He got annoyed about the penalties? Woot?

That regiment better be about adding flavor and an interesting background for they seriously get slaughtered if they bring it down to numbers when they engage any kind of a decent foe.

There is a very good reason the IG uses Lasguns (Pretty awsