The Han Solo Trilogy specifically talks about using the belly gun if they needed to on the Falcon and that there were interrupts to prevent the landing gear from being hit. That's a ship powered up imo though. The retractable auto fire blaster in ESB to me is a personal scale ground defense option that was self powered for ground defense.

So, here's one thing to think about. If they were to power up and fire that Quad Laser Cannon at personal-scale targets, that would be 50 points of damage per shot, and the overpenetration on those blasts would be enough to do major damage to wherever they parked their ship. And that probably wouldn't be a good thing.

You don't want to be shooting your 105mm howitzer at individual ground targets. You want to use something more suitable for that purpose, like an automated ground defense system. That AGDS might not cost any Hard Points, but I sure would make them spend the money to buy the weapons, the fire control droid, and the Mechanics skill checks to make all that fit together. Maybe that could "share" a hardpoint with Smuggling Compartments, if you wanted the AGDS to be hidden and more difficult to detect.

And I'd probably reduce the Encumbrance of cargo that they can carry by a small but non-zero amount, too.

I might even rule that you can't fire starship-class weapons at closer than Close range, much like the situation with Gunnery. And if personal-scale weapons can hit them, then you are by definition "closer" than Close range.

Of course, these all sound like House Rules to me, and it would be up to each GM to decide what they want to do and how they want to handle things.

[ Edit -- correct speling misteaks. ;-) ]

That's rubbish for a full HP. One HP is a quad laser cannon, or improved shields, or an ECM suite, or smuggling compartments. Not some piddly little gun that is irrelevant on the planetary scale, even if it kills stormies good.

Seriously, consider the fact that you are placing equal "space" value on a mounted HBR as you are a proton torpedo launcher or quad-laser turret.

So, don't attach one to your ship if you're playing in my game?

The PC's looted it from Stormtroopers and then wanted to attach to the belly of their ship. Whether or not it has planetary scale value doesn't matter. It costs them nothing but the HP so far and if they want to hide it they will be looking at a pretty modest Mechanics check and maybe 500 credits for parts. Their YT still has HPs sitting empty and RAW allows them to upgrade later if they decide to.

Seriously, consider the fact that "space" and "Hard Points" are pretty vague in EotE.

If the PCs have a light repeating blaster, then they would be better off not attaching it to the ship. If it's not attached to the ship, it can be carried around with them and used on bad guys who are anywhere the PCs go. If it's attached you can only use it on opponents just outside the boarding ramp.

All campaigns are different. Maybe yours has boarding ramp fights all the time, but consider that the PC who stands on the ramp and fires the LRB is being just as effective as having that same gun permanently attached to the ship. Except the heavy gunner can use the same weapon in the next fight that's not in a very specific place. The only advantage to permanently mounting the weapon is the "coolness factor" of imitating the movies.

Charging the PCs to be situationally cool is just mean.

How often do people have hanger bay fights anyway?

I don't know. How often do tavern fights break out in an old D&D session? Running back to the ship while being chased is actually a pretty common scenario of scif RPG's. At least in my experience.

Not limiting to only a "hangar bay" but a fight near any parked ship, since that is what we are discussing:

Episode I: 3. Jedi Cruiser would have liked to shoot back if it didn't explode in the first round of the battle. Jedi v. Sith fight outside the Naboo cruiser. Naboo hangar battle.

Episode II: 2. Jango vs. Obi-Wan fight on Kamino by the Slave 1. Jedi duel at the end with Dooku's docked ship nearby.

Episode III: 2. Hangar fight in Grievous' ship. Obi-Anakin duel begins by a docked ship.

Episode IV: 2. Falcon taking off being shot at by Stormtroopers (perhaps this made them later install the LBR?), fight outside the Falcon when fleeing the Death Star.

Episode V: 2. The Falcon Hoth hangar fight. The try-to-get Han fight on Cloud City by the Slave 1.

Episode VI: 0. Hmmm. I guess they got tired of the cliche?

