Looking at the Outmaneuver card one quickly realizes this is just Wedge's ability with a limitation. I'm a fan!

Predator, in this regard, is just wrong... Instead of the 2 die re-roll against low level pilots it should be a R1 area affect, like Howlrunner. This change might warrant that the card's cost also be increased to 4 or 5 points. (Black + 4 points = Howlrunner)

This change would greatly effect the current meta. Imagine if a Black Tie could essentially be turned into a second Howlrunner. An X-wing equipped with this could greatly benefit from a few Z-95s flying in close formation!

Predator only affects the ship it's on. Adding an area effect would make Howlrunner less special

Yeah... No.

This would not only make it the only EPT because hey, 3 X-wings in formation and free target locks for everyone. It would also ruin the whole point of predator. It's meant to make low PS pilots a little less good. And it does so very well.

Predator only affects the ship it's on. Adding an area effect would make Howlrunner less special

So, Outmaneuver doesn't make Wedge less special?

I do agree that a limitation (like the one placed on Outmaneuver) should also be a part of Predator. Maybe it could only work against PS 2 or lower.

Predator only affects the ship it's on. Adding an area effect would make Howlrunner less special

So, Outmaneuver doesn't make Wedge less special?

I do agree that a limitation (like the one placed on Outmaneuver) should also be a part of Predator. Maybe it could only work against PS 2 or lower.

Outmanuever requires some pretty talented flying to get right, and only works on specific ships. Mainly A-wings as it makes it more likely they'll hit that tie fighter.

Think about how different Mauler and Backstabber are. There's your difference.

Also, Howlrunner is the best support ship in the game. Passing out her ability to even one other ship is BROKEN.

Predator only affects the ship it's on. Adding an area effect would make Howlrunner less special

So, Outmaneuver doesn't make Wedge less special?

I do agree that a limitation (like the one placed on Outmaneuver) should also be a part of Predator. Maybe it could only work against PS 2 or lower.

No, wedge's works all the time, and still has an EPT slot where another ship would have to use their EPT and only get wedges ability sometimes.

What's with the predator hate? Why does it need a restriction? It costs squad points so it better do something good. If it only worked on ps 2 or lower the upgrade would be useless against most squads... It hasent even been released yet (barring the ones obtained from AoIA). The ability works just fine the way it is.

Yeah... No.
This would not only make it the only EPT because hey, 3 X-wings in formation and free target locks for everyone. It would also ruin the whole point of predator. It's meant to make low PS pilots a little less good. And it does so very well.

THIS is the point of Predator. One reroll increases your hit average significantly, provided you can also focus. Two rerolls against low PS ships will help force them out of the meta. I personally don't think the TIE swarm is going anywhere, but we may see more and more PS4+ Rebel ships.

Predator only affects the ship it's on. Adding an area effect would make Howlrunner less special

So, Outmaneuver doesn't make Wedge less special?

I do agree that a limitation (like the one placed on Outmaneuver) should also be a part of Predator. Maybe it could only work against PS 2 or lower.

There's a ton of PS3 pilots that are still relatively cheap (you can still pump out an XBBX for 94 points for example). Predator was made to let lists like a trio-Interceptor list perform better against the low PS/higher number lists. And it does so very well. Turning into a Howlrunner card would make it the exact opposite, and instead encourage even more low PS/high number lists.

I do admit, Predator has me curious to try a swarm without Howlrunner that still has some of her effects. Specifically, a list I plan to try out:

• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Academy (12)
• Backstabber (16)
• Mauler + Outmaneuver (20)

Concept is fairly simple - run the mini-swarm of BSPs and the AP slowly up the middle, run the other two along the sides as flankers. Whoever my opponent chooses to focus on, make 'em pay with the others.

I think my original point has been mistaken.

Outmaneuver is basically Wedge's ability, but with a condition. (You must be outside of your target's firing arc)

I would like to see this same premise on Predator. Maybe something like:

"When attacking you, and friendly ships at Range 1, may reroll one attack die if the defender's pilot skill is 2 or lower."

This would be a great anti-swarm card and greatly help smaller builds.

I think my original point has been mistaken.

