If you sick of hearing about this well, too bad

SO last night we had a Lanni men with no King deck verse a bara MWnK deck. It was not fun and it went over 8 plots. The bara deck won because it was able to seductive promise away the lanni players MwnK which gave it the MWnK edge (it was at least 2:1 after that turn). MWnK made castellan of the rock almost a wast of a card because the lanni player couldn't risk triggering it with MWnK on the board. We then had a discussion about the environment after that game. here is a brief synopsis of that discussion. The end all of the conversation is that right now you have to have a MWnK in your deck. YOu don;t need you own Reins events, but you should have the MWnK. Isn't that the ultimate defination of errata worthy that it is a must have in every deck?

What decks type could beat MwnK w/out running MWnK? Stark Bear island? Lanni Kneel? Bara Rush?

Stark Bear Island Pros - rewarded for not running MWnK

Stark Bear Island Cons - i think they have been hashed out in previous threads, you lose a lot of toolbox, lose access to seasons , etc.

Lanni Kneel Pros - don't need toolbox, allows you to use the limited response on Castellan

Lanni Kneel Cons - well you might have their characters on the board knelt, but to win the game you have to win challenges and that lets the reinforcements come in which gives your opponet 3 'free' charcaters with renown and stealth each turn (in theory), very slow, lacks power rush, still vulnerable to seductive promise/support of the kingdom, Lose the potent lion's gate/carrion bird combo.

Bara Rush Pros - doesn't need the toolbox, could rush past MwnK and more importantly the reins.

Bara Rush Cons - toolbox, while not needed, helps, MWnK out of bara can nueter the rush or go as fast as the rush with extra help from reins.

It seemed to us that the cons generally outwieghed or were as weighty as the pros.

Any other decks people want to add to this? Maybe GJ will provide some answers...but thats asking a lot from 53 cards (with a chunk being GJ resource locations and Knight of the Tumblestone type characters).

I hear you - MwNK makes me nervous as well. But....

Reading that the Lanni player was afraid to trigger hsi Limited response Castellan makes me grin. Its actually an agrument in FAVOR of Men with No King that Lannis catually ahve to think baout the limited response and that there is a drawback to the LR mechanic and its limitation. Cause there kind of wasn't before.

I´m surprised to read such reports about them.

In our meta they are not really seen as a threat, as the only neutral cards often played are the streets, and samwell with ravens. And maybe up to 2 neutral uniques in some decks. And the only cards out of house so far has been Golden tooth mines in one deck, and some Winter marauders in another. ( The reinforcement cards are still untried)

Do you guys really have such a differnt play style across the big pond?

Moneylender said:

so you pay 4 for a Golden Tooth mine OOH of house. He spent 4 gold for the MWnK, then plays a reinforcement event. lets say missing recruit. He now spends 1 gold and gets a character w/ stealth and renown on his board then he spends 2 more gold to steel the GTM. he only spent 3 more gold then you, but used it for 2 characters (one with stealth and renown the other with 5 str) and the Draw that you wanted to use so much as you felt that your house lacked it so you put an OOH card in your deck.

same filling a hole in your deck argument can be made for any nuetral location or character you put in your deck, now your opponet gets to not only deprive you of that card but make use of it himself. Some dismiss it when talking about ravens, but do the ravens serve a purpose in your deck? heck even if they don't you now watched your opponent gain 2 charcaters w/ stealth while you lost one.

yes you can get 'around' it by not putting any nuetral or OOH locations or charcaters in your deck, but in LCG how are you going to fill those holes? a lot of in house draw options in LCG get laughed at. The charcater base is lacking certain things in certian houses. Meanwhile you opponent is not limited becuase he has his own MWnK to protect anything he puts in his deck and/or the Reins events to help speed up his deck or help his gold curve.

Hey Lars, I haven't played against MWNK so I'm not that familiar with some of the imbalances you've encountered. I have some questions regarding your observations, however.

How many turns does it take to get MWNK/reinforcements up and running? It seems to me that outside of Lannister, the combo would normally take a couple turns to work because 7 gold (4 gold for the army, 3 gold for the combo) is rather expensive to do all in one turn, assuming you didn't play the army during setup. So at the earliest (with a search plot on round 1 and assuming you have reinforcements in hand), grab and play MWNK the first turn. Second turn, save enough gold to play the combo. In most cases, however, I would guess that the mechanic isn't up and running until round 3-4. Is that basically how it goes?

