Ok, so Imdaar's over now, everyone has their ships and everyone has seen the Phantom in action. It seems to be a quite capable killing machine, the ultimate glass cannon. Thus far most lists I see have been focused on building around one of the two named pilots, and for good reason: both are extremely good pilots with very nice defensive bonuses (one is a bonus in survivability, the other in maneuverability) to interact with their natural offensive capabilities.

But is there something we have all been missing?

For 28 points, I introduce to you: Sigma + Hull upgrade. 5 points more than Tarn Mison for the same PS, an extra attack dice, no special pilot abilities, and with the almighty 1 turn. X-wings don't cloak, and they still do alright. Is it expensive? Maybe. Worth it? Time will tell.

Now, we have this weapon in our hands. What else could we add to make it better? The obvious choice would be RecSpec. Two focuses a turn will make you last quite a bit longer than a single X-wing (as Biggs players know, that extra focus could go a long way). Rebel Captive might be useful, as with this build it will not be cloaking as often and will be more likely to end up in arc. Merc Copilot is a cheap possibility, which its low PS helps it do more with. I guess FCS is a possibility, albeit not quite as useful as defensive upgrades. Advanced Sensors is never a bad idea.

Alright, now the real question: What lists can we run with it?

Sigma + HU + RecSpec

Howlrunner (+3 points defense of your choice)

4x AP

A new swarm. Six ships all flying in unison. Two priority targets. You'll probably never even use cloak

3x Shadow + RecSpec + HU

Like a triple Firespray, only less survivable, harder hitting, and PS 5. They can be run independently of each other

These are just some ideas I have had on "unorthodox" Phantom flying (though no such thing really exists as the Phantom hasn't even been released yet). Please feel free to suggest anything I may have missed or overlooked, where I am wrong, etc.

I tried out whisper and echo in separate lists with soontir and turr as wingmates on vassal. Each game the phantom carried the whole team on it's back, they are amazing. I used veteran instincts on the phantom both times, and rebel captive, which was useful but I defiantly think that you don't want merc copilot, when a phantom shoots it should always be up close and personal, otherwise be cloaked. And Advanced cloaking device worked wonders as well, it saved my butt against a ton of attacks. One game I was able to take out han, and the other I took down two ion turret y wings, which by the way are enemy number 1 for phantoms in my opinion, if you get ioned while cloaked you lose an attack and your unpredictability.

*quietly shoves the following list under the door*

4x Sigma Squad Pilot

16 Attack dice? 20 at Range 1? With focus, that's a falcon dead, reliably. Sure they die easy if you're crazy enough to try a frontal assault, but you want to try it. You know you do.

Why would you use hull upgrade when you can use the Stygium? The Stygium saves you one damage the very first time you use it, and more if you aren't killed the first turn you are shot at, for 1 less point. It is significantly better than hull.

But is there something we have all been missing?

Probably, but Hull Upgrade isn't it. What I think you're missing is the opportunity cost of running Hull Upgrade (which prevents 1 damage) over Stygium Particle Accelerator (which prevents 1 damage every turn you either cloak or decloak, which should mean every turn). And the Accelerator is a point cheaper, too.

It's like asking if you'd rather run a Hull Upgrade or C-3PO on your YT-1300. It's not that the Hull Upgrade is bad in a vacuum, it's just that when placed in context it's far worse than the other options.

But is there something we have all been missing?

Probably, but Hull Upgrade isn't it. What I think you're missing is the opportunity cost of running Hull Upgrade (which prevents 1 damage) over Stygium Particle Accelerator (which prevents 1 damage every turn you either cloak or decloak, which should mean every turn). And the Accelerator is a point cheaper, too.It's like asking if you'd rather run a Hull Upgrade or C-3PO on your YT-1300. It's not that the Hull Upgrade is bad in a vacuum, it's just that when placed in context it's far worse than the other options.

*quietly shoves the following list under the door*

4x Sigma Squad Pilot

16 Attack dice? 20 at Range 1? With focus, that's a falcon dead, reliably. Sure they die easy if you're crazy enough to try a frontal assault, but you want to try it. You know you do.

I can see cloakless Phantom's being pretty beastly. But like most ships, I think they need to be run in a balnced group. Swarm lists of imbalanced ships(Too fragile versus firepower, or too tough versus firepower) are likely to have issues. X-Wings and B-Wings and TIs work in swarm lists because they have a good bulk/firepower balance, while Dual Falcons and Firesprays stray on the too bulky without enough firepower side of things, and Interceptors are too fragile for their offense.

I can see running them like a hyper-gunned X-Wing. But considering what a 35 Point Echo and 37 point Whisper can do, there is potential lost.

