It isn't just his deck list we really need, but those he is beating. I think he has been pretty clear that his deck is destroying those he plays against with much too high a frequency to just discount his experience... but when attempted by more than competent players in other metas the same results are not seen.

That prety much leaves four reasons,

1) Lars' deck is superior to our own, providing a deck list will allow us to see exactly where his deck differs and we can better evaluate the strength of MWnK out of this deck.

2) Lars' plays his deck differently (and possibly in a superior manner in so far as maximizing MWnK potential), providing a game report, turn-by-turn would help discover how his decisions are crippling his opponents decks.

3) Lars' opponents decks are ripe for exploitation, providing a decklist will allow us to find these holes and point out ways of improving that reduce MWnK's strength.

4) Lars' opponents are not playing their decks to their full potential, providing a game report, turn-by-turn would help discover how his decisions are leading to his domination by Lars' deck.

In short what we really need I thik is a turn-by-turn report of a game with both decklists to see what is happening... and even then a single game is not proof of a problem but would be a large step forward in this discussion. Has anyone taken you up your game by IM challenge? Could we get both of you to post your logs and deck lists?

I absolutely agree that perma-steal is incredibly strong, needs to be handled carefully, and should be very expensive or situational... that said I still don't see this deck type ruling the roost, and don't see this card as being so enabling to require errata.

i don't have the energy to go through the actual deck list but if it is deemed absolutely necessary by the great KToM i'll give a jist of it here

Characters:

3x MWnK

2x King Renly

2x Bobby

Stannis

Mel

Ser Axel florent

Davos

Edric

Queen Selyse

Devan

2x ORP

3x HIghgarden Refugee

Knight of the rainwood

2x Bastard of Robert

gilly

a couple of others

Locations:

Aegon's Garden

Stmlnds Fifdm

narrow sea

KRC

Summer port

claw isle

not sure the excat numbers...i change them around a bit

attachment:

Black raven

Milk x3

Motley x2

Lightbringer

events:

Seductive promise x3 (or x2 if i want a support of the kingdom in)

Missing recruit x3

Spy in thier Midst x2

Bel. Bodyguard x2

Summer Reserves x2

Retreat & regroup x2

And before you disparage my meta for not being able to handle it again i'll give you a brief report of the game letsgored (not that i think you should disparage him either) who was running a Stark bear island deck, but i only knew it was a stark deck at the start.

Game starts out with me having Edric Storm, Bastard of Robert, highgarden refugee, narrow sea, and aegon's garden on the flop, and at least a Reins event in hand. LGR drops Old Nan, Midnight Sentry and Royal Guard, no locations. I redaw into MWnK, summer port, Gilly, another Reins and maybe Axel Florent, but he might have been on the draw.

I flip the raven search to get Black raven, LGR flops Fury takes intitative and goes first. i'm happy as going second adds str to my reins and no benifit to him for summer. He plays an Icy Catapult on both Midnight sentry and Royal Guard (okay, no military challenge for me) he played Cat O' the canals and hodor this turn too.

I play the Raven, summer port, gilly, Florent, and MWnK. He INTs for 3 w/ Old nan and COC. I defend w/ Hgdn Refugee and Gilly, win and draw a card...seductive promise. He militaries for 2, i think i defend w/ Florent (not sure why). I power with everyone to get a garaunteed win by 4. he lets it go unopposed. I seductive promise his Royal Guard., stand Florent and discard Edric for a second power challenge (use the LR while i got the chance), intitiate and lose to hodor, shockingly. no dom that round no dom actions, excpet discard of HRefugee. next plot. 1-0 me (probably should be 2-0 but i didn't let the military go unopposed for some reason). i