As a related question, how resource intensive is this mechanic? It sounds like it requires a lot of gold, and I'm just wondering how you played it in Baratheon (or any house other than Lannister for that matter). Which locations do you run in the deck? Would it be vulnerable to winter decks with location hate?

I don't mean to speak for others on this forum, but my kneejerk reaction after reading the "nerf MWNK" posts is that they are a bit overblown. That said, I felt similarly about Jaqen until I played against him, and my intuation turned out to be way off, so I could be similarly naive here. (Unlike Jaqen though, MWNK's ability requires multiple cards to work, MWNK can be killed, and the current play environment lacks the resources/draw to play MWNK quickly/reliably outside of Lannister. Also, the card is neutral and the ability doesn't work without a target.) I don't mean to sound distrustful/argumentative--I guess I'm just looking for more background. Any insight would be great, thanks!

I run them out of Bara, Jeff runs them out of Lanni. I beat Jeff's lanni deck (see first post) so i have little problems getting them out in bara. Especialy with Retreat and regroup i can lower the cost for the combo if i need to.

With summer, the refugees, and the wealth of solid 2 cost characters (not counting MWnK i have 3 3 cost charcaters and 3 4 cost charcaters so about half of my characters, not counting reins, cost 2 or less with half of those costing 1 or less) in Bara i have little problems with my gold curve (plots are all 4+ gold as well) in fact i've included a couple of other pay gold effects into the deck (Queen Selyse to get reins back into the deck, and unconventional warfare for king renly draw). I also have Gilly. I have the summer agenda, but don't need it. I also have a solid int icon base (in fact in game against lanni i was winning an int challenge every turn. Some times i can overplay my hand early (i.e. spam characters...but if i play slow i'm fine).

In my deck it realistically takes 2 turns (i currently have 12 reins events in my deck, but i could have up to 15, or heck i could be crazy and put in 18) at the most to get the combo going and thats if i'm hurting for locations (i have about 12 resource locations in there, not counting my opponents Streets ). MWnK, bastard of robert/fiefdom, refugee, narrow sea/ageon's garden is a typical flop. First turn plot is either summons (couldn't care less what character you get, though mel can be a pain, but thats what 3x milk is for) or raven search. A winter deck might slow me down, but if i have a turn to set up then it won't bother me as with my plots alone i will still have 3 gold a turn (which is realistically all i need for the combo and to still get a charcater out, which is part of the combo). The other cool thing about it being summer for a turn or two is it gives me a possible 3 more triggers for the reins events (with the summer researves event) and if winter decks start becoming the rage, i'll take one summer researve out and put in a winter researve. Summer also gives me access to summer's port location. Also, in Bara MWnK is a great fueler of Seductive Promise/Support of the Kingdom so i can use your cards some more to fuel my deck.

As i've said before i didn't think Jaquen needed to be banned especially after the errata. Character control can slow jaquen down (does it really hurt to make sure you have 3x milks in your deck?) but typical charcater control doesn't have the impact on MWnK that it would have on Jaquen, they are non-unique so if you control one, i still have 2 more, they can't take milk or motley (yeah fishing net can be a slower, but out of bara in comes one of their nice 2 cost charcaters...Cresson).

Now with all that said i think the real problem w/ MWnK is that with them, as they currently work, in the environment you are forcing people to do one of two things. 1) run no nuetral or OOH charcaters or locations (thats what over 1/3 of you options for a deck in LCG) and live with the holes in their deck while your opponet, who is running MWnK gets to fixthose holes or 2) run MWnK yourself as the only real counter to MWnK. In my mind it really isn't a choice, which was the point of my first post. A dedicated MWnK w/ reins trumps a deck without MWnK and w/out nuetrals/OOH just about every time. No one has really presented a deck type that can handle it. At least not in my meta or on the boards out loud. Targ i don't include in the disccusion even though they have Queen Dany who should be able to stop MWnK but they are hurt by Fury of the Stag (the reason i went MWnK out of bara btw...steal steal steal steal). A winter GJ deck might be able to stop it, depending on whats in Kings of Salt and Rock (as they still need too much nuetral ,especially locations, to have a solid deck right now)...but thats a big unkown right now and is only getting realistically 30 cards that could help it. JJ brought up Wintertime Maraduers. they could eventually be an answer, but again i'm already running summer, so i have anti winter tech, and more specifically milk and retreat and regroup are good counters to the maraduers (again which are already in my build). I'm not saying they should be banned, but there has to be an errata to make them not dominate deckbuilding and the game w/ reins events (and everyone keeps saying its a two card combo...well the second card does wonders for you as well. At the least it lowers the cost of the steal while possible adding recurssion to your deck, or it gives you a tricon with 4 STR and deadly, or a mono con with 3 STR stealt hand renown...i'm never crying when i have to play a rein event....). If the Reins events didn;t have stealth and rewnown and only cost one gold(better then jsut about every charcater in the game right now). You not the first to go, well MWnK doesn't help you win, well in a way he does as by having him in my deck i have the whole cardpool to pull cards from, access to the reins events (stealth and renown......or at worst a tricon with deadly....) and if you aren't running him you are limiting your cardpool or giving me a lot of cards to use from your deck. In standard he wouldn't be a problem becuase the cardpool can absorb being limited...but in LCG he is a beast. Its either run him or find the deck without at least 1/3 of the cardpool. Remeber how everyone was raving about the ravens (pun not intended) lion's gate....i hope your running that, then you won't be running winter and i can steal your ravens and have a 5 STR mil/pow guy standing right next to him (at the least).