I was definitely thinking of running thay same swarm, maybe SPA, maybe just upping to the PS 5. At the least, cloaking can be used to get you into a great position, and from there you likely won't need to cloak much, as my playtesting has shown. I think ill go with SPA + Intelligence Agent for 28pts on the Sigma. Im not sure if ill never cloak and run it with the Swarm directly, but I might put it Range 3 behind the swarm while the Ties are Range 1.

I like the Hull idea. I mean, you're right, stats similar to an X Wing, just with the cost of Wedge. SPA and cloaking is just more fun, and quite useful the turns you want to run away from the fight.

But is there something we have all been missing?

Probably, but Hull Upgrade isn't it. What I think you're missing is the opportunity cost of running Hull Upgrade (which prevents 1 damage) over Stygium Particle Accelerator (which prevents 1 damage every turn you either cloak or decloak, which should mean every turn). And the Accelerator is a point cheaper, too.It's like asking if you'd rather run a Hull Upgrade or C-3PO on your YT-1300. It's not that the Hull Upgrade is bad in a vacuum, it's just that when placed in context it's far worse than the other options.

But SPA REQUIRES that you cloak/decloak to get those advantages. It also means that my shooting time will be cut in half. Not that SPA is bad in any way, just making an observation.

Yeah, but you're likely to cloak at least once (in the opening round), and accordingly you'll decloak at least once. So it'll typically be at least as effective as a Hull Upgrade, and a point cheaper.

I'm liking the idea of a single Sigma (maybe multiples) with Adv Sen and Engine just to get behind the opponent early. Not bad at all for 32 points in my book.

Hard to stop a Decloak 2 move, Boost, 4 K-Turn. Now you have a real problem behind you and the main force in front.

Looking fwd to using the models and trying things apart from the obvious Echo awesome-sauce.

I almost made a thread about this the other day. I had a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE experience flying the phantom my first time at Imdaar. I"m sure they are awesome once you master it but as of right now I'm not eager to try again.

I do however think they could be an awesome assault fighter without using the cloak at all, or very rarely. Could kind of be used as an imperial biggs, as most people would gun for a bare sigma at 25 points.

I know a lot of people want to do HLC's on the defenders, but consider this:

Delta Defender + HLC = 37 points

Shadow Phantom + HU + Recon + Sensor Jammer = 37 points

For the same cost you both get 4 attack dice (but phantom gets 5 at range 1). Defender has 1 more hit point and 1 higher agility, however the phantom has 4 higher PS, and you could argue the recon specialist and sensor jammer are just as good as the extra hit point and agility value on the defender.

I can see cloakless Phantom's being pretty beastly. But like most ships, I think they need to be run in a balnced group. Swarm lists of imbalanced ships(Too fragile versus firepower, or too tough versus firepower) are likely to have issues. X-Wings and B-Wings and TIs work in swarm lists because they have a good bulk/firepower balance, while Dual Falcons and Firesprays stray on the too bulky without enough firepower side of things, and Interceptors are too fragile for their offense.

I just racked up two more wins for my interceptor list, making it 39-4 in store tournaments, regionals and friendlies (take out friendlies at is actually at 19-2) and that is with cold dice on many occasion against dual falcon/Ion cannon(turrets) lists. A list operates as good as its owner (again outside of Advances...I tried I really did). Take what you want and try it out, learn it and you will do quite well.

Back to the subject, I am looking forward to running:

excuse me guys.

Shadow Squad
Shadow Squad
Shadow Squad
Howlrunner + DrawTheirFire

enjoy your 3x 4 dice attacks + focus + howl reroll at PS5

counter-deploy directly in front of your opponent in your standard howlrunner block, go forward 2 and immediately cloak the entire team. On the next turn, have everybody decloak forward 2 into forward 2 maneuver, while howlrunner does forward 5. If lucky, you may even get off a few range 1 shots with 5 attack dice. This cloaking maneuver is pretty much for fun only / to throw off your opponent

After the exchange, some of your phantoms WILL die, but so would about half of your opponent's squad. Now, you can choose whether you want to fly them like TIEs to mop up the survivours, or you can cloak them and have them do phantom stuff

I think Navigator might be one of the best upgrades to put on a Phantom, especially Echo.

I think Navigator might be one of the best upgrades to put on a Phantom, especially Echo.

Agreed.

For 37 points I'd rather have a tricky Whisper though,

Adv. Cloak and VI for PS 9.

My LGS still hasn't run Imdaar yet, I'm dying to have a go!

Decoy Vader with an Engine Upgrade, two sigma's with FCS, IA and ACD.

Vader bait and switches with the Phantom most in need to fire and cloak first.