My plot, Song of summer, his plot winds of winter. i get intitiative, he gets to go first again. he plays shaggydog and vyman. I play Selyse Baratheon for 1 gold, another Highgarden refugee, and an ORP. save 5 gold (3 charcaters played, a few reins in my hand, and MWnK on the table by turn two...). He ints again, i defend w/ gilly and HRef to win and draw. he attacks with shaggydog. i want him to kneel Old nan so i defend w/ ORP, he kneels old nan, i lose, he plays winter has come, claim 3...HRef, ORP and Bastard of robert die, i still have 5 characters, 4 standing, 1 his w/ his IC catapult on it. He plays To be a wolf, standing Old nan. i name location, he gets ice. He then kneels old nan to make CoC a queen, taking away my int challenge...but not really as i play a summer reserve and pull an Icy catpult from his hand, not the attachment i wanted, but i'm still happy to see it go. i power challenge, he defends, my dom. In dominance i spend my 4 gold to get all 4 cards in my discard pile back now that CoC is no longer a queen. the 4 cards were edric, Hrefugee, Seductive promise, and narrow sea.

I'm thinking a reset is coming, i want my MWnK back in case he isn't running Bear island...I flip Summoning Season, he flips mutual cause...i'm suprised. I search my deck for a character that will help, but i don't care if he dies, so i get Stannis (and it forces him to make a lord and not a queen and i starting to become more sure of no nuetrals). He gets Catlyn Stark, not who i thought, but a nice grab. he plays ice on CoC and Cat and i think a Great keep. I play Stannis and devan. i get another draw off with gilly and a renown on stannis. i have 2 spy in their midsts in my hand with 5 cards...lose an int challenge intentionally and lose one and a summer reserve. the way i lost the int challenge helped too. he attacked w/ CoC and i defended with only SR. I lure of the kill of a 4 str tricon deadly army and an unopposed INt challenge does what i want and he uses ice. I play spy in the midst. he declares military. I look at the bored and think that if i keep my chacater count down he won't reset next turn. I lose kill selyse and devan. take dom. Next plot i flip feleling to the wall as i don't think i'll need and i don't want it my way he flips wildfire. I cringe, dang it he didn't like his board enough to not flip (it was me = MWnK, Gilly, Stanis, Spy, RG, Axel to him = old nan, vyman, MS w/ icy catapult (probably why he reset), COC, Cat, hodor, and Shaggydog). He kept CoC, Cat and Hodor...2 defenders, phew. I kept Spy, RG, and Stannis (knowing i was losing either spy or stannis). He killed stannis as he no longer had a lord and stannis had power on him, can't say it was a bad move at all.

No its time for me to eat. I'll give you the recap of after the reset when i'm done. Here is a spoiler. It was slow, but i won.

Here's my Bara Summer deck; It probably does the best against Lars' MWnK deck consistently.

Bara House Card

Summer Agenda

Plots

Time For Ravens

Rule By Decree

Summoning Season

Tourney for the Hand

Song of Summer

Winds of Winter

Fury of the Stag

Characters

Carrion Bird x 3

Samwell Tarly x 1

ORP x 3

Edric Storm x 1

Devan Seaworth x 1

Selyse Baratheon (Core Set) x 1

Maester Cressen x 1

Herald of the Stag x 2

Ser Davos Seaworth x 1

Brienne of Tarth x 1

Renly Baratheon(King) x 1

Banner for the Storm x 3

House Florent Scouts x 3

Summer Champion x 3

Robert Baratheon x 2

Melisandre x 2

Stannis Baratheon x 1

The Fox's Teeth x 3

Army of the Faithful x 2

King Robert's Host x 1

Locations

3 Streets

Narrow Sea x 2

Summer Port x 3

Stormlands Fiefdom x 3

King Robert's Chambers x 1

Great Hall x 3

Claw Isle x 1

Events

Seductive Promise x 2

Attachment

Bodyguard x 3

Milk of the Poppy x 2

Black Raven x 3

I removed Neutral Maester Aemon, Jon Snow and Ghost. Not really a huge loss overall.

Now would Dormouse list his Killer Stark deck that wins consistently. I don't know how you have a hand after the 3rd plot .

My deck fairs the best against a MWnK deck because there is very little to steal, even with Jon, Ghost, and Aemon.