Eleven fights with a docked ship nearby in 3 6 movies. I think it would not give a sense of a Star Wars campaign if the GM didn't throw in some battles near docked ships from time to time.

I think you are trying to refute my argument, Sturn. But I think you might be unintentionally supporting it. Potential is not value. If it were JaMarcus Russell would be famous from something else.

In all the scenes you list how often does a minion killing blaster come up?

One.

Just friggin' Destiny point it, already. The antipersonnel blaster is a "trick left in her sweetheart" not a real weapon.

The more I consider the arguments, the more inclined I am to favor the Destiny Point side.

One of the advantages to this method, is that the "trick" is a little more self-regulating - in that the PCs are less apt to over-use it. After all, if it were instead a "real attachment", its up for constant application in any manner of scenario involving people in and around the vessel. But instead requiring a DP to activate, means the players may consider other options first. This becomes a once in a great while ace-up-the-sleeve to pull out when the going gets really tough.

At least that's how I see, WRT the experiences at our table. Things that require flipping a DP tend to be considered before doing. Those points are an important, and sometimes scarce, resource.

If the PCs have a light repeating blaster, then they would be better off not attaching it to the ship. If it's not attached to the ship, it can be carried around with them and used on bad guys who are anywhere the PCs go. If it's attached you can only use it on opponents just outside the boarding ramp.

All campaigns are different. Maybe yours has boarding ramp fights all the time, but consider that the PC who stands on the ramp and fires the LRB is being just as effective as having that same gun permanently attached to the ship. Except the heavy gunner can use the same weapon in the next fight that's not in a very specific place. The only advantage to permanently mounting the weapon is the "coolness factor" of imitating the movies.

Charging the PCs to be situationally cool is just mean.

What you're describing are two very different things. If a PC is holding and firing the gun, it's going to be using the Ranged (Heavy) skill, the PC is going to need to be vulnerable in order to fire it, and the boarding ramp is going to need to be opened.

If, instead, it's a ship weapon, the ship can be completely locked down and the skill used is Gunnery.

I think you are trying to refute my argument, Sturn. But I think you might be unintentionally supporting it. Potential is not value. If it were JaMarcus Russell would be famous from something else.

In all the scenes you list how often does a minion killing blaster come up?

One.

Just friggin' Destiny point it, already. The antipersonnel blaster is a "trick left in her sweetheart" not a real weapon.

You just moved the goal posts from....

How often do people have hanger bay fights anyway?

I was never arguing that a "minion killing blaster" popping out of a ship was a common thing. I was arguing against your first point, the one posted just above. There's still 11 of those.

Would you agree with these other DP uses?

My spaceship has movement detection sensors for anything coming within 50 meters.

My spaceship has an underwater repulsion system.

My spaceship has an electrical defense field that shocks anyone touching it for personal scale damage.

It's that slippery slope I'm trying to avoid. Using a DP to pull a grappling hook out of your backpack is quite different then using one to suddenly add a weapon to your spaceship.

Once you let your players use a DP for that light repeating blaster to pop out and go to town, what happens the next time they want to use it? Do you say no? Does it suddenly go poof? You are forced to telling them you must use a DP to use that piece of equipment we've previously determined was attached to your ship. Once a player says he uses a DP to pull a grappling hook out of his backpack, he's probably going to jot it down on his inventory and have it for free then on.

For the record, I'm not for only using HP to add such a defense system. The arguments above of making it a piece of equipment you have to spend credits on and install with a Mechanic check (without HP expenditure) is valid also.

Are we keeping the discussion framed within the "Using a DP for deus ex machina is always at the discretion of the GM" rule? Or are we playing in a vacuum? Because otherwise there's no common ground.

Would you agree with these other DP uses?

My spaceship has movement detection sensors for anything coming within 50 meters.

Yes, if it's important for the plot and moves the story.

Would you agree with these other DP uses?

My spaceship has an underwater repulsion system.

Yes, if it's important for the plot and moves the story.

Would you agree with these other DP uses?

