So, as we all know, one of the default options for sarting rebel equipment is Ywings- one per two players. As fighters, Ywings are weak- poor maneuverability and weak shields. But where the Ywing stands out is it's two-seat varient, becoming not a snubfighter, but very small starship.

When it comes to space combat, the two seat Y wing gets three sets of actions to the tie fighter's 1 action. (after all, lets not forget the validant astromech- with int 2 and astrogate 3, comoputers 3 and mechanics 2, it should be plotting courses through terrain, managing your deflector shields, repairing your system strain, or jamming missiles)

The pilot is of course the pilot, but the multiseat nature of the craft is telling. For while a Tie must choose between Siezing the Advantage and shooting, a Y wing can attempt to Sieze the Advantage, Evade, and let the gunner fire the torpedos or ion cannons from the back seat. And if the opposing tie chooses to attack instead of siezing the advantage back, the pilot can engage with his own weaponry while continuing to evade fire.

And the gunner position is one of the most important of all- because just becuse you CAN fire a gun doesnt mean you have to. The gunner can do anything an astromech can, and more- use leadership for fire discipline, copilot for tricky maneuvers, or do manual repairs, in an emergency. And can still fire a gun, if a target is available.

So dont rush to "upgrade" to Awings that are little more than Intercepters with shields. Being able to do more each round is what makes the Y wing strong- stronger than it's stats would indicate.

Fighters with multiple crew are indeed superior.

As a side note, the Preybird (from Dangerous Covenants ) has a pilot and gunner complement. It does not, however, have an astromech.

For this exact reason, when my players in a SAGA Star Wars game found an old ARC-170 and rebuilt it, they kicked ass. Pilot, Co-Pilot, Gunner, Astromech, all in an enlarged "snub-bomber". Each of those positions were able to do something beneficial each round...x4.

During some of the starship test sessions I did a while back, I and my friends noted that having two PCs in a starfighter, even if one's an astromech, tends to make that starfighter a good deal more potent.

First off, the person that's not piloting can spend a maneuver to assist the pilot, providing a free boost die to any checks they might need to make. If there's a PC astromech in a starfighter's astromech socket, this is a darn good idea since astromechs typically don't have access to a vehicle's weapons and don't have much else they can do with that free maneuver.

In the case of starfighters with a pilot and gunner, the pilot can spend their Action to Gain the Advantage, and allow the gunner to simply wait until after the pilot's turn to reap the benefits of a successful use of GtA.

Depends on how many enemies the GM uses though, surely.

If the GM bases the numbers on players rather than ships does the advantage still stack up?

Depends on how many enemies the GM uses though, surely.

If the GM bases the numbers on players rather than ships does the advantage still stack up?

I believe so, because every vehical has an action overhead cost. If it attempts to Sieze (back) the Advantage, it cant fire, and without siezing, it cant evade without sufering for it.

Consider 4 tie intercepters vs 2 Xwings with heroic astromechs. Ties move in, fire, and evade, doing heavy (but not critical) damage to one Xwing. Xwing one has an Ace Gunner astromech, who can fire the torpedos (with perhaps a couple black dice for having to hack the Xwing targeting computer) after the pilot Siezes the Advantage and evades. Scratch one squint. Xwing 2 has a Bounty Hunter Gageteer (or an engineer anything) astromech, who boosts and angles the deflector shields, raising the Xwing' shields in front to 3, as the pilot uses Stay on Target and fires lasers.

Ehhhhh...

I dunno, that seems a little sketchy to me. Astromech PCs assisting in the defense and maintenance of the fighter, allowing the pilot to handle piloting and survive long enough to kill the Interceptors, I can handle. Astromech PCs actually overriding the pilot's controls to lock and fire missiles, I cannot. I understand the rules might allow it, but as a GM I would call bullcrap immediately.

Anyway, 4 NPC Interceptors vs 2 PC X-Wings shouldn't even be a contest. Realistically, the X-Wings should waste two on the head to head pass, and evade long enough after that to scratch each other's backs. TIEs aren't known for their sturdiness, and speed isn't everything, especially if those Astromech PCs are doing their job and angling shields, repairing damage, and allocating power.

"Calling bullcrap" is reflected in the black dice penalty.

Depends on how many enemies the GM uses though, surely.

If the GM bases the numbers on players rather than ships does the advantage still stack up?

Realistically speaking, any GM could easily decimate a play group. Just include enough enemies, or make the enemies powerful enough.

Having a Y-Wing with 3 players is a bit like having a minion group with 3 actions. They're really powerful and can easily aid the other, but they are essentially sharing one big pool of "hit points." So they might be a bit easier to take down than, say, 3 separate players in X-Wings Or 3 separate players in Y-Wings for that matter.

Of course - but equally, if the players choose to double up in Y-wings, is the GM always required to reduce the opposition likewise?

I've been running an out-and-out naval game and I've moved to giving players a ship each so I can keep the enemy numbers plausible without using truck loads of NPCs.