Lars said:

Let's see, Old Ben asks for the specific decklist. You tell him it is unnecessary because anyone can piece most of it together from the rest of the thread. I support Old Ben's request by saying that when I have tried to do so, I have not gotten a deck as strong as yours, so suggest that a specific decklist might help everyone see exactly what you're talking about. I'm sorry that this has offended you.

Lars said:

I'm not sure how saying that the very few people outside your meta who have tried to make this deck on their own and have not been able to duplicate the experience that frustrates you so much disparages your meta. People play differently in different metas. Things that are common in one area are bizarre in another. I'm assuming I have a blind spot for something in trying to re-create your MwNK experience. I want to duplicate what's going on in Philly because I completely agree with your theory but haven't been able to put it together myself. I'm essentially asking you to help me put together a better deck than I seem capable of putting together on my own. And this somehow translates into a low opinion of you and your meta?

None of what I said before was personal. I'm sorry you took it that way.

after the reset he plays his Midnight Sentry again (yay!!! my[his] RG his now +1) House Tully Recuiter and Ranger of Winter.

I play narrow sea Robert, King Roberts Chamber,and Stormland Scavanger (forcing me to discard the last card in my hand, nothing earth shattering, but i forget what it was). He Intrigues w/ CoC, i leave it unopposed. He declares he is done challanges not wanting to feul my Double renown. I get off an INT challange unopposed w/ Spy and renown. I can't remember but i beleive i won a power challenge as well. he takes dom.

Next round he plays power of arms, i play unconventional warfare. He gets out a Northen Cavalry flank. I get out MWnK and Knight of the rainwood. things get a little fuzzy on this turn, but w/ booby standing i disuade him form many (if any challanges) i settle for a int challgne with spy again (darn...) and pull winter has come (darn aagain...). at this point i'm at about 10 power to his 4 or 5.

6th plot for me is Fury his is Rule. i go first. I draw Renly and seductive promise. play renly, not sure what he plays but no earth shattering characters. I kneel out for military to get 2renown on bobby and get renown and a card with the spy. he gets i power off my house, i win dom. 12-7 at this point.

Next turn we were both expecting the other to play a reset (i thought for sure valar was coming) i flipped Power of blood, he flipped power of arms. I had enough characters on the board to kneel out for power to claim the last 3 power i needed in renown, bobby and renly.

LCG was lamenting my using his Royal Guard all game even though he got one use out of him. LGR never got his bear island out, but i never got my saves or dupes out so it evened out (my own milk is a great way to protect a rein w/ power on it and not lose anything).

Kpmccoy's deck is the summer bara i refer to that often becomes a race for mel/milk, but i love stealing his streets and do so every chance i can get. he also is an example of taking half the KAT nuetralsout of his deck and yet still providing me w/ a 10%+ expansion to my deck without changing the draw ratio.

Ktom, the disparagin remark was toward dormouse's 4 reasons why i think MWnK is too strong (i don;t care what you say about me, i get more defensive when you talk about my firends). As for a deck list, i sitll don;t see the need for it, what did you learn? that i use milk/motely, cheap characters, native renown, MWnK, Reins events, and a lot more cheap characters?

Lars said:

I learned that you pretty much don't use any other events other than the Reinforcements. You are only using attachments for control. That's not something I normally do. Of course, I was building out of Lanni, not Bara.

I learned that other than Claw Isle and Lightbringer, you are not using any locations or attachments that benefit your own characters or improve your situation beyond gold and reducers. Again, something that I do not normally do in the LCG environment because there is so little attachment and location control. In the Lannister, I will usually be running a Devious Intentions, Brothel and/or Lion's Gate, for example.

I learned that you are running plots like Summoning Season. Again, particularly in Lannister, my preference is usually to rely on various draw mechanics rather than two-sided search plots. And in my control-centric meta, it's usually a bad plan to let your opponent search for a character when you do, especially when you have to reveal yours first.