My spaceship has an electrical defense field that shocks anyone touching it for personal scale damage.

Yes, if it's important for the plot and moves the story.

I think you are trying to refute my argument, Sturn. But I think you might be unintentionally supporting it. Potential is not value. If it were JaMarcus Russell would be famous from something else.

In all the scenes you list how often does a minion killing blaster come up?

One.

Just friggin' Destiny point it, already. The antipersonnel blaster is a "trick left in her sweetheart" not a real weapon.

You're missing the point.

Sturn isn't attempting to refute your point (I don't think). You asked a question regarding how often we see shootouts in a hanger bay. Sturn, went through the films and listed scenes where we see a fight take place around a parked ship, which is an answer to your question, although he expanded the scope a bit. I think that expansion is reasonable because it supports the idea that a variety of scenes take place in locations where a personal scale weapon might be useful. We don't see a repeat of the scene in Empire because how lame would it be if Han and the Falcon only had that one trick? Just like we only see the "Hide on the back of the Star Destroyer" trick once. We only see the "inside the asteroid" trick once. These all serve to illustrate Han as a clever guy with all sorts of cunning tricks up his sleeve. Seeing the same solution multiple times would be poor writing.

It's that slippery slope I'm trying to avoid. Using a DP to pull a grappling hook out of your backpack is quite different then using one to suddenly add a weapon to your spaceship.

Once you let your players use a DP for that light repeating blaster to pop out and go to town, what happens the next time they want to use it? Do you say no? Does it suddenly go poof? You are forced to telling them you must use a DP to use that piece of equipment we've previously determined was attached to your ship. Once a player says he uses a DP to pull a grappling hook out of his backpack, he's probably going to jot it down on his inventory and have it for free then on.

For the record, I'm not for only using HP to add such a defense system. The arguments above of making it a piece of equipment you have to spend credits on and install with a Mechanic check (without HP expenditure) is valid also.

This is why I am not a supporter of the "just flip a DP" strategy. I think it opens the door to circumvent the RAW methods of finding/purchasing weapons and gear. Could I flip a DP to get a Disruptor Rifle? Just find it in a locker someplace and all of a sudden I've got one for the duration?

I don't really see this as an either/or situation. There is nothing wrong with the Hail Mary use of a DP for something like this, however, if the players want to use a DP consistently for the same thing or their lack of preparation, we might have to talk. If a group wants a formalized system that uses a HP, or not, and they want to pay to install or build it, nothing wrong with that either. I wouldn't want DP usage to get to the point where some potential skill rolls are being ignored though, or players should be planning and just don't bother to because they think they can just DP what they need for a lack of bothering.

Would you agree with these other DP uses?

My spaceship has movement detection sensors for anything coming within 50 meters.

Yes, if it's important for the plot and moves the story.

Would you agree with these other DP uses?

My spaceship has an underwater repulsion system.

Yes, if it's important for the plot and moves the story.

Would you agree with these other DP uses?

My spaceship has an electrical defense field that shocks anyone touching it for personal scale damage.

Yes, if it's important for the plot and moves the story.

So, if I played in your campaign, eventually I could have a starship with Electro Defense, Pop-Up Light Repeater, Submersible w/Underwater Propulsion, and Proximity Movement Alarms? All of that for free, no credit cost, no hard point cost, only after a few sessions of play in which I brought up a good reason for them and expended a single Destiny Point? Those are permanent additions to the craft any player would jot down and remind you of later, freely to use without a Destiny Point expenditure.

See my point? That could get out of hand over time.

Let's get away from the OP about the pop-up repeating blaster. What if a player suggested when running out of ammo, that his Blaster had a double-sized magazine using a DP. Later, when he drops it down a hole, he uses a DP to mention he had a GPS tag on it. Both of these would be cool things to add to a weapon, but not for free with use of a DP. There's a system in play to add attachments, so use that instead. That system has limitations for a reason. Freely allowing attachments to a ship, weapon, armor, etc through DP use, instead of something like HP or credit expenditure, is potentially circumventing another game mechanic and has no set limitations. This begs for the GM to make sure to keep it in line, which is feasible. From my experience, it would be much simpler to cut that exploitation off from the get go by saying, "Yes you can add it but it costs 3,000 credits and a hard Mechanic check" or "Sure, but it will take up one of your hard points". The player knows from the start there are limits and can't use a recurring Destiny Point pool to get those benefits instead.