Outmaneuver is basically Wedge's ability, but with a condition. (You must be outside of your target's firing arc)

I would like to see this same premise on Predator. Maybe something like:

"When attacking you, and friendly ships at Range 1, may reroll one attack die if the defender's pilot skill is 2 or lower."

This would be a great anti-swarm card and greatly help smaller builds.

It is 4 points for one ship, vs. 6 points for all ships. Not taking into consideration the extra die vs PS 1-2.

I think my original point has been mistaken.

Outmaneuver is basically Wedge's ability, but with a condition. (You must be outside of your target's firing arc)

I would like to see this same premise on Predator. Maybe something like:

"When attacking you, and friendly ships at Range 1, may reroll one attack die if the defender's pilot skill is 2 or lower."

This would be a great anti-swarm card and greatly help smaller builds.

I don't think any upgrade that limited its use for rerolls against PS1-2 pilots would see any use. If you face a PS3+ list you've wasted your points and that's easily enough to avoid such an upgrade.

Predator is great as it is - finally we have a card that can rival PTL for the cost.

I think my original point has been mistaken.

Outmaneuver is basically Wedge's ability, but with a condition. (You must be outside of your target's firing arc)

I would like to see this same premise on Predator. Maybe something like:

"When attacking you, and friendly ships at Range 1, may reroll one attack die if the defender's pilot skill is 2 or lower."

This would be a great anti-swarm card and greatly help smaller builds.

I don't think any upgrade that limited its use for rerolls against PS1-2 pilots would see any use. If you face a PS3+ list you've wasted your points and that's easily enough to avoid such an upgrade.

It would pigeon hole the EPT yes... just like Determination. There are only 8 pilot cards in the damage deck, but if you draw one... it is at that moment you wish you had invested the 1 point.

The idea I proposed does not "break the game" any more than Determination does. It just makes a formation of fighters better at fighting low level ships. Predators in the wild don't hunt the meanest animals in the pack. They pick on the slow and sick ones that stray behind the heard.

Honestly, my idea offers a counter to a popular tactic. It won't shut a swarm down, but it will help a 3 ship build be more competitive against them. I think FFG would like to see more diversity in list building and more named pilots. The Wave 4 ships almost force you to take named pilots due to the costs of the ships.

Outmanuever on Wedge with and Engine upgrade is absolutely brutal. Im actually starting to think its better than Opportunist, as you dont have to build around it.

I think my original point has been mistaken.

Outmaneuver is basically Wedge's ability, but with a condition. (You must be outside of your target's firing arc)

I would like to see this same premise on Predator. Maybe something like:

"When attacking you, and friendly ships at Range 1, may reroll one attack die if the defender's pilot skill is 2 or lower."

This would be a great anti-swarm card and greatly help smaller builds.

I don't think any upgrade that limited its use for rerolls against PS1-2 pilots would see any use. If you face a PS3+ list you've wasted your points and that's easily enough to avoid such an upgrade.

It would pigeon hole the EPT yes... just like Determination. There are only 8 pilot cards in the damage deck, but if you draw one... it is at that moment you wish you had invested the 1 point.

The idea I proposed does not "break the game" any more than Determination does. It just makes a formation of fighters better at fighting low level ships. Predators in the wild don't hunt the meanest animals in the pack. They pick on the slow and sick ones that stray behind the heard.

Honestly, my idea offers a counter to a popular tactic. It won't shut a swarm down, but it will help a 3 ship build be more competitive against them. I think FFG would like to see more diversity in list building and more named pilots. The Wave 4 ships almost force you to take named pilots due to the costs of the ships.

The better example is Vet Instincts. If I put it on Echo and face a list with no ships over PS 6 I wasted a point and an EPT slot.

But 1 Point is very different from 3 points or more.

Predator is a fantastic card. It's going to see a lot of use. We don't need more cards that help swarms.

Because your EPT. It's best use is getting thrown on Howlrunner or a Black Squadron pilot as a way to make your Tie-Swarm beat their Tie Swarm. Most 3 ship builds need their EPT's for other things.

The damage deck is in every game and Determinatin is filler points.

The better example is Vet Instincts. If I put it on Echo and face a list with no ships over PS 6 I wasted a point and an EPT slot.

But 1 Point is very different from 3 points or more.