I learned that the deck is really stripped down to characters and that other than MWnK, there isn't really a lot of "toolboxing" in your deck. The basic strategy seems to be to overwhelm your opponent with characters and the challenge choices they make rather than to work in more aggressive forms of control. As the game with lgr seems to show, the MWnK steal ability is gravy on top of what seems to primarily be a rush strategy with tricky characters (as evidenced in part by the fact that you were trying to manage the plot reset expectations). We play a lot more focused control cards in my meta, even in our rush decks (as evidenced by the fact that Valar is a pretty rare plot to see around here). This implies to me that part of the difficulty I'm having in duplicating your experience is the wrong underlying strategy.

The blind spot I seem to have is a preference or predisposition for control, so I assume the non-specific cards include more control than you seem to be dealing with. So I did learn a lot from the partial decklist and the game report. Now, it's not like the Bara-MwNK deck laid a crushing smackdown. It sounds like a respectable and fun game. But I can also see where it has different assumptions that would make it play better against decks with non-House cards than what I have come up with thus far.

basically i took what bara does well (outside of winter) and added reins to it. My characters (stealth, Double renown bobby against LGR is a great example) are a form of control, i force very hard decisiosn on your challange phase while allowing myself the freedom to do what i want (essence of lanni kneel, no?).

If i'm running them out of lanni, as Jeff does, i use a lot of contorl and let the reins be power grab to speed it up. Its still toolbox, and the bonus is that if you are running your own toolbox i can steal it.

Yes, the game with LGR was fun at least from my point of view. However, I never felt threatened or in any jeapordy of not winning the game (not LGR's fault or becuase of anything he did or didn't do). I was confident that if he had Neutrals/OOH it would make my deck better, then as the game went on and i saw that he didn't have neutrals i was able to exploit my reins toolbox (spy in the midst was huge in that game) to take advantage of a hole in his deck (lack of int icons). After the reset he lost better unique characters then i did, i'm sure he wouldn't have minded having access to Benjen. PLus my holding onto gold for multiple reasons allowed me recursion of my whole discard pile at one point, for the same cost it would have for him to have selmy. Both of those cards aside from recurssion would have fit his deck better then ranger of winter (no stealth) or Northen Cavalry Flank (no renown). I don't think i played at almost a 2-1 ratio (and a 3-1 ratio before the reset) better then LGR (in fact i think he made a lot of great plays to prolong the game to 7 plots), but i claimed that much more power then him becuase of the options aviliable to me. I know he was cursing Gilly (and thats probably why he reset), but could he risk putting gilly in his deck and having me steal her? I know he didn't like me using his RG all game (especially with the stalwart bonus from MS and the nuetering of a targeted kill). I can infer that any cards i drew w/ his theoritical gilly would have given him a worse feeling.

btw. power on my characters at the end of the game = 8 with 3 on a neutral charcater. Power on his characters at the end of the game = 1 on Eddard for coming into play.

ktom said:

heh, if bara had three cards as cost efficient as those 3 they'ed be in my deck too. I toy w/ hunting spear on MWnK (for protection from bear island/Castellan more then the actual benifit) but i often find something better for the 2 gold.

do i need more toolboxing then MWnK? i have useful draw...i don't need sam since most people still think running him is okay....if your running streets, well then i have them too, if not i don't have a problem with gold...any toolbox you have i have too, plus my MWnK reins. If you have no toolbox then i have toolbox even if 'only reins' and there is the advanatge i have before the game is even started.

Lars said:

Actually, I would say "no." To me, the essence of Lanni kneel is to leave my opponent with virtually no options (or decisions) in the challenge phase. To me, the essence of "control" is the removal of your opponent's options - pruning the decision tree as it were. The kind of "control" you seem to be describing is leaving yourself with so many options that one of them must be viable no matter what your opponent does, limited or not. But it's all just semantics, really.

I'm sorry if my post offended you Lars, but those 4 things are the truth, not intended to be insulting. You either play differently or your meta does, you either build differently or your meta does, those are the only choices. I wasn't trying to slam anyone, there was no emotion on my side in that post and if I used any terms that were emotionally charged I apologize.

