As for the EU, I read a couple of the Rogue Squadron books (I should read or at least listen to that whole series again) and liked those ones.

But even the Thrawn series was a yawn (a blue guy? Really? When the entire Imperial force was shown to be human(like) in the OT?) - the 'humanicentric' thing was a subtle point about their doctrine in the OT. I don't remember the stories well enough to remember if they explained it away, but coming from the movies, I couldn't buy it for a minute.

As for the rest (except for the X-Wing and TIE video games - they were a quasi-religion for me for quite some time), I'm ignorant of it and don't feel the least bit sorry...

Thrawn being an alien was meant to establish his credentials as a badass.

Not in the Empire. If he wasn't a bad-ass Sith, he never would have achieved a prominent position in the Imperial hierarchy or even gotten into the Academy (just going by the subtle, unspoken, quasi-nazi Imperial doctrine as shown in the OT). The entire premise of the book broke SW-Universe 'canon' (as shown in the films), at least for me.

And yes, I fully realize this is a fictional universe, but consistency matters.

George Lucas' Star Wars consists of only of one story arc. The rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Nothing else ever mattered to him. All the other characters are there for that story. We may love Han or Lando or Chewie or whoever but Lucas never cared. If Lucas needed to abide by what was written in the EU then we would never have had an EU.

And yet he gave us Hayden Christensen and the pre-quals.

Forget live-and-let-live...get a rope!

;p

The word is prequel.

Thank you, I knew none of those looked right...

As for the EU, I read a couple of the Rogue Squadron books (I should read or at least listen to that whole series again) and liked those ones.

But even the Thrawn series was a yawn (a blue guy? Really? When the entire Imperial force was shown to be human(like) in the OT?) - the 'humanicentric' thing was a subtle point about their doctrine in the OT. I don't remember the stories well enough to remember if they explained it away, but coming from the movies, I couldn't buy it for a minute.

As for the rest (except for the X-Wing and TIE video games - they were a quasi-religion for me for quite some time), I'm ignorant of it and don't feel the least bit sorry...

Thrawn being an alien was meant to establish his credentials as a badass.

Not in the Empire. If he wasn't a bad-ass Sith, he never would have achieved a prominent position in the Imperial hierarchy or even gotten into the Academy (just going by the subtle, unspoken, quasi-nazi Imperial doctrine as shown in the OT). The entire premise of the book broke SW-Universe 'canon' (as shown in the films), at least for me.

And yes, I fully realize this is a fictional universe, but consistency matters.

Everybody has their one thing that breaks the universe for them, so I get it. For me it was Jacen Solo as a Sith and Abeloth - I didn't understand it all and the force just became too powerful. Why fight wars when a Jedi/Sith can just destroy a ship with his thoughts?

Isn't it part of Thrawn's story that he was one of the few nonhumans to gain a high rank in the Imperial forces due to his sheer ability? As I recall he was personally approved by Palpatine himself due to his proven command abilities.

It's not like there was suddenly a high ranking alien officer in the imperial navy without explanation or reason. By addressing the fact that Thrawn was a special case it "maintains consistency"

As for the EU, I read a couple of the Rogue Squadron books (I should read or at least listen to that whole series again) and liked those ones.

But even the Thrawn series was a yawn (a blue guy? Really? When the entire Imperial force was shown to be human(like) in the OT?) - the 'humanicentric' thing was a subtle point about their doctrine in the OT. I don't remember the stories well enough to remember if they explained it away, but coming from the movies, I couldn't buy it for a minute.

As for the rest (except for the X-Wing and TIE video games - they were a quasi-religion for me for quite some time), I'm ignorant of it and don't feel the least bit sorry...

Thrawn being an alien was meant to establish his credentials as a badass.

Not in the Empire. If he wasn't a bad-ass Sith, he never would have achieved a prominent position in the Imperial hierarchy or even gotten into the Academy (just going by the subtle, unspoken, quasi-nazi Imperial doctrine as shown in the OT). The entire premise of the book broke SW-Universe 'canon' (as shown in the films), at least for me.

And yes, I fully realize this is a fictional universe, but consistency matters.