I can dig up a few of my other posts about MWnK for more background if you like but i think i touched on it all right here.

Lars said:

Ah, now i understand the whole agitation about the men without king a little more, i read about that several times (- thank you Lars ;-) ) but always missed that it´s a LCG format problem- if it´s a problem at all. After all your decriptions it´s my impression that the problem will solve itself with the release of more inhouse card alternatives. Which has been more or less a problem of the LCG format till date, men with no king and the neutral events just seem to catalyze the original problem.

If i would play a little more LCG i would probably ask the other players to play men with no king without game text, till some more inhouse card support arrives in a month or two. Besides that i wonder that "too proud to bow" never made it into any deck. In general i don´t like these dominance cards, but it seems to be interesting with all the neutral stuff running around.

Wow this is crazy. I see MwnK as a strong card, but game defining like that?! Wow. OK, I need to build a deck w/o this card and play against someone via AIM or something. I really don't see this card as a problem, I think its more of a matter of its hurts a certain type of deck building preferance. Now I'm not saying its a good balanced card, but it doesn't seem to be nearly as broken as everyone makes it seems. OK, so I'll build an LCG deck(or five) and then play against someone running MwnK. So Lars, could you possibly play over aim or phone? I need to see this crazy card in action.

So we ran an event last night and I need to back off on the Men with No Kjng hate a little.I still hate perma steal, but I ahve to go with money lender here - there just don't seem that many targets for these guys that are worth getting worked up about.

Alll three games I had MwNK out or in hand. I ran three copies and nine reinforcement events.

I was running Baratheon with three four+ gold Plots, two three gold Plots, and the obvious two gold Plot that is in every deck.

One game was against a Stark Bear Island deck - no targets.

In the other two games and one pick up game - within a turn of MwNK hitting the baord I had the gold + event in hand to trigger them at will - but there realy wasn't anything game swinging to take. A Carrion Bird or two? Sam once? Taht was about it. In fact, a couple of times MwNK got chucked when I got hit by RBD.

I need to see them in action more - but I am starting to wonder if my reaction was just my concern about perma steal effects, whihc IMO need to be carefully balanced. I am looking at my decks and wondering what neutral cards, apart from the MwNKs themselves it would really annoy me to lose. Teh Birds are what they are, sam isn't a really great draw engine anyway, Gilly leaves when it is Winter, Streets are really just there for the flop.....

The card still needs watching, but if there was a Regional season coming up, I'm not sure it would be dominant. It wasn't decisive in any of my games and it wouldn't have greatly impacted my deck if my opponent(s) had got it set up against me. i'm still concenred, Lars, but not as much as I was.

It is obvious that my meta plays differently from Lars', so take these comments with a grain of salt.

First observation, as Old Ben says, is to recognize that we are talking about the LCG format. All neutral characters and locations being at risk for "perma-steal" is more of a consideration in the LCG format than in "Traditional Standard" or "Legacy" play. There are more options for non-neutral cards to fill the "holes" people fill with neutral and OOH in LCG.

Second observation, as Stag Lord says, in our meta's LCG events, there aren't a whole lot of neutral or OOH "targets" that seem worth the trouble. Outside of a Greyjoy or Martell LCG decks, we're not seeing a consistent flow of neutral characters that are much more than fodder. It doesn't throw the game off much to lose them, so that limits the effectiveness of the combo in the Lannister deck I built to take advantage of it. And I'm expecting that come July, it will only be Martell that is filling most of those holes with OOH and neutral LCG cards. My play experience to date is a lot more like what Stag Lord saw than what Lars sees.

Third observation, Lars could be seeing and experiencing this at a different level than I am - a level that may indeed be more indicative of what the character/combo would eventually be in the environment. Many of Lars' comments center not so much around "I took his Jon Snow and it was all over - he couldn't recover." They are more about "I was able to slowly erode his resource/character base - no individual steal was game changing, but the cumulative effect was devastating." He backs it up with a rather good discussion of how the resource flow is in favor of the MWnK controller because the "prema-steal" essentially negates the resources the opponent put into playing the neutral/OOH cards, in addition to taking their fodder, resources, whatever.

So at this point, it seems to me that either Lars is either way ahead of the curve on using/abusing MWnK, or his meta uses neutrals/OOH in LCG too differently from mine for the experiences to be directly comparable. In theory, I see exactly what Lars is talking about and agree that it could be a major problem. In practice, I'm not seeing it work out that way. My personal feeling is that some more watchful waiting is in order to see where the majority of the play experience falls - where Stag/myself have seen it to date or where Lars has seen it to date.

Staton said:

I'd have to get an AIM account, but sure.

2 points post respones. the first comes from kpmccoy via an e-mail discussion we are having, this isn't jsut me its my meta has a whole (one of us is the reigning classic world champ FYI, ~like to rub rings' noise in it a bit )

Certain houses need Neutrals to function, let alone toolbox.(I'm looking at you Stark and Targ [let alone Martell...]). Otherwise we should call the game Lannister vs Baratheon and be done with it. It should be **** expensive to steal an opponents character. I don't mind stealing the reinforcement events because they are extremely undercosted for this environment, but the other neutral characters [let alone locations and OOH charcaters and locations] are balanced in cost and its a huge swing for 2 gold, even once per turn. Why should playing Neutrals be a liability in an environment where huge gaping holes were created to be filled with Neutrals?

and my second point which i think gets buried (what doesn't in such long posts ) is that MWnK is not the only problem, but the combo is (even though people say its a reason its not a problem). Ktom and Stag are right, there are some games where there are no taregts, and you know what, my deck likes those games better becuase MWnK has done all the work for me without having to trigger it a single time (there is no toolbox in the deck so i can use the rest of my control to exploit further holes) and then on top of all of that i get 9 charcaters for 1 gold with Stealth and Renown, Can your deck match that? Can your deck either neuter/exploit in the deckbuilding stage and rush on top of it? I don't even think Winter bara has the marriage of control and rush that MWnK allows. Reins are awesome events, add to them at least seductive promise [and if you want to go all out Support of the kingdom] and i almost don't need to put my own charcaters or as many resopurces in the deck. Then add MWnK and i get to a) either keep you from filling the holes in your deck or b) [cite to Ktom] "...slowly erode his resource/character base - no individual steal was game changing, but the cumulative effect was devastating."

In our city in Germany we play almost LCG only. And I do not see too many neutral characters included in the decks. And if my opponent gets the men on the board, well I either kill them or take them away with seductive promise making his whole reinforcements strategy worthless.

I'll leave the debate about how strong they are til I see them in action myself, but Lars, what would be your ideal solution? It does seem extremely strong... just haven't played enough LCG-only to determine it's impact on the metagame. A more robust regionals season would have done wonders to answer this question... an upgrade to OP will definitely help in this area.

Would you prefer to see the card banned? Given a limited duration on the steal? Changed from "does not have" to "does not match" (so as to exclude neutrals)? Limit it to non-uniques (still plenty, but lets you splash some)

mischraum.de said:

please kill them (with what btw...stark dominence effects? burn is hard to get off on him). that way your not killing double renown bobby and i still have 2 more. seductive promise is only an issue if your running your own MWnK as i can play my reins events to get him back with one of my other 2 MWnK. also remember that when you are trying to seductive promise me, well MWnK has 5 str and a power icon.

Maester_LUke said:

not banned, a start would be removing locations from his grasp (one of my favorite things to steal is a street of steel or street of sisters, deny opponent resources and hey make my own MWnK cheaper (let alone, bobby, mel, stanni, renly, axel, breinne...)

i think does not match doesn't help with what he was intended to do (have a negative impact on the reins events), non-unique characters might be the way to go as it hits reins but not a lot of well balanced tool box neutrals and can still hit OOH (which i'm not sure why he does....)

Lars said:

I'd suggest "after Reinforcements event card is played by an opponent ..." The original idea behind the effect seems to be as a counter to all those 3-STR, stealthy renown characters (or 4-STR Deadly tricons) that could be jumping in against you. By going this route, you keep their utility as "Reinforcement control," but you take away the combo/deck.

If he can't trigger off of your own Reinforcements, it makes both the gold cost and the Limited Response a bigger consideration for you. Do you hold back in case your opponent has a Reinforcement, or do you put the gold/LR opportunities to surer use? It also gives your opponent more options in "playing through" your MwNK than holding back their neutrals (they can hold back on their Reinforcements instead). It would also create an interesting avenue for negotiation and back-stabbing in Melee.

So that'd be my suggestion: take away the deck/combo option by adding the "by an opponent" restriction. Keep the power character/deterrent, but increase the interaction necessary for him to flex his full muscles.

ktom said:

Well put, and I agree. I also agree with the statement someone made about MWNK being less powerful as time goes on (as houses fill out the "holes" Lars mentioned with in-house cards). In any case, I think that running neutrals should be more risky than they have been in the past and MWNK sounds like it adds an appropriate level of risk. The real problem, as Lars highlighted, is that some houses currently have no other alternative in LCG. That will change with time, hopefully by the time GenCon rolls around (after three more chapter packs and an expansion).

The question I have now, and the issue that stood out the most when I read Lars' explanation, is whether the reinforcement events themselves are overpowered. Lacking any sort of event/triggered-effect cancel, it sounds like these guys are just brutal and are the real reasons why I might run MWNK. (I will probably never run MWNK out of fear of my opponent's MWNK, but I may consider running it to deal with other players' reinforcements.) Since I have only played with these reinforcements a bit I'll put the question to others: How have reinforcements affected the play environment? Do they feel extremely undercosted/overpowered? Also, do people typically run all three types? (Or five types if you count those that work only during summer/winter.)

Twn2dn said:

They haven't been huge for us, but that may be because we rarely run all three types. Think about it - why would you run the military one in a Stark deck? Or the intrigue one in a Lanni deck? As nice as stealth and renown are, if you need an extra military icon in an LCG Stark deck, something is up. Mostly, we only use 1 or 2 types per deck - to flesh out the weakest icon slot for the deck and the seasonal ones because 4-STR Deadly tricons are just cool.

Part of the pay out on the Reinforcement cards is what deck slot they take up. Do you treat them as events or characters when building your deck? Mostly, I treat them as events because you can't throw them on the flop. But as events, they end taking the place of a lot of control, counter and other effects. Let's face it, running a few copies of all 3-4 types is going to clog your deck up and limit a lot of what you can do before you start losing challenges.

Now, in a 5KE-era Targ deck, I'd be all over these things as characters who come into play during the Challenge phase. As is, they're great cards that don't always make the cut in practice. But some of that is simply my play style. If you are a control player, you'll have some trouble fitting them into your deck WITHOUT MwNK.

Out of bara i run at least 2 of each one with renown. Yeah sure i don't need the pow icon, but i'm never going to turn down stealth and renown in a power challenge in bara. with just 2 of each and bobby, renly and mel that's 10 renown at an average of 2 gold....

And yeah you don't need the extra Mil icon in Stark, but isn't a big complaint about stark the lack of solid renown (only one in house hcarcter with it actually printed in its text box).

Test them against a deck w/ 0 neutrals and 0 reins events of their own. Then test them against a deck with reins only, but you get MWnK. Finally test a deck w/ MWnK against a deck with Neutrals, reins, and no MWnK.

I've been running a count almost exactly the same as Ktom - 2-4 of the icons my House is weak in and maybe teh Summer or winter guys. You can't count them as character slots becuase you can't play them on set up and even then - you have to meet a set of conditions to play them (granted - extremely easy conditions to meet, except for the season ones).

These things are strong in LCG, but will get toned down when we get cancels with the gryejoy expansion (try them in standard and see how easy it is to get them off against the Queen of Thorns.) I don't think i could ever run a deck with 12-15 of them - that's practically my limit on events as is, and rarely will i ahev the gold to fully exploit them.

My 2 cents again, for what it is worth.

I agree it is bad for the game. I took the neutrals out of basically all my decks, except a couple of 0/1 costs ones. The perma-steal is always a bad mechanic...i thought we learned that Also, it is horrible for game design, in that any 2+ (maybe 3+ ?) nuetral card is fairly unplayable due to the risk, unless it was just a crazy card or cancels were available.