I got to the finals at my Imdar, and I stupidly chose to play Rebels. I got absolutely wrecked by ONLY the Phantom from my opponent's list. He also had the 30 point defender and the 22 point interceptor with Predator, meaning that less than 50 points of his squad killed 100 of mine. Whisper, Gunner, FCS, Advanced Cloaking, and Veteran Instincts. I had Corran at PS 10 through VI (expecting a VI Phantom) but still couldn't touch him. Decloak for a free 2-speed boost/barrel roll, barrel roll if you need it, evade if you dont, shoot, miss and get a target lock, hit and get a focus and a target lock, and then cloak after the shot. So many free actions on that thing...

Aye, stress is key to shutting them Down.

Aye, stress is key to shutting them Down.

and ions

It seems to me that Advanced Cloaking Device most benefits high-Pilot-Skill Phantoms, because it allows them to fire and re-cloak before anyone can shoot back (provided the Phantom has someone on whom to fire). So Adv. Cloaking Device pairs especially well with Veteran Instincts.

The Stygium Particle Accelerator seems most to benefit low-Pilot-Skill Phantoms, because the free evade as it de-cloaks helps to preserve the ship until it gets a chance to fire. However, I suppose de-cloaking to get an evade token, and then re-cloaking as your action to get another free evade token probably violates the no-double action rule. Does anyone know for sure? I'd love pulling that stunt if it's legal.

It seems to me that Advanced Cloaking Device most benefits high-Pilot-Skill Phantoms, because it allows them to fire and re-cloak before anyone can shoot back (provided the Phantom has someone on whom to fire). So Adv. Cloaking Device pairs especially well with Veteran Instincts.

The Stygium Particle Accelerator seems most to benefit low-Pilot-Skill Phantoms, because the free evade as it de-cloaks helps to preserve the ship until it gets a chance to fire. However, I suppose de-cloaking to get an evade token, and then re-cloaking as your action to get another free evade token probably violates the no-double action rule. Does anyone know for sure? I'd love pulling that stunt if it's legal.

It is a free Evade action so it's only the one.

However, you could theoretically use PtL off of that when you Decloak, do a green maneuver, clear the stress, and do a regular action in its regular spot.

I got to the finals at my Imdar, and I stupidly chose to play Rebels. I got absolutely wrecked by ONLY the Phantom from my opponent's list. He also had the 30 point defender and the 22 point interceptor with Predator, meaning that less than 50 points of his squad killed 100 of mine. Whisper, Gunner, FCS, Advanced Cloaking, and Veteran Instincts. I had Corran at PS 10 through VI (expecting a VI Phantom) but still couldn't touch him. Decloak for a free 2-speed boost/barrel roll, barrel roll if you need it, evade if you dont, shoot, miss and get a target lock, hit and get a focus and a target lock, and then cloak after the shot. So many free actions on that thing...

How often did Gunner kick in on a FCS Phantom? I would think that throwing 4 or 5 die, Gunner wouldn't be worthwhile. How often are you going to miss?

I got to the finals at my Imdar, and I stupidly chose to play Rebels. I got absolutely wrecked by ONLY the Phantom from my opponent's list. He also had the 30 point defender and the 22 point interceptor with Predator, meaning that less than 50 points of his squad killed 100 of mine. Whisper, Gunner, FCS, Advanced Cloaking, and Veteran Instincts. I had Corran at PS 10 through VI (expecting a VI Phantom) but still couldn't touch him. Decloak for a free 2-speed boost/barrel roll, barrel roll if you need it, evade if you dont, shoot, miss and get a target lock, hit and get a focus and a target lock, and then cloak after the shot. So many free actions on that thing...

How often did Gunner kick in on a FCS Phantom? I would think that throwing 4 or 5 die, Gunner wouldn't be worthwhile. How often are you going to miss?

He only used it twice in the 7 shots he threw down, but when he did use it, he all of a sudden had a target lock on me too, making it basically a buzzsaw pahntom. I agree it's points that could probably have been spent better elsewhere.

Also, it was stressed for 3 of those turns, as the first round of combat he decloaked to move right in front of my guys and then K-turned behind them as his maneuver. The only thing the stress stopped him from doing was the free re-cloak. The focus token and target lock are not actions, he gets those for free.

My ideal phantom is Echo with Veteran Instincts, an Engine Upgrade, Advanced Sensors, and an Intelligence Agent. This one ship becomes a master hunter, as it can boost then 2-bank to move roughly 3 forward and slightly sideways, then K-turn another 4. It moves after everything PS 7 and below, and with negative initiative, after PS 8 as well, and has an Intel Agent for the odd PS 9-10 guy he has to try to take down.