Hi there,

I participated in a tournament yesterday and took second place! However, a couple things happened in the final round that I wanted to clear up in case I encounter them in the future. Things went pretty badly for me in the final. My attack dice just kept rolling blanks and I was down to Corran Horn in the E-Wing without having destroyed any of the other guy's ships when time got called, so we only had the rest of the current round to play. Two of the other guy's ships had taken enough damage that I could have possibly pulled it out with Corran's double shot, so I went for it and charged them head on. Here were the two things that seemed kinda shady to me:

1) During my opponent's movement phase, he sent put one of his ships (defender) through a maneuver that may have caused a bump (on a tie fighter). He had taken the tie fighter off the board and marked it with a range 1 movement template. I didn't object to that. My problem is that when I said there might be a bump (which would have left his defender trapped on an asteroid), he insisted there was no problem, then took both his movement template and his marker off the board without placing the tie back down first. After that, he put the tie down in a spot that was very snug next to his defender. Things had been going so badly with the dice for me at that point that I more or less just gave up on this, but what should I have done?

2) The second thing came up in the combat phase. Corran surprisingly made it through all of the enemy shots (he had initiative) and I got three damage on the defender. I had hit it three times previously (once with ion pulse missile, once with ion cannon turret, and once with the e-wing for one damage). On one of those, he must have not noticed his shield token and put a damage card down next to the ship instead. I don't think this was intentional, but he refused to let it count because "I don't know how it got there." At that point, I already knew I was walking out with the ship I wanted and I already own the transport, so I just conceded. But could I have argued on that? I know there's the missed opportunity rule, so I'm a little unsure. His normal tie fighter was damaged and also in my arc, so with a decent roll on Corran's ability, I might have won for points in the end if that defender had dropped.

Anyway, I still had a good time and walked away with the ship I want, but I would really like to be clear on what should have happened here in case I ever run into that again. Thanks!

1) During my opponent's movement phase, he sent put one of his ships (defender) through a maneuver that may have caused a bump (on a tie fighter). He had taken the tie fighter off the board and marked it with a range 1 movement template. I didn't object to that.

You should have. The TIE Fighter did not activate. Nobody may touch it.

2) The second thing came up in the combat phase. Corran surprisingly made it through all of the enemy shots (he had initiative) and I got three damage on the defender. I had hit it three times previously (once with ion pulse missile, once with ion cannon turret, and once with the e-wing for one damage). On one of those, he must have not noticed his shield token and put a damage card down next to the ship instead. I don't think this was intentional, but he refused to let it count because "I don't know how it got there."

The card is there. No reason to disregard it. Especially if noone remembers how it got there.

When in doubt, call over the TO. In a friendly game I would have just let it slide, but that's some sketchy stuff to be doing when prizes are on the line

Yup

Your playing against one of those know it all sore loser's, who will make up any story in order to turn the game in their favor, and I'd they even get the feeling your won't argue back, they go even further.

In your case you should have brought the TO explain to him what took place and explain how he convientely took the original marker off, and set it down.

I can understand how it can get irrating,and you just want to get it over with, but if you don't stand up to those types of players they will just do it again

Two things I hate in this world the most and they is thief,and cheaters, and in a way there is not much of a difference between the two

Also as for what happened with the combat phase, I would say I don't know, but it's there. Your not responsible to hold his hand.

I'd bring up the misopportunities rule and say can't be helped. You have to be more careful then Again bring it to the To attention,and tell him to keep an eye on him. Chances are he will do it again, and when he gets caught, hopefully get the boot. That would be awesome.

I know when I play if it's really close and even though I know there was no crash, if I'm moving my fighter and accidentally bump the other due to shaky hands I just say I bumped it, for lack of argument sake.

Or if measurerange and we are kind of undecided, and then I accidentally nudge one. Then I'll say to hell with it, now nudged it,so go ahead. Sucks but they is the player I am.

Lots of others would probably do that on purpose

1) During my opponent's movement phase, he sent put one of his ships (defender) through a maneuver that may have caused a bump (on a tie fighter). He had taken the tie fighter off the board and marked it with a range 1 movement template. I didn't object to that.

You should have. The TIE Fighter did not activate. Nobody may touch it.

FYI this is a pretty common way to mark a ship's position when it is in the way of a movement template on a crowded board. I also see no reason to object to this technique - although it is not officially sanctioned, I think it is more accurate than holding the template above the board and eyeballing it.

Having said that, it was absolutely inappropriate to remove the marker before placing the marked ship back down, especially since you had voiced the opinion that there might be a bump involved.

Yeah, I had no issue with the way he marked it, but when he pulled everything off the board, it was impossible to settle the rules dispute. I'm curious if anyone's ever seen that happen before. What would the implication be of pulling a ship off the board without marking its spot?

Yeah, I had no issue with the way he marked it, but when he pulled everything off the board, it was impossible to settle the rules dispute. I'm curious if anyone's ever seen that happen before. What would the implication be of pulling a ship off the board without marking its spot?

Not sure. There is no ship on the board, so it was destroyed earlier?

No, the tie fighter he pulled off only had one damage on it. He'd left the 1 straight template to mark it while he completed his maneuver with the defender. When I questioned whether there was a bump, he put the defender where he wanted it, then pulled off the defender's maneuver template and the 1 straight he'd been using to mark where the tie fighter was. At that point, I called him on that and he told me he was right, then put his tie fighter back down in roughly the same spot it had been before.

Had I pushed back on the damage card on my second concern, the defender would have been dead and I may have been able to finish the tie with Corran Horn's second shot ability and then win by points. What I'm curious about is if I would have even had to. If you pull a ship off the board and leave no means of identifying where it was, can you even put it back? Could I have just called a TO over and ended the whole thing right there?

Just to clarify, I ultimately conceded, so that's that. I just figure if there's another tournament in the future, I might end up playing the same guy again, and I want to be clearer on the rules going into it.

Thanks to everyone who replied so far.

That guy sounds like a bit of a scumbag, we all do make mistakes with removing the 1 marker by accident and not thinking and trying to hurry due to the time limit (unless slow playing for time - you can also call a TO Over and complain about that) but due from his later behaviour he is most definitely a scumbag.

If I was you I would of called the guy on both occasions, especially on when you called on the bump and he for sure deliberately removed his one marker.

I would 100% of called him on the shield on the defender, as Imps have no way to regain shields if they take hull damage, so yes, if you feel someone is cheating or playing unfairly do call the TO over, and hopefully you can get others on the next table/any spectators to back you on your claim.

I had a friend lose getting to top 4 in the UK nationals due to a guy slow playing and didn't call him on it.

Yeah, I had no issue with the way he marked it, but when he pulled everything off the board, it was impossible to settle the rules dispute. I'm curious if anyone's ever seen that happen before. What would the implication be of pulling a ship off the board without marking its spot?

Then is call over the TO and explain everything, just like that and I would like to think he will agree with you

Sorry for all the typos. **** auto correct on my phone

If you pull a ship off the board and leave no means of identifying where it was, can you even put it back? Could I have just called a TO over and ended the whole thing right there?

There isn't a rule for how to handle these situations except that players are expected not to abuse the margin of error when dealing with imprecision (I think it's in the tournament rules, but I don't have them on hand right now). In one tournament this weekend, my elbow knocked over a ship, and it ended up practically across the board from where it should be. I placed it in what I thought to be the correct position and orientation and made sure that my opponent agreed. In your case, had I been running the event, I would have likely ruled in your favor since you raised an objection and your opponent either recklessly (at best) or deceitfully (at worst) removed his marker. Generally speaking, if an agreement can't be reached, you can roll off as described in the core rules.