Taking those nuetrals out doesn't really hurt decks at this point very much. At least Lanni or Stark...and really every house has good cards at almost every cost point.

However, I am torn on whether it needs to go/be errata'd. I hate errata. It doesn't win games, assuming at least a few people do what I did. You have a pretty so-so character at the 4 spot...which is actually a detrement if your opponent just ends up playing one.

So, I am on the fence. I really don't think it is a problem card like cards that have been errata'd in the past. BUT, I would hate for this card to basically define the meta as long as it is legal.

should have done this earlier, but i didn't foresee the conversation keep going after an off-hand comment and especially not by so many people.

ktom said:

I just pulled all the neutrals out of my 4-5 decks that were made pre MWnK. Heres a quick and dirty look at what came out. Streets, Ravens, sam, Jon, Ghost, Aemon (will call these the Ktom approved toolbox group [KAT]). Then there was Selmy, Benjen, Littlefinger, Dayne, Mance, and Vale Refugees (we'll call this group Character Hole Filling [CHF]), and finally in limited amounts there was Tower of Joy, Den of the Wolf, Bringers of Law, Gilly, and Shae (dubbed Situational Needs Only [sNO]). I had been working on a lanni deck focused around mel and heads of a dwarf....but i'll OOH out of this discussion. This also doesn't even touch on the neutrals we are going to see in Kings Landing....

Lets say your meta only use KAT. well if you choose to use them anyway i'll happily steal anyone of them as they have been dubbed important enough to risk and therefore hurt more when i steal them from you. Conversly if you view it as "Oh no I only lost a raven" well now its harder for you to make it stop being summer which makes it easyier for me to play reins, i have an extra charcater to play aroudn with and more likely then not got a 3 character swing for 3 gold. I'm not heartbroken over it either. Now lets say you don't even include any cards from KAT, well then i've just taken away from you the highest level of toolbox the community has deemed acceptable. It might not be much in the eys of some...but its still an advanatge that i will gladly take before a card is played.

you start to include more of the groups MWnK starts to get exponteinally stronger. Yeah it might only be CHF... but now I am getting higher costed charcaters to steal and you still have the same hole in your deck that you started off with before you put the card in or you still have the same hole that charcater is no longer an optino to fill.

Getting into the SNO catagory...a lot of those cards are good for combos or different deck ideas...well w/ MWnK there is not going to be exploration of those ideas, the cost (losing a peiece of it) is exptremely prohibitive.

ktom said:

So its okay that every deck will by House X + MWnK/Reins? Then it becomes a race to out MWnK the other player....

I'd be okay if MWnK controlled Reins, but why do they go so much further? Why do they control all toolbox of every kind imaginable (~oh, wait i guess you can still milk of the poppy one of my non-reins, non-MwnK characters...or really surprise me and play a reset plot....)?

I'd be ecstatic if someone posted on here a way to reliably beat a reins deck without MWnK in LCG and shut me up...in fact i challenge everyone to do so. Maybe the Kings of Salt and Rock will provide an answer, but then the game will devolve into GJ verse MWnK...still not so much fun.

Lars, I'm glad you pulled this thread back up and posted Ktom's comments...I was thinking of doing the same but wasn't sure if other people were still interested. The following is just me thinking about how MWNK would theoretically impact our meta--I haven't actually played with this mechanic, so take my comments with a rather large grain of salt.

I think your generally right about the "tier 1" (or "KAT") toolbox, though I think I would swap out a couple of cards for our meta--I would say 2x Sam, 3x Carrion Birds, and 2 streets are most common, with 3-5 reinforcement events (which have the icons the house/deckbuild is lacking). At most, that means around 12 targets in most decks, though I think many decks will play with fewer.

In theory, this means MWNK impacts 20% of a typical deck (no matter the house), which is a huge portion, statistically speaking. Yet many of these cards are less useful after the 1st and 2nd rounds, meaning that MWNK's impact on any given game should be felt much less as the game goes on. For example, the streets are most beneficial before players have other locations out, and paying 2 gold to steal a 0-cost location after round 2 seems a bit inefficient, even if it does inconvenience your opponent. Sam is best to have out early to help get the more sustainable parts of a deck's draw engine going, so stealing him late in the game would be frustrating, but shouldn't slow down well-built decks (if stolen round 3 or later). In addition, Sam is disproportionately strong right now because there is so little draw in the LCG environment. Over the next few packs before GenCon, I expect to see more in-house draw become available. Even carrion birds, which are efficiently costed, are strong because they are cheap for setup and the first few rounds. Unless playing against a season deck, carrion birds seem to lose their luster as bigger characters with better effects come into play, and they consequently become claim soak in later rounds. With the exception of the reinforcement events, which arguably become more useful later in the game when gold is more plentiful, most of the toolbox cards you and I see regularly seem as if they would tend to be killed/discarded in the first few rounds anyway.