I ripped the Stark deck apart several weeks ago so I no longer know what was precisely in it. This was the last deck list I had.

Stark Control - Stark

----- Plots (7) avg income: 3.4 -----
The Winds of Winter x1
Mutual Cause x1
Wildfire Assault x1
Building Season x1
The Power of Arms x2
Fury of the Wolf x1

----- Characters (35) avg cost: 2.2 -----
* Cat o' the Canals x1
Ranger of Winter x3
* Maester Vyman x1
* Jeyne Westerling x1
* Ser Rodrik Cassel x1
* Eddard Stark x1
* Catelyn Stark x1
* Robb Stark x1
* Sansa Stark x1
* Shaggydog x1
* Hodor x1
* Lady x1
Bolton Refugee x3
Northern Infantry x2
House Tully Recruiter x3
* Old Nan x1
Midnight Sentry x3
House Umber Berserkers x3
* Dacey Mormont x1
Feral Pack x2
Wolf Herald x2
Royal Guard x3
Vanguard Scouts x3

----- Locations (13) avg cost: 0.8 -----
Northern Fiefdoms x3
* Lord Eddard's Chambers x1
Great Keep x3
Godswood x2
Narrow Sea x3
* Bear Island x1

----- Attachments (7) avg cost: 1.4 -----
* Ice x2
* Nymeria x1
* Summer x1
Icy Catapult x3

----- Events (9) -----
Lethal Counterattack x2
Guilty! x2
The Battle of the Whispering Wood x2
To Be a Wolf x3

At various points this deck included Valar in place of one of the Power of Arms, was a Winter deck running the Horn, Support of the Kingdom, Spy and Winter Reins... I think that may have been the last version of the deck, but I no longer remember what was taken out for those cards.

I don't think the deck itself is that special... I think the thing that makes it difficult to beat is my using my kill effects as my main means of controlling your intrigue characters and your special effect cards. I love putting Ice on Catelyn for example, sticking Icy Catapult on Midnight Sentry and then killing it off with Umber Beserker or Wildfire, again targeting the cards that are most likely to get around my wall of military and power icons. I love using the Epic event during a two claim challenge especially when I have a non-kneeler or two for defense and or deadly out and of course kill off the strongest Int/Pow character on my opponents board.

What I've been toying with is a Winter Stark deck running devious Intentions x3, War Horn, and WR and Spy. Obviously those event-turned-characters would be ripe for stealing by MWnK, but if the deck works the way it is supposed to you shouldn't be able to afford to take them or be able to keep a MWnK on the table... of course I haven't quite figured out how viable the idea is yet.

dormouse said:

I would agree that it's the driver, not the car. It looks to me that any Lanni kneel deck would eat your lunch consistently, But I will work on it to see if Bear Island is viable again.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I can see how this card is really strong, and a bit frustrating. However, I think the problem with the card lies more with the lcg format than the power of the cards itself. I'm guessing once we get some more cards from both the GJ expansion and KL chapter packs, it will decrease in power. So I'd just chalk this up to the growing pains of the lcg. I know that the ccg had its fair shair of problems at first.

Pretty good analysis Staton - and kind of what I have been trying to get at all along.

At first, I was totally with Lars about how scary this card was. And I still maintain that the effect is ridicously easy to get off. But its really an LCG thing - event cancels and a little immunity would go a long way to slowing it down.

The conversation from this weekend. was pretty informative. I don't think anyone was taking shots at the Philly-DE meta intentionally. But I do think that this is a meta thing. I'm not convince neutrals are required for competitive decks in LCG, and thus I am not convinced this card will own me in a competitive event, nor that including the card in my deck is the surest way to Top Eight. Its not a good card for the game - but I don't think its unbalancing.

I don't think anything else I read will change my opinion on this so I'll refrian from further comment. on the card.

Last thing on this weekend's posts: I question LGR's decision not to run lcoation search in his Plots. There aren't really any lcoations out there (apart form Lannister0 taht will hurt you more than Bear Island will hurt your opponent. I htink the Island drives that deck, and i would have made **** sure I could reliably get it on the board if I was playing Stark.