Eta: As a player, adding a Light Repeater Pop-up Auto Targeting Blaster permanently to my ship is well worth the expenditure of the GM later downgrading a single action roll of mine or another players'. That's a no brainer. Adding the same item for 3,000 credits or loss of an HP is something I would need to consider.

This is why I am not a supporter of the "just flip a DP" strategy. I think it opens the door to circumvent the RAW methods of finding/purchasing weapons and gear. Could I flip a DP to get a Disruptor Rifle? Just find it in a locker someplace and all of a sudden I've got one for the duration?

I'm noticing my general question, WRT how deus ex machina is applied, went unanswered. Though I will take it, from this response in particular, some of you feel the GM be damned. A PC is entitled to whatever they want, whenever they want, just because they flipped a token*.

*As opposed to the rule in the book, wherein a player doesn't actually flip any token until the GM says its OK and allows the proposed application to advance the story. But why let things like rules get in the way of a good hyperbole...

And to be even more clear, I will respond to one very specific part of your post...

I think it opens the door to circumvent the RAW methods of finding/purchasing weapons and gear.

You are aware RAW allows this very thing, are you not? The example on page 28 of the CRB illustrates how a Destiny Point can be used to circumvent the very thing you claim should not be circumvented...

You are aware RAW allows this very thing, are you not? The example on page 28 of the CRB illustrates how a Destiny Point can be used to circumvent the very thing you claim should not be circumvented...

(I'm not Dbuntu, btw, just replying to the discussion) I understand your point and agree with it. But of course there is a, "But". The examples in the book are pulling rebreathers (Breath Mask, 25 credits each) out of the ship's locker and a Stimpack (25 credits) out of a backpack. That's a little different then a Light Repeater (2,250 credits) or a Heavy Repeater (6,000 credits) not just being pulled out of a locker, but already mounted on a ship with some sort of cockpit or computer controls installed. One in effect post-concludes that you had purchased a cheap item and put it on board or in a backpack. The other post-concludes that you had purchased a very expensive item and did the work to have it installed. That's stretching the DP effect quite a bit from the examples in the book.

As a GM, I would suggest always making your player pay for it. "Ok I use a DP and find those Extra Reloads in my pack that I had forgotten I had purchased at Gizmo's last week". "That's fine, make sure to mark 25 credits off of your sheet since you now recall doing that".

And to answer the deus ex machina question, it's of course completely up to each GM what they allow and don't. One GM can of course interpret page 28 their way and allow new systems be installed on a ship with the flip of a Destiny token, while others won't. Neither is wrong. I don't think anyone is saying you MUST play the way WE do! We are suggesting, hey, look at it this way, it might be better and prevent some issues down the road.

(I'm not Dbuntu, btw, just replying to the discussion) I understand your point and agree with it. But of course there is a, "But". The examples in the book are pulling rebreathers (Breath Mask, 25 credits each) out of the ship's locker and a Stimpack (25 credits) out of a backpack.

At lease, "Where do you draw the line?" is a legit argument. And one that cannot be answered by anyone here. At least not for others. Each table has their own idea of where that line is.

Cuz, if a guy can pull out 4-6 rebreathers, can he do the same for 2 or 3 frag grenades? Those are only 50cr each? That's equivalent cost, after all...

As a GM, I would suggest always making your player pay for it. "Ok I use a DP and find those Extra Reloads in my pack that I had forgotten I had purchased at Gizmo's last week". "That's fine, make sure to mark 25 credits off of your sheet since you now recall doing that".

What if the PC can afford to have had a Pop-up LRB installed last time they were in port?