Thrawn also isn't a Sith, by the way.

Oh, I know, I was just trying to cover the only explanation that could have exempted him from the 'standard racial requirement' for joining he Empire.

Isn't it part of Thrawn's story that he was one of the few nonhumans to gain a high rank in the Imperial forces due to his sheer ability? As I recall he was personally approved by Palpatine himself due to his proven command abilities.

It's not like there was suddenly a high ranking alien officer in the imperial navy without explanation or reason. By addressing the fact that Thrawn was a special case it "maintains consistency"

Would have been easier (for me) to swallow if there had been precedent set in the 'official' movies. The racial thing was both subtle and obvious (is that even possible?) in the OT.

Isn't it part of Thrawn's story that he was one of the few nonhumans to gain a high rank in the Imperial forces due to his sheer ability? As I recall he was personally approved by Palpatine himself due to his proven command abilities.

It's not like there was suddenly a high ranking alien officer in the imperial navy without explanation or reason. By addressing the fact that Thrawn was a special case it "maintains consistency"

Would have been easier (for me) to swallow if there had been precedent set in the 'official' movies. The racial thing was both subtle and obvious (is that even possible?) in the OT.

Isn't it part of Thrawn's story that he was one of the few nonhumans to gain a high rank in the Imperial forces due to his sheer ability?

Yes, and the books were constantly emphasizing the point, with characters refusing to believe that he was what he said he was because of his species, with comments about how it took a long time for his subordinates to get used to an alien in command.

My personal feeling is that the technology gave Lucas too much freedom when doing Episodes I-III. If he hadn't had the technological limitations he had back in '77, my guess is that Star Wars would have sucked. From what I've read, Lucas has a very visual imagination, and he wasn't able to put nearly as much as he wanted into Episode IV. I think he gave us just a peek, and if we could see everything, like we did in '99, it wouldn't have had nearly the same appeal.

Isn't it part of Thrawn's story that he was one of the few nonhumans to gain a high rank in the Imperial forces due to his sheer ability? As I recall he was personally approved by Palpatine himself due to his proven command abilities.

It's not like there was suddenly a high ranking alien officer in the imperial navy without explanation or reason. By addressing the fact that Thrawn was a special case it "maintains consistency"

Would have been easier (for me) to swallow if there had been precedent set in the 'official' movies. The racial thing was both subtle and obvious (is that even possible?) in the OT.

Again, it made him badass. Not every officer had to go through the academy. Maybe he was an officer on a planet that added to the Empire peacefully. His race was lampshaded so well as an exception to the rule that choosing to disbelieve it shows more about your looking for things to dislike than about your interest in reading the books or their quality. If they hadn't explained it it would be bad writing. But they did, making it character development. And good character development at that.

I don't mean to dis Thrawn for anyone that enjoyed those stories. I know they were best sellers. I just wanted to illustrate that even early EU broke 'canon' (italics)for me(/italics).

As for fleshed out back story, I remember the ST:TNG story arc where the parasites were infiltrating high-ranking Star Fleet. It was a fully fleshed out back story, but was still cheesy to me...

Fully explained or fleshed out or not, Thrawn didn't feel Star Wars (italics)to me(/italics).

Same goes for those who liked Ep. I-III. I don't get it, I don't pretend to, I have no desire to. They see something I don't. Lucky them. Seriously.

TL;DR: I'm no better or worse than anyone else. But like them, I like what I like and am turned off by what I don't. If it claims to be part of a universe I fell in love with and made my own but doesn't then fit my concept of that universe, it feels like a pale rip-off. I'm sure there are as many versions of that sentiment as there are Star Wars fans.

Funniest part about all this is that the EU that I liked best were the 'pre-EU' stories, the Han Solo ones (though they could get sort of silly and 'non-StarWarsy' - IMHO!) and Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

It's just particularly closed minded. I mean, I can see feeling it was odd. But Zahn bent over backwards to make sure that was Ok, it was supposed to feel odd. And to explain it. He wrote it well enough where I cannot take your complaints seriously. It takes such a particular kind of picky to say, well the author acknowledged and explained why this guy is where he is, but its so clearly impossible anyway that the book is unreadable because of it. It's like saying Superman can't have superpowers. It's refusing to take the work at its own level. I can't help but feeling like you need to nitpick less. Because nitpicking like that goes beyond even the quality of the work.

If Thrawn had been human he wouldn't have been so menacing. He had to be twice the commander Tarkin was to hit the rank of Admiral. It made him the threat he was, and made being that threat acceptable. It was a brilliant piece of writing, making him an alien.

Basically. I feel sorry for your lack of ability to enjoy good writing for being good writing.

Ok, let's try it this way...

President Lincoln had a particularly bright slave. He recognized this person's potential so he freed him and sent him to be Admiral of our privateers in the Caribbean. The Civil War broke out. The South actually won, and after that this freed-slave-turned-Admiral returned to the states to continue the struggle.

Might make for a good action adventure (depending on writing), but if told the story, could you plausibly believe it as American history?

Don't pity me, I just have different ideas of what universe was established by the Original Trilogy than you do (which is fine) and what is plausible in that universe.

Edit to add: I'm not judging Thrawn by quality of writing, but whether it feels 'Star Wars' to me.

As a Sci-Fi story, the writing is very good. Star Wars? I don't feel it.

Ok, let's try it this way...

President Lincoln had a particularly bright slave. He recognized this person's potential so he freed him and sent him to be Admiral of our privateers in the Caribbean. The Civil War broke out. The South actually won, and after that this freed-slave-turned-Admiral returned to the states to continue the struggle.

Might make for a good action adventure (depending on writing), but if told the story, could you plausibly believe it as American history?

Don't pity me, I just have different ideas of what universe was established by the Original Trilogy than you do (which is fine) and what is plausible in that universe.

I actually find it quite similar to the (real fact) of Adolf Hitler shielding certain Jews from the concentration camps because of their contributions and valor during the First World War.

Seriously guys. 30 years isn't that long. The US military uses several combat aircraft well over 30 years old...

An X-Wing with minor upgrades to avionics and equipment is quite fitting.

The prequals certainly aren't the cultural icons the original films are.

That has nothing to do with George's "responsibility" to the fanbase, as if there is such a thing. The only thing an artist owes the fans is their best effort, and what ever creative item they wish to create, be it a story, or music or art.

The only say the fan base has on what a artist does, is their choice to support the artist by buying the album, seeing the movie, buying the book, or what ever other method there is.

besides, there is usually also the problem that there isn't one homogeneous fanbase and trying to please all views often enough ends up as pleasing no one and producing a jumbled mess, loosing the style that won them their fanbase in the first place.

So I prefer authors/artists to do their thing, tell the stories they want even if it produces the odd fan reaction, most of the fans will appreciate the end product even if its unexpected in some ways as long its quality is right.

on odd fan reactions, once I read an Amazon comment that down voted a new novel of Robert Jordan, just because it wasn't the one in the consecutive order he wanted, not because of its actual content....

The prequals certainly aren't the cultural icons the original films are.

That has nothing to do with George's "responsibility" to the fanbase, as if there is such a thing. The only thing an artist owes the fans is their best effort, and what ever creative item they wish to create, be it a story, or music or art.

The only say the fan base has on what a artist does, is their choice to support the artist by buying the album, seeing the movie, buying the book, or what ever other method there is.

besides, there is usually also the problem that there isn't one homogeneous fanbase and trying to please all views often enough ends up as pleasing no one and producing a jumbled mess, loosing the style that won them their fanbase in the first place.

So I prefer authors/artists to do their thing, tell the stories they want even if it produces the odd fan reaction, most of the fans will appreciate the end product even if its unexpected in some ways as long its quality is right.

on odd fan reactions, once I read an Amazon comment that down voted a new novel of Robert Jordan, just because it wasn't the one in the consecutive order he wanted, not because of its actual content....