Lars recap is a very good account of our game --a few details maybe out of place, but it captures the gist of the game very well and is much better than if I tried to recall the details and type it up. In hindsight, having Lars take Royal Guard with Seductive Promise ended up having more impact than I expected. I was a little concerned about Seductive Promise in round one and I should have tried to protect against it, but in part I didn't think he'd use it on either Royal Guard or Midnight Sentry and would instead hold it if he had it in his hand for something "juicier". Bad calculation on my part. The other potential big failing on my part was not putting Building Season into my plot deck and instead hoping to draw into Bear Island, which never happened. So while Lars did not beat me on the strength of MwNK, he may nonetheless have helped make part of his point in that he can build a MwNK deck to have its potential upside and still do fine with it when it doesn't have targets. Then again, while I'm always an enthusiastic player I don't think there's much compelling evidence that I'm a very strong player, so me losing may not be indicative of much. Lars, thanks for a very enjoyable game.

EDIT: Stag's right, but I did build this deck with the idea of using it for playing in our meta and not as a Bara-MwNK killer and allowing the Lanni players in our group to search for location leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

LetsGoRed said:

Thank you too. Honestly, i think you did fine, no move that i was like, uh-oh he just left me a giant hole. You did a great job of limiting my choices (its why it went to 7 plots). You were focused on stopping me from taking a card from your hand every turn in the begining and were doing an admirable job of it until my reins events came in (turn 2). It was more that after the reset your character choices were limited...The best card you played was essentially MWnK ultra-lite (Northen Cavalary flank...i'm not counting Eddard because he came out too late to impact the game) and thats not becuase you built a bad deck, but becuase you were lacking options when you built the deck. Bear island is supposed to give you an advanatge for limiting your options...but i'm not sure it does...see below

Stag Lord said:

we are 100% in concert on this. However, you are putting an awful lot of reliance on a small amount of cards. Were do we cut of the card pool will take care of the problem answer? Is it gencon (when we get only half of of KL and 50 cards in an expansion [and is nate really going to give GJ a lot more power effects then he has given to other house?]). Is it next January (my best guess for martell expansion, 2 gencon's from now, 3?

As for the cards that are coming now...well we have half of KL...i still see this being very grey, msotly helping Lannister and baratheon maintain their stance atop the LCG, and actually strengthing MWnK as the sahdows no gives me more benifit to turns when i'm holding all kinds of gold (and more bonus to me having the cheap weenies in the deck) I don't think it will affect my build that much. I'll probably take an ORP, Knight of the Rainwood, Stlnds Scavanager, and Edric out to make room for at least 4 shadows and only gain one marshalling gold cost.

Stag Lord said:

I think LGR's answer is a fine answer i would have glady gotten claw isle or a reducer w/ his building season in bara. I also, think that Bear island would have speed my deck up a bit too. It would have been one less charcater he had out a turn (because of the cost. making it easier for me to win challenges) and almost negating his own kill with it. If we want to talk about not drawing a specific card (i.e. the what if game...) in a 60-61 card deck, well, i never drew lightbringer or my dupes or my milk's (which i'd gladly put on reins events to protect them [no affect] and if bobby had power on him i'd probably put it on him too) to protect from BI.

The reason i really have qualms about a bear island deck is because of its lack of options for such a small effect. you give up a lot of stuff, and then are overpaying for a dominance action that is easily protected against.

I kept waiting for the part where Lars killed off the Royal Guard, and LGR used the Icy Catapault to kill another character. Being forced to save the RG to avoid one of your characters getting killed doesn't seem like the risk/reward ratio I would have used when chosing targets for Seductive Promise. I'm glad it worked out for you, but also rather amazed.

As far as running neutrals, Inoticed that you dropped Gilly early in the game. All that that tells me is that 1) I can run Gilly myself and 2) wait until you play yours. Then mine is almost completely safe (unless something returns your Gilly to your hand).