I am not sure I understand your second situation. Was your opponent trying to use a shield that should have been gone, or was he trying to ignore a damage card that should not have been there? In either case, if you can both recall what the state of the ship ought to be, I think you should adjust to that configuration. While there might be a mistake in here, it is definitely not a missed opportunity. Missed opportunities are abilities that you can optionally activate but forgot or chose not to. Dealing a damage card when you have a shield (and are supposed to suffer damage, i.e., not due to Proton Bombs or Jek's ability) is not a missed opportunity but a violation of the rules and should be corrected if possible. In your case, it sounds like your three previous attacks should have removed three shields, and your final attack should have dealt three cards.

If you pull a ship off the board and leave no means of identifying where it was, can you even put it back? Could I have just called a TO over and ended the whole thing right there?

There isn't a rule for how to handle these situations except that players are expected not to abuse the margin of error when dealing with imprecision (I think it's in the tournament rules, but I don't have them on hand right now). In one tournament this weekend, my elbow knocked over a ship, and it ended up practically across the board from where it should be. I placed it in what I thought to be the correct position and orientation and made sure that my opponent agreed. In your case, had I been running the event, I would have likely ruled in your favor since you raised an objection and your opponent either recklessly (at best) or deceitfully (at worst) removed his marker. Generally speaking, if an agreement can't be reached, you can roll off as described in the core rules.

I am not sure I understand your second situation. Was your opponent trying to use a shield that should have been gone, or was he trying to ignore a damage card that should not have been there? In either case, if you can both recall what the state of the ship ought to be, I think you should adjust to that configuration. While there might be a mistake in here, it is definitely not a missed opportunity. Missed opportunities are abilities that you can optionally activate but forgot or chose not to. Dealing a damage card when you have a shield (and are supposed to suffer damage, i.e., not due to Proton Bombs or Jek's ability) is not a missed opportunity but a violation of the rules and should be corrected if possible. In your case, it sounds like your three previous attacks should have removed three shields, and your final attack should have dealt three cards.

In the second situation, I don't think he did anything intentionally wrong, I think when I hit his defender for the third damage, he hadn't realized the shield token was there and put a damage card down instead. Then, when I did three damage in one shot, he said that he couldn't have a damage because there was still a shield token (in spite of the damage card played right on his pilot card) and said "I don't know how that got there." At that point I was just over it, already knew I was getting the ship I wanted, and conceded.

From the responses, it sounds like we should have talked the TO and probably would have rolled off on the potential bump in the first situation. In the second situation, I should have appealed to the TO, had the damage card and a shield removed to make everything correct, then resolved the three damage I dealt.

The defender would have blown up, and then I'd have had a range 1 shot through an asteroid at his tie fighter with 1 damage on it from before. 4 attack vs 4 defense to deal 2 damage. Not amazing odds, but definitely possible. I'll be more vigilant next time. Thanks for the help!

It's an interesting question.

Rules wise, there's nothing that allows you to remove a ship from the table, but a lot of us use the 1 forward as a marker because it's quicker and easier, and most times more accurate. Less likely to move something in the process.

But in those cases it's normally to measure past something that's in the way. In this case I wouldn't of let him pick up the tie in the first place. It doesn't sound like there was a need to remove it in the first place, if it was in the way, that's because it would of cause an overlap.

Next time, I'd tell the person he has to put the ship back on the table, or at least that you'll mark it and remove the marker when he's done making the maneuver.

In this case it sounds like the guy knew he made a bad maneuver and was trying to pull one over on you. In that case I would of gotten the TO and explained what the guy did. As a TO, I would of placed the Tie in such a way that it would of caused the Defender to overlap and then the guy has to deal with it accordingly.

The reason for this is, if someone pulls the marker away before replacing it, you have know way of knowing if there would of been an overlap or not. That means either he knew there would be, and was cheating or else it wouldn't of. Without proof either way I'd assume worse case for the guy who at the very least caused the problem in the first place.

With the damage card... Unless the Defender had some way of regaining a shield or you have some way of dealing a card directly, bypassing shields, then it shouldn't be there.

If he can't regen shileds, but still had one, there's no way you could of gotten damage though without some sort of special effect. That of course assumes he didn't slide a shield back onto the card at some point...