Seriously, consider the fact that "space" and "Hard Points" are pretty vague in EotE.

I do. It's vague but not that vague. I put having a useful-in-personal-scale-only weapon built into their ship to be on the same level as comparing Hidden Storage to actually buying Smuggling Compartments. The former is small and has some uses; the latter occupies a much larger amount of space for significantly better benefit with the ship. Clearly 1 HP is a decent amount of space above and beyond a single personal-scale gun and the hydraulics for it.

You've costed that equivalent to a proton torpedo launcher or other really good, space-combat-applicable mods, and I can't get behind that.

So, if I played in your campaign, eventually I could have a starship with Electro Defense, Pop-Up Light Repeater, Submersible w/Underwater Propulsion, and Proximity Movement Alarms? All of that for free, no credit cost, no hard point cost, only after a few sessions of play in which I brought up a good reason for them and expended a single Destiny Point? Those are permanent additions to the craft any player would jot down and remind you of later, freely to use without a Destiny Point expenditure.

See my point? That could get out of hand over time.

Let's get away from the OP about the pop-up repeating blaster. What if a player suggested when running out of ammo, that his Blaster had a double-sized magazine using a DP. Later, when he drops it down a hole, he uses a DP to mention he had a GPS tag on it. Both of these would be cool things to add to a weapon, but not for free with use of a DP. There's a system in play to add attachments, so use that instead. That system has limitations for a reason. Freely allowing attachments to a ship, weapon, armor, etc through DP use, instead of something like HP or credit expenditure, is potentially circumventing another game mechanic and has no set limitations. This begs for the GM to make sure to keep it in line, which is feasible. From my experience, it would be much simpler to cut that exploitation off from the get go by saying, "Yes you can add it but it costs 3,000 credits and a hard Mechanic check" or "Sure, but it will take up one of your hard points". The player knows from the start there are limits and can't use a recurring Destiny Point pool to get those benefits instead.

Eta: As a player, adding a Light Repeater Pop-up Auto Targeting Blaster permanently to my ship is well worth the expenditure of the GM later downgrading a single action roll of mine or another players'. That's a no brainer. Adding the same item for 3,000 credits or loss of an HP is something I would need to consider.

Honestly, I don't disagree with your original argument. My main point, which I admit I did a poor job making, is that what's fine at one person's table is not fine at another.

As you mentioned up-thread, the GM has final call on destiny point use when creating facts (With the exception of talents such as Utility Belt). I would probably never allow a player to spend a DP to produce a weapon beyond a simple grenade, a primitive weapon, or a basic slugthrower. Why? because having a better weapon probably wouldn't do much drive the plot. And even in the examples just listed off, it would have to make sense and drive the story beyond the fact that a character wants to make something explode.

I do a lot of work to manage my players expectations outside of game time, they know that I am more likely to approve destiny point "Facts" if they are plot appropriate and the story isn't going to suffer for it. If my players wanted to flip a destiny point to have some some sort of Falcon-like anti personnel weapon pop out, I very well might allow it if the odds were stacked against them and they needed a way to drive off the encroaching threat for just few more rounds. I personally do not have any problems telling my players before they flip the point that the anti-personnel is just for this scene because it's fun and the tension is high, but is not something that is available to them the rest of the game. If I didn't want to take away something I just said was there, you can bet I'll be looking for threatdespair on the part of the PCs, or advantages/triumphs on the part of the NPCs to take out that system.

tl;dr: Destiny point restrictions will certainly vary from table to table, and from campaign to campaign. With my players, we sit down not just to play a game, but to tell a fun story, so we try and keep that in mind with how we spend our destiny points.

As you mentioned up-thread, the GM has final call on destiny point use when creating facts (With the exception of talents such as Utility Belt). I would probably never allow spend a DP to have produce a weapon beyond a simple grenade, a primitive weapon, or a basic slugthrower. Why? because having a better weapon probably wouldn't do much drive the plot. And even in the examples just listed off, it would have to make sense and drive the story beyond the fact that a character wants to make something explode.