On a related subject, what actions/maneuvers do y'all think are appropriate for NPC astromechs to be able to take?

Of course - but equally, if the players choose to double up in Y-wings, is the GM always required to reduce the opposition likewise?

Suppose it depends on the players involved. If Agility is a big deal for them, they will all have decent attack rolls and pilot checks. And talents can be a big factor too. I wouldn't say it matters too much; however, I'd think 3 players in 3 Y-Wings would have an easier go than 3 players in 1 Y-Wing. With 2 players, it's a toss up whether they'd fair better in separate Y-Wings or sharing a ride.

However, the nice things (like the OP pointed out) about Y-Wings is that you can crowd them with PCs and each PC can shine at his given task...piloting, gunnery, mechanics, computers, what have ya.

So yeah...really depends on the dynamics of your table. As you pretty much evidenced just below!

I've been running an out-and-out naval game and I've moved to giving players a ship each so I can keep the enemy numbers plausible without using truck loads of NPCs.

The Mass Combat rules and Squadron rules will be nice when they come out, I think Don't forget the minions rule—somewhere in the Starships chapter of EotE core rulebook they suggest using the minion rule for enemy starships, so basically a group of ships that share a common HTT and Soak value (any System Strain is suffered as Hull Trauma). You can send a group of 6 minion TIE fighters against 2 PCs this way and they won't turn out too worse for the wear.

On a related subject, what actions/maneuvers do y'all think are appropriate for NPC astromechs to be able to take?

For actions: Damage Control, combat checks as appropriate (if the gun can be controlled from a computer system), and any of the "Additional Starship and Vehicle Actions" on page 170 of the Beta (Table 7-7) are great. Manual Repairs might be a little weird, but if your astromech is build like a loadlifter, it might be smart!

For maneuvers, I believe the 'mech will be generally limited to angling the deflector shields, aiming if he's got control of a weapon, and assisting anyone else in the fighter.

On a related subject, what actions/maneuvers do y'all think are appropriate for NPC astromechs to be able to take?

In-flight repair, navigational aid, and in a stretch basic piloting. Droids generally speaking do not have the skill and instincts of a living pilot.

Although R2-D2 didn't always follow this rule most droids have life preservation programming. I don't see an astromech being able to fire weapons and take lives. Not unless they were sliced to override their protection programming.

An NPC Astromech has 2 Int, 3 computers and astrogation, and 2 Mechanics and piloting/space.

This gives it a green and yellow to copilot, two yellows to repair and boost shields, and two yellows and a green to jam comunications and torps or plot courses through terrain. It also means that it only is rolling 1 green for gunnery, even if you dont give it black dice.

A PC astromech, on the other hand, should be able to do whatever the character is good at. Possibly with black dce if the ship isnt set up for what you want to do (and havint modified it to allow what you want yet)

A PC astromech, on the other hand, should be able to do whatever the character is good at. Possibly with black dce if the ship isnt set up for what you want to do (and havint modified it to allow what you want yet)

It's not so much a question of what can the astromech do, it's a question of what can be done from the astromech socket. I wouldn't let weapons be fired from the socket anymore than I would allow weapons to be fired from one of the electronics bays on the Falcon (or from the refresher if you want to be absurd).

On a related subject, what actions/maneuvers do y'all think are appropriate for NPC astromechs to be able to take?

I would also consider if it is an NPC astromech vs a PC astromech. Obviously an NPC astromech cannot advance its characteristics or skills by of the RAW, so they do have one limitation. Aside of that that, I wouldn't want to allow NPC astromechs to outshine their PC counterparts, so I might consider certain limitations.

That is one thing that always bugged me about Gain The Advantage - in an A-wing or Interceptor, I can Gain The Advantage very easily....but since it only lasts a round, I can't do anything with it!

Whereas a two-seater fighter can. I agree that in a stock fighter the astromech isn't going to be either flying or firing torpedoes, but rebels tend to be big on customising their ships, and if you've got a PC droid, you can assume that a pilot might trust his droid enough to let him fly combat - and if so, the ship would probably be wired for it.

Hell, Tycho (I think?) once believed he'd been shot down by his own R2 unit...

Yeah, with a stock/standard issue starfighter and a generic NPC astromech, I would allow the droid to fire weapons from its socket. But with a bit of personalization, it's not a stretch that a pilot could give his/her astromech a little more free reign with things like a computer-controlled gun turret or missile launchers. Just use the scomp link. Ta-da.

So what should the mechanics check be, to install a gunnery startion in the 'fresher?

So what should the mechanics check be, to install a gunnery startion in the 'fresher?

For a turret, or just for a bomb chute?

So what should the mechanics check be, to install a gunnery startion in the 'fresher?

Oh man, I now have the image of Han Solo swinging around in the turret shooting TIE Fighters.... on the can.

I wonder if they shouldn't change how Astromechs are handled; instead of it's own action, make it so it gives the pilot an extra manoeuvre or action (or remove the fatigue for the extra action) to represent the general helping out.