Predator is a fantastic card. It's going to see a lot of use. We don't need more cards that help swarms.

Because your EPT. It's best use is getting thrown on Howlrunner or a Black Squadron pilot as a way to make your Tie-Swarm beat their Tie Swarm. Most 3 ship builds need their EPT's for other things.

I disagree, I don't think my proposed Predator helps swarms at all. It only hurts them. Sure, it could help 1 swarm beat another... but a Swarm already has Howlrunner, and cards like Swarm Tactics would be the better choice than Predator.

My version of Predator helps small expensive ship builds against the swarm. This IS NEEDED in the current meta.

I do admit, Predator has me curious to try a swarm without Howlrunner that still has some of her effects. Specifically, a list I plan to try out:

• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Black Squadron + Predator (17)
• Academy (12)
• Backstabber (16)
• Mauler + Outmaneuver (20)

Concept is fairly simple - run the mini-swarm of BSPs and the AP slowly up the middle, run the other two along the sides as flankers. Whoever my opponent chooses to focus on, make 'em pay with the others.

This type of thing is what my Developing List: Apex Predators Thread is all about.

Outmanuever on Wedge with and Engine upgrade is absolutely brutal. Im actually starting to think its better than Opportunist, as you dont have to build around it.

How bout Outmaneuver and R7-T1

The damage deck is in every game and Determinatin is filler points.

The better example is Vet Instincts. If I put it on Echo and face a list with no ships over PS 6 I wasted a point and an EPT slot.

But 1 Point is very different from 3 points or more.

Predator is a fantastic card. It's going to see a lot of use. We don't need more cards that help swarms.

Because your EPT. It's best use is getting thrown on Howlrunner or a Black Squadron pilot as a way to make your Tie-Swarm beat their Tie Swarm. Most 3 ship builds need their EPT's for other things.

I disagree, I don't think my proposed Predator helps swarms at all. It only hurts them. Sure, it could help 1 swarm beat another... but a Swarm already has Howlrunner, and cards like Swarm Tactics would be the better choice than Predator.

My version of Predator helps small expensive ship builds against the swarm. This IS NEEDED in the current meta.

Tie Swarms with 2 Howlrunner rerolls and focus will deal 2 damage per hit over 88% of the time.

Tie Swarms have 10 points to mess with.

Meanwhile a rebel swarm with this has to run a Green Squadron Pilot or named Z-95 to get a cheap EPT, making BBBAA obsolete, as well as XXXZZZ and most of the other interesting rebel swarms, which don't have 10 points of upgrade space ever.

Way to go, you cut the Rebel Swarm out of the game. Hooray.

Here's the thing with your proposed card, Stone. You are putting way to much emphasis on the countering of the cheap pilots. You are also failing to see the secondary benefits. With Jax and all the new stress inducing options, Predator is there so you don't have to relay on your Focus and/or Evade actions. Or so you don't have to get doubled stress if you had Push the Limit. The reroll essentially grants half an action. And even one reroll is good, if you look at Howlrunner or Krassis. Yours is a much, much more limited counter card. And not nearly as good as it currently is.

And trust me, Predator will have an affect on the PS bid. In the Predator and Phantom environment, those PS 4 pilots are looking a tad better.

I think my original point has been mistaken.

Outmaneuver is basically Wedge's ability, but with a condition. (You must be outside of your target's firing arc)

I would like to see this same premise on Predator. Maybe something like:

"When attacking you, and friendly ships at Range 1, may reroll one attack die if the defender's pilot skill is 2 or lower."

This would be a great anti-swarm card and greatly help smaller builds.

On the contrary, this way the card is far more beneficial for swarm builds. Smaller ship builds tend to scatter a lot more (to prevent AoE and focus fire jousts or try to force the enemy to split up) but this card would force them to stay together. A tactic which benefits swarms far more.

How bout Outmaneuver and R7-T1

That would be a cool combo.

You are also missing that it works with secondaries. Missiles can reroll dice with it. Same with torpedoes. Also it still works through stress. Predator more than makes up for its cost. Lots of good choices for it. Excellent card as is.

After reading the post I get the feeling most the hate is coming from the swarmies. I cant wait to unleash Chewy and Lando with predator upon them.