I'm thinking that if the player wanted to DP an item that they had already bought but forgot to bring along with them, then I'd seriously consider that, something along the lines of the Utility Belt rules. If it wasn't something they had already bought, and especially if it was large, expensive, and/or rare, then they'd have to give me a really good explanation of why they should be able to DP that item. But, if they could convince me, then I'd let them do it -- and they'd have to cross that money off their sheet.

In the case of the kind of Automated Ground Defense Systems of the sort that brought this subject up, then if the players had convinced me and I had allowed it, part of that deal would have to be an explanation of how they fit that to the ship -- and then they'd have to spend whatever hard points we had agreed on to mount that into place.

And if they didn't want that to be a permanent feature, they could always remove it at some point in the future.

In my case, as a player, when we ran across some battle droids, we ended up scrapping most of the parts but I arranged to have the droid brains and weapons salvaged, for potential future use. My idea was exactly this kind of thing -- an AGDS. The GM allowed us to salvage the brains and weapons, and seemed to think that this was an interesting idea, but we have not yet had a discussion as to how they would be mounted and how they would be operated.

My character is not the owner of the ship, and if the owner didn't like whatever rules would be imposed on us by the GM, then I assume we would not be using the droid parts in that manner. But at least we do have the option of exploring that idea, and that might lead to some interesting adventures in the future.

As you mentioned up-thread, the GM has final call on destiny point use when creating facts (With the exception of talents such as Utility Belt). I would probably never allow spend a DP to have produce a weapon beyond a simple grenade, a primitive weapon, or a basic slugthrower. Why? because having a better weapon probably wouldn't do much drive the plot. And even in the examples just listed off, it would have to make sense and drive the story beyond the fact that a character wants to make something explode.

I'm thinking that if the player wanted to DP an item that they had already bought but forgot to bring along with them, then I'd seriously consider that, something along the lines of the Utility Belt rules. If it wasn't something they had already bought, and especially if it was large, expensive, and/or rare, then they'd have to give me a really good explanation of why they should be able to DP that item. But, if they could convince me, then I'd let them do it -- and they'd have to cross that money off their sheet.

Spending a DP to have a weapon that you own but forgot to mention you were bringing, is a very reasonable example. My players don't typically hoard weapons, so I typically assume they have their gear on them unless the place they are at might have restrictions, then I ask.

Flipping a DP and spending the money, I think that would depend on the circumstance or the nature of the adventure. Most of the time I'll retcon the players buying a few things. no big deal.

I use a DP for the left field stuff no one would have seen coming. If it is something they own and should have thought to bring, like grenades ie. Jayne in Serenity, they should think more. I leave Utility Belt for everything else, maybe gear they have, maybe they don't, but the Talent is their once a session out, and reminder to plan better. To me that requires players to think and plan, gives them an out for the things they really can't see coming, and provides a distinction between Utility Belt and flipping a DP.

If, instead, it's a ship weapon, the ship can be completely locked down and the skill used is Gunnery.

I said it in post #21, but it bears repeating: the skill used for a weapon does not change when it is mounted on a vehicle. A light repeating blaster mounted on a vehicle still used Ranged (Heavy).

If, instead, it's a ship weapon, the ship can be completely locked down and the skill used is Gunnery.

I said it in post #21, but it bears repeating: the skill used for a weapon does not change when it is mounted on a vehicle. A light repeating blaster mounted on a vehicle still used Ranged (Heavy).

You're right. My mistake. I stand by the situational differences, though (which, admittedly and most likely intentionally, you did not quote).

...I leave Utility Belt for everything else, maybe gear they have, maybe they don't...

Why does everyone keep referring to the utility belt as this magic belt of holding? All it does is give you an extra endurance to carry stuff. The player still has to decide to put something in it. The fluff in the rulebook says that their contents can vary based on who is using it, but it's not specified or implied that they're full of whatever is narratively appropriate.