Good write up, and thanks for the deck list. I'm starting to see why I want to run Reinforcements characters over other events in my hand (cripes, any Ref character at this point appears better than Retreat), even if I don't run MWnK. Is the question soon to become is MWnK overbalanced, or Ref events?

JerusalemJones said:

I'd say that question has already been asked. Stag and I have both said that the Reinforcement events make a lot more of our decks than MwNK. And when they were first spoiled, the universal reaction was pretty much "how is 3-STR, stealthy Renown NOT a great thing in LCG"?

ktom said:

Yeah. Personally I think they're stupid and totally boring actually. And definitely under-costed/over-powered in LCG. I play the game because it has characters from the books, on top of the fun gameplay. Running a swarm of totally generic events that turn into totally generic characters better than half of the named characters that I can put in my deck just doesn't have a high appeal to me.

i've stolen RG w/ icy on it a few times in our own meta games. its one of my favorite moves.

I don't mind keeping a vigilant character on the board to deny you a kill, especially when your own cards are pumping the vigilant character.

If you want risk that i have gilly in my deck, thats fine. if you draw her before me, i'll gladly steal her, and use my copy if/when drawn as a dupe. or steal yours claim soak and get my own gilly later. If you are going to hold her in your hand until i play mine...well that could be a long time (drawing her early is not a given, and i search for 1 of 5 characters...of which she is not one). In summation your gilly is lot larger of a risk then my gilly (who is no risk at all actually). heck, i believe even if i do kill mine after you play yours the steal turns into a discard, so while not as effective as a steal i can never the less deny you the use of your gilly.

This reaction is another reason why i was hesitant to put up a deck list because it turns into more of a "Well, i can do this because of this card and this because of this card" response instead of looking at what MWnK gives me. which is an absolute advantage over any deck not running its own MWnK (and then race to out number MWnK). Kpmccoy's Summer deck took 4 cards out of his deck. He did not replace them with cards as efficient as those 4, thereby reducing the effectiveness of his deck, where as i added reins events to increase the effectiveness of mine. He left in streets, birds, and sam thereby adding to my deck as well.

back to reins vs. MWnK. i think Reins are ok. they are strong but not a lot stronger then say jon/ghost, aemon, and selmy/benjen (and others in the right deck). I don't mind MWnK being a counter to the reins, but i don't get why it is a counter to said cards (+), neutral locations, and OOH. If MWnK wasn't in the evironment the choice would be Reins or neutrals or OOH. thats an okay choice in my mind as it doens't deny any options, it just provides a different dynamic to those options and can fit different playstyles and deck builds. However, w/ MWnK in the environment there is no choice. Its reins and then its MWnK (unless you want risk someone having MWnK in their deck and using your reins...). why run neutrals/OOH when they can be stolen? i don't know the answer to this one. Why run Reins when they can be stolen? Becuase MWnK gets them back while working with the Reins which you've allready put in you deck and possibly a whole lot more. That is why i think MWnK is the problem and not the Reins themselves. The reins, while strong cards, don't affect your opponents deck and your opponents deck building options, MWnK does. I feel like i've said this before, but there hasn't been a direct response to it (other then "i don't use neutrals anyway," well thats great, but wouldn't you like the option to? or "it only hits about 20% of my deck"....1 card, .017% of my deck affects 20% of yours...thats not overpowered?)

Lars said:

Pardon me if I sound rude, but that's basically all you've done in response to everyone else's comments on why they feel differently about MwnK up to this point... So I don't really see the difference except as a means of back-peddling if things go the other way. You seem to take this very personally at times, and it rubs some the wrong way I think. Not your intent, I'm sure, nor mine... but that's how I see it a little bit.

that's fair, but when a specific card is offered as the answer to MWnK (as GJ Marauders is, or that losing a street isn't a big deal, or winter kills my gold) how am i supposed to respond? I think showing how the dynamic between MWnK and the offered solution is a valid way to respond, no? Saying "I MWnK is not a problem, oh yeah but this other card in your deck allows me to do this" is not on topic to MWnK being the problem (maybe i suck at deck building, MWnK is still way to strong).