Except he didn't try to please anybody. He made several very mediocre films with stories even Children know don't hold together well. I'm not sayin please the fans. I'm saying respect them and their collective vision of your universe. Look at things like Boba Fett's backstory, and the EU's portrayal of the force rather than just make up a new explanation. It's not that hard, and shows you care about them. Don't suddenly portray the Jedi as a bunch of corrupt assholes and add prophecies. Don't expect us to believe Obi wan actually knew who r2 and C3PO were when he never acknowledged it. Etcetera.

Look at things like Boba Fett's backstory,

Fett is George's character, the fact that Fett fanboys turned him into some sort of superman doesn't mean that George needs to abide by what they did to his character. To this day I don't get the Fett love, I mean he didn't do anything special that warrants the love, he followed Han to Bespin, then played FedEx, then got ate.

Don't suddenly portray the Jedi as a bunch of corrupt assholes and add prophecies. Don't expect us to believe Obi wan actually knew who r2 and C3PO were when he never acknowledged it. Etcetera.

None of that has anything to do with respect of the fanbase, that's all just sloppy writing.

Look at things like Boba Fett's backstory,

Fett is George's character, the fact that Fett fanboys turned him into some sort of superman doesn't mean that George needs to abide by what they did to his character. To this day I don't get the Fett love, I mean he didn't do anything special that warrants the love, he followed Han to Bespin, then played FedEx, then got ate.

Don't suddenly portray the Jedi as a bunch of corrupt assholes and add prophecies. Don't expect us to believe Obi wan actually knew who r2 and C3PO were when he never acknowledged it. Etcetera.

None of that has anything to do with respect of the fanbase, that's all just sloppy writing.

Fett had some very good novels written about his pre empire work. They were completely ignored. And sloppy writing is disrespectful to the fanbase. Put some effort, thought, and humility into the movie MILLIONS of people are dying to see. Show that you care enough to take what they Know into account rather than just saying, whelp, my Company told you all these stories, but they aren't my Star Wars so they no longer matter and you've just been popped out of the movie by your love for Star Wars and the understanding its created.

For those interested more in the Thrawn Backstory I believe Outbound Flight is the book that explains how he and Palpatine "met" and why he is who he is

They were completely ignored.

So? It was his character so he had every right to ignore those stories if they didn't fit in with his vision of what Fett was supposed to be.

Put some effort, thought, and humility into the movie MILLIONS of people are dying to see.

Are you honestly trying to say that George didn't put any effort or thought into those movies? I'm pretty sure he did, and he made the movies he wanted to make. The fact that the fan base had issues with is vision is an issue with the fanbase not the creator.

They were completely ignored.

So? It was his character so he had every right to ignore those stories if they didn't fit in with his vision of what Fett was supposed to be.

Put some effort, thought, and humility into the movie MILLIONS of people are dying to see.

Are you honestly trying to say that George didn't put any effort or thought into those movies? I'm pretty sure he did, and he made the movies he wanted to make. The fact that the fan base had issues with is vision is an issue with the fanbase not the creator.

No I'm saying he put no effort into making a movie meant to be enjoyed by the movies fanbase. He didn't care what they thought or even Knew about the universe he was writing in. And saying the fact the fanbase didn't like the movies is a problem with the fanbase is ludicrous. If they were good movies maybe. But the problem here lies in the movies. They're mediocre, with the strong point being the actions, while the writing is anywhere between questionable and bad, and the portrayal of the universe fundamentally altering the entirity of the other 3 movies.

Darth Vader's redemption arc means a whole lot less when you realize he murdered hundreds of children to get power. It makes him iredeemable.

The Jedi's destruction meanwhile is portrayed as necessary, as if they were the villains the whole time. Hypocritical, controlling, meddling villains misled and corrupted by their own power. And the clone wars. A Sham, a puppet show put on by Palpatine that nobody could figure out. The sheer incompetence of everyone who couldn't figure out Palpatine was playing both sides is almost ludicrous... And his goals barely make sense.

Basically, not only was it disrespectful to the EU. But even the original trilogy is changed for the worse by the prequals. And that failure. It rests at George's feet, and would have never happened if he tried to tell a story meant for the movies fanbase. If he treated the Universe as the Icon it had grown into, rather than whatever the strangeness running around his own head had become.