Again, I think the damage card was just an honest mistake on his part early in the game. I know I hit the thing three times early on, and it only has three shields. Given that he had a shield token and a damage card on it, I think he just screwed up and put down a damage too early instead of removing the last shield. Maybe I should have watched more closely to make sure that he didn't make a mistake, and that's my missed opportunity for not policing him well enough.

Again, I think the damage card was just an honest mistake on his part early in the game. I know I hit the thing three times early on, and it only has three shields. Given that he had a shield token and a damage card on it, I think he just screwed up and put down a damage too early instead of removing the last shield. Maybe I should have watched more closely to make sure that he didn't make a mistake, and that's my missed opportunity for not policing him well enough.

I disagree that your inattention was a "missed opportunity." As I mentioned above, I think you should have made your case for three hits (to the TO, if necessary) and returned the ship to the correct state (no shields, no cards). That is a really easy situation to correct, and the fact that he fought you on it would suggest less-than-honest play from across the table, at least based on the details that you have presented.

But in those cases it's normally to measure past something that's in the way. In this case I wouldn't of let him pick up the tie in the first place. It doesn't sound like there was a need to remove it in the first place, if it was in the way, that's because it would of cause an overlap.

It could have been that the Defender might have moved past the TIE, or not quite gotten ahead of it. So not all that uncommon to have to remove it like that.

The only reason I don't like using templates to mark and remove ships is because it's painfully common to see people accidentally pick up the marker when they're cleaning things up. But it's still the best way to do it. If there's a serious question about whether it'll bump, I'll try and place the template to mark the base in a way that you can tell, without the base being there, if you're going to overlap or not. Ideally, you should be able to tell if you cleared it or not before you put the other ship back in place.

Both the situations fall into what I think of as "WTF Game States" - cases where something happens and the best you can do is clean it up. If I'd been running it and had to make a ruling, I probably would have diced off for the collision, and swapped the damage card for the shield (as Sideslip suggests), possibly after checking to see where else the damage could have come from. But regardless, if it was on the ship, it was on the ship.

Yeah, that pretty much fits with my assessment. I still wouldn't say that I think he intentionally caused a problem with the damage card, but if he had given in, then one throw of the dice would have ended up determining the winner rather than him taking it by default. He had every incentive to dig in his heels and make a scene. He started to when the TO backed me on the damage card, and I could tell it was going to get ugly.

In this particular tournament, the third and fourth place guys had to leave early, so we'd divvied up the four ships in advance of the final match, and I already have a transport (the BIG prize). Faced with walking away with the ship I wanted (E-Wing!) without getting in a big argument vs. having a big argument and then also getting a duplicate of a ship I only need one of, conceding made more sense than ruining everyone's night. Thanks for the analysis though, I'll bear it in mind if I ever run into a similar scenario (and it's also kind of vindicating)!

I sent in this problem to FFG and here is the response I got back.

My thoughts:

1. I understand marking a ship and then moving it out of the template's way. If you think there was a chance they "bumped" I'd have said he should put his TIE back on the board (temporarily sitting on movement template) to see if an overlap actually occurs. Playing fast and sloppy you'll need to go with what FFG said and that probably has you being "the final word" player in this instance.

2. There was a damage card on the ship but he chose to ignore it? That is just plain WRONG. Maybe he took a card when he should have removed a token or maybe he hit a Proton Bomb (never mind you don't have any) or otherwise picked up a card beneath his shield. Perhaps the argument should be made that HE forget to remove a shield token when he should have; say there are two uncancelled [hit] results and he has one shield token left so he'll take a card when everything is done but he should also have removed the shield token which somehow got missed.

A ship may track "damage" via shield tokens and cards. It is perfectly possible to have BOTH on the same ship. Just because you can't explain a card when there is still a shield that does NOT mean the CARD is the offender as the SHIELD could also be there when it isn't supposed to be there. To me you should have called the TO and the "right" call would have been to "play it as they lie" because having Shields and Cards at the same time is possible.