The only time i took it personally is when i felt that people who are very capable human beings were being painted in brush strokes making them seem incapable. Its not their decks or their play choices that are the problem here. A Legacy champ (Jeff) can figure a way around MWnK if he had the tools to do so, so can Kevin or Jerry for that matter as they have been playing a lot longer then I have (and thats only half of my meta...i'm sure the others could as well). My exsaperation at other issues should not be confused with taking it personally.

Yeah, I can see it your way as well. Sorry if I came off as harsh, its been sort of a crappy day and the internet is notoriously easy for venting ones real life frustrations. :-)

And it is hard though, playing theory games of "you did this, but i'd do that" over the internet too. It doesn't prove a lot for either person involved, and can quickly become frustrating. Unfortunately with the current state of affairs with OP it really looks like GenCon will likely be the only time we can get enough of the various metas together at once to really be able to look at the potential problem in a true light.

I'm not convinced its totally broken. But I do think its boring and frustrating for a lot of deck-building options. Is that enough to warrant a change? I don't know yet. The whole MwnK and Reinforcements events altogether, that is.

Lars said:

A good point, but normalize those stats. (Oh, and 1 card is 1.67% of a 60 card deck, not .017%.)

If you are running 3 copies of MwNK, then we're really talking about 5% of your deck affecting 20% of mine. Still an amazing ratio, of course.

If you are only running 1 copy, then we have to look at everything else the deck is obligated to do to keep that 1 card out and affecting my 20%

Like Stag, I am not convinced that neutrals and OOH are so vital to a typical LCG deck that MwNK is a force that creates serious imbalance in the current environment. We've had stupidly powerful and efficient cards before that didn't really make the environment worse. Said differently, I'm not sure the "20%" is a given in an LCG deck. I'm not so concerned with it as is with what we have right now in the LCG environment. It's part of how the environment evolves, especially with the Refugee and Reinforcement theme. As powerful as MwNK is as a card, I don't really feel it is currently making the environment worse - despite creating a lot of things to think about when you build a deck. I mean, it's not like we haven't had cards that were one of the best answers to themselves before. (One of the reasons I'm not sure why "how do you address MwNK without using MwNK?" seems to be such an important question. Why shouldn't I use it in my deck to counter your use of it?)

My main concern is becoming that MwNK may be a card like Devious Machinations. In general, we're pretty well agreed that DM is the reason Martell and neutral characters with the Noble crest became an endangered species, right? The one card more or less dictated the direction development could take without creating serious imbalance in the environment. If MwNK makes it impossible for FFG to develop neutrals or characters that fit certain OOH themes, that's bad. (For example, weren't we told a long time ago that we'd see GJ and Martell "pseudo-Treaty" Agendas at some point? I'm not sure if that's still on the table with the GJ expansion coming out in July, but if it is, how does MwNK figure into them ?)

All I am saying is that if you are in my meta, and I know you play Gilly, I'll put her in my deck. She's useful, and often a sacrificial lamb, so I may play her on a turn when you don't have MWnK and hopefully kill her off before you get your MWnK on the board. Or wait until you do steal her, then Valar the next turn. I don't build my decks for major events, just the local meta and to explore themes. I suck at any major competition -- my latest theory is that I subconsiously shoot myself in the foot.

I'm glad this deck runs well for you, and I can understand your reluctance to post a deck list, but it does affect how the community sees this issue. Sure, perma-steal can be dangerous, but this isn't the first card that does it (and not even the first in LCG). It just might be the most powerful. Maybe. But can only be used once each turn (as opposed to SP and the location stealer -- I forget the name). But I just can't jump on the errata/ban bandwagon about it. I'll wade in with opinions here and there, but I know that we'll never change each others minds here. The only thing tht will change your mind is if we get a cancel for it other than To Be A Kraken, and I can't think what will change mine at this point. But keep it up. I'm glad to see a discussion of cards -- any cards! -- taking place here.