The fact that MWNK's effect takes quite a bit of gold, and that you have to draw into the card unless you use a plot for search, means that it MWNK should not be much of a threat before round 3 in most games. (Round 3 might even be a bit early in many games, unless you're holding back other characters/locations during marshalling.) This means MWNK's effect becomes most potent right as the toolbox characters you mentioned become less important. I don't mean that the toolbox cards become worthless late in the game (Sam's ability is always nice to have around), only that it is easier to play without such neutrals later in the game, and players can more easily hold such cards in hand to soak up lost intrigue claim if they draw them late in the game, or else play them to soak up the first lost military challenge.

Again, all of this is theoretical, and I imagine that if your meta plays with many of the the "tier 2" and "tier 3" neutrals that you mentioned then MWNK will likely be much more potent. (It could also be more potent against control decks that run neutral cards like Bringers of Law, though control decks should have other ways of dealing with MWNK late in the game.) I guess I'm just wondering, have you observed this trend--that MWNK influences a game less the more rounds it goes on? Also, what types of decks does MWNK seem to perform well against?

In the end, it might be like what Ktom mentioned in his "gather, ye clans" thread: The MWNK deck is just a deck that people will remain skeptical about until they get their butts beat badly by it. I admit I remain one of the skeptics, but the fact that 20% of most of my decks is, in theory, vulnerable to MWNK does make me stop and think hard about the mechanic. (I think I agree with Rings that perma-steal is a bad mechanic for this game and should be a very rare thing that comes with a high cost.) Nevertheless, the speed at which this would have to hit play to consistently slow down my non-control deckbuilds would likely be difficult to achieve (I think) without committing more than 20% of the deck to the mechanic or distorting the event count/gold curve. (Reinforcements are good, but I don't know that they're so good I would run nearly 20 events and ~12 locations for them.) And once you get the mechanic going, I can always just valar if need be.

Twn2dn said:

just wanted to make sure this got highlighted. Also, i want to add that MWnK adds that 20% to my deck. Its not that he just takes out 20% of your cards but that he gives me 20% more options as well (i don't think i can get away with calling that a 40% swing, can I?)

Twn2dn said:

Staton said a similar thing to me. He only wants one use out of his street. Makes sense, thins your deck, helps your gold curve, etc. But what i think a lot of people are missing is that as thrilled as you would be to get one use out of a card in your deck...imagine the impact it has on my deck to get one use out of your street. It effectively lets me have a 72 card deck (60 cards + 20% of your deck) while still having the same draw ratio of a 60 card deck (~Stag, wet your pants yet?). yes, 2 gold for a 0 gold reducer might seem inefficent at the time (does 3 gold for a character and a street?) but your actually even in cost to benefit: 2 gold for a 2 resource swing. Not only that, if your opponent is not Running MWnK you are going to have that street for a lot more then the one use staton was planning on...and you didn't even include the card in your deck. Plus imagine me having your street of steel/sisters after the reset you'r erelying on to squash my combo...it makes me drool quite honestly.

Twn2dn said:

I would apply the same exact argument to sam as i did to the streets. Your one or two uses out of him is nice...but my one or two uses out of him is a better play and helps me get further into my combo as gravy (and i even have my own ravens, the attachments, to fuel him after i steal him so its not like i wouldn't be able to use him after stealing him). I hope your right about more in house options...but kings landing is looking very gray to me (unless its going to be all lannister and baratheon...~which would change the LCG environment drastically). and by GenCon we will only have 3 Chapter packs and maybe a 60 card expansion (of which there are 7 plots, i'm guessing 4 GJ locations, and a bunch (5-10?) of GJ Knight of the Tumblestones type chcracters).

