allows him to mitigates the effects of EM emitter when firing through a Huge ship. Wedge + Outmaneuver has your opponent forced to take him head on because if he ever flanks you the chances of that pilot's time on the board is over.

Actually it still is, Wedge and Outmaneuver reduce the agility value on the Defender (aka the green stat on the ship) to 0 then Range + Asteroids add green DICE so you automatically roll 2 dice at r3 through an asteroid for example. The defenders defense dice from his agility is 0 but he receives a die from being at range three he does NOT increase his agility by 1 for being at range 3

This distinction only mattered before in very very rare cirumstancess before (when Wedge shot at a ship with the Structural Damage Crit) but now with Outmaneuver increasing the frequency of the negative agility modifier it will become more relevant

Cannot seem to find the source of your Wedge + Structural Damage Cit example. But after making my eyes bleed reading and rereading Section 4 of the Combat Phase, I can agree with R3 and Obstacles would come after the Modify Agility step.

I also hope it gets FAQed since I couldn't find anything on the scenario and how it should play out.

B-Wings, YT-1300s, Y-Wings, and Lambdas. 4/16 ships where Wedge + Outmaneuver is sub-optimal, for the other 75% of the ships he drops them to 0-1 Agility unless the have Stealth Device, R2F2, or Cloak (provided He's angled properly). Which still has huge benefits and I feel outweighs the negatives when matched up against the other 25%.

Regardless, I doubt I'll change your opinion on how you value the EPT and likewise will you change mine.

Also we're straying off topic of the main purpose of this thread which is Predator.

-----

Predator is awesome how it is there's nothing wrong with it.

It will do great against super low PS Swarms and half decent vs higher PS Squads.

It benefits lower attack value ships more than higher attack ships.

If you use it to replace Howlrunner your squadron turns from a "swarm - Protect the Queen-bee" mentality to a "pack" mentality where their ability as a whole can match a swarm's but are also very effective when split into slightly smaller cells.

BSP + Predator x4

Howlrunner + Swarm Tactics

Academy

-or-

GSP + Predator, PTL x4

-or-

RGP + Predator x4

There's definitely better combinations for uses of Predator than the above examples, but the way the card effect works it is very fitting to the name the dev's gave it.

Predators prey on those weaker them, whether they are in a pack or solo, the EPT definitely reflects it.

Wedge + Outmaneuver isn't a complete waste against 1 agility ships. Range 3 shots and asteroids. It also allows him to mitigates the effects of EM emitter when firing through a Huge ship. Wedge + Outmaneuver has your opponent forced to take him head on because if he ever flanks you the chances of that pilot's time on the board is over.

Actually it still is, Wedge and Outmaneuver reduce the agility value on the Defender (aka the green stat on the ship) to 0 then Range + Asteroids add green DICE so you automatically roll 2 dice at r3 through an asteroid for example. The defenders defense dice from his agility is 0 but he receives a die from being at range three he does NOT increase his agility by 1 for being at range 3

This distinction only mattered before in very very rare cirumstancess before (when Wedge shot at a ship with the Structural Damage Crit) but now with Outmaneuver increasing the frequency of the negative agility modifier it will become more relevant

Cannot seem to find the source of your Wedge + Structural Damage Cit example. But after making my eyes bleed reading and rereading Section 4 of the Combat Phase, I can agree with R3 and Obstacles would come after the Modify Agility step.

I also hope it gets FAQed since I couldn't find anything on the scenario and how it should play out.

B-Wings, YT-1300s, Y-Wings, and Lambdas. 4/16 ships where Wedge + Outmaneuver is sub-optimal, for the other 75% of the ships he drops them to 0-1 Agility unless the have Stealth Device, R2F2, or Cloak (provided He's angled properly). Which still has huge benefits and I feel outweighs the negatives when matched up against the other 25%.

Well the Wedge+Structural Damage example was the only way previously to drop a ship beyond 1 agility where the distinction between agility value and green dice mattered.

Personally in my area those 1 agility ships made up almost 60-70% of points spent by rebels, but that is just my local area clouding my perspective (one of the main considerations of the choice between PTL, Predator, and Outmaneuver, I got it back to the topic after all )

Fortunately this game is designed that we can all build our own ships the way we prefer and that we aren't locked into one EPT forever (Unless you are Tycho or Soontir then you might as well have PTL glued to your pilot card) so experimenting with one upgrade or another is worth trying to find what works best for your particular meta