Twn2dn said:

I've done something wrong if i don't have the ability to get MWnK off by round 2. Seriously. Jeff, who runs them out of lanni can say the same thing. I often flop 3-4 cards with MWnK on the flop or 4-6 w/out dropping him. I can usually play at least one character and save 3 gold on the first turn if MWnK is on the flop. If i have to search for him then i can do it on the second turn. You better make sure your satisfied w/ your use of the neutrals by turn 2 (and i'll still be satisfied w/ any use i get out of them) or have killed them all off already. If you play your raven turn 2 and are going first don't initiate any challenges against me, because i will not only have your claim soak (thus forcing you to kill someone else) to use as I wish, but i will have at least a 3 str character in play w/ stealth and renown on top of it. As for intrigue claim...i'm not really worried about your hand and am happy that your drawing those neutrals instead of something else to play. The worst card in there from my point of view is guilty and i don't have to worry about that until dominance (i.e. after i get to pull off my tricks)

Twn2dn said:

see the first thread of this post. It does pretty good against most decks its played (my favorite game was when after 4 rounds my opponent showed me the barristen selmy he was not going to play w/out a gun to his head that was in his hand since pre-flop). bara summer gave me the most problems (after its owner pulled all the neutrals...), but i've tweaked the amount of native renown (and added mel) since then so i won't be as relient on drawing into reins events en mass. I've never had a problem w/ MWnK being on the board no matter what round it is. If, its later in the game and there are no neutrals on the table well thats 2 more gold i get to marshall, it means i no longer have to be tactical about adding more stelath and renown to my bored, and oh yeah i have a 5 STR army to help me win challenges/Dominance.

I agree with Ktom, and Dan - your analysis - without having played them too much is spot on.

Sam isn't a Tier 1 draw engine. he needs to be out very ealry to get max use - folks use the Raven search Plot early and Birds are usually in play Turn 1 and 2 (at the latest). If you don't draw sam early - he's just not that great. If you lose him mid game - its not a big deal.

I agree with staton on the streets. They are there for the flop, and if you steal one it just doens't really matter. Lars has an inetresting take on expanding teh size of your deck - but all perma steal is like that, and three gold for a 0 lcoation is just inefficient. I would almost alwys wat to spend the three gold to Marshall my own stuff in mod game as opposed to stealing your street.

Which brings me to the Birds - which are arguably the most likely target for MwNK to steal. I'll repeat my point from the torunmaent we had earlier this month. There were plenty of times in tow of the three games (one was against a Bear Island Stark deck) where I ahd a reinforcement in hand and MwNK on the baord - but the only target was Carrion Bird. In each case, it was a better play for me to drop my own three ocst stuff in Marshalling than to bank the money for stealing a Bird in challenge phase. Its just not worht it.

It looks like NY is playing very similar to chicago. I ahve never seen Tower of joy, Arthur dayne, Den of the wolf, Vale Refugees (WTF?), Core set Littlefinger, or Benjen. Never out of Core set only games. Aemon, Jon, Ghost and Selmy do make appearances - mostly Jon + ghost. That has become scarce sicne MwNK - given, and a poitn in Lars' favor. I'm the only one really palying summer tech around here (winter is MUCH more popular) so I am the only one he really uses Gilly consistently. As such - in NY - there really ahven't been enough targets for em to get crazy about this card. Birds, Streets and Sam - that's about it. And honestly, afetr my experiment with them - i pulled MwNK from my deck. i ahev better Bartheon adn targ cards in the four gold slot that i want to run.

I don't trust easy permanent steal. I definitely am not a fan of these guys, even just being in teh environment. But i am pretty sure i'm not going to lose any matches becuase my opponent gets the combo off against me, and I'm nto convinced they belong in every deck. if neutrals becoem a lot more popular, my evaluation may change.

Stag Lord said:

see the thing is i don't need the combo to have an advantage while running these guys.

Weren't you the one complaining about in house renown in bara? wouldn't an easy fix be to run jon/selmy/ghost? or reins events of your own? if you want to do either one you have to have MWnK in your deck (i'd be okay if MWnK affected one choice or the other...but why does he control both choices?). If you choose not to do that then by including MWnK i get an advantage over you because i now have more renown then you plus more stealth in my bara deck or equal renown in my lanni deck (isn't that a scary thought? draw, control, gold, and renown...).

People keep saying they don't think not having access to neutrals will be that big of a deal. or losing only a bird or a street is not game altering in the long run or that winter might slow them down. Give me a deck build, please. We here in SE PA and DE are too stupid to see anything else.

Stag Lord said:

Maybe its just my view of the effect, but 3 gold for a 3 str character w/ stealth and renown is something we can agree is a good thing right? so why is 3 gold for said character, plus your opponents resources (again a 2 resource swing) inefficient? Is 3 gold for a tricon 4 STR Army w/ deadly inefficient? does it get less efficient if you add a 2 resource swing or a 2 character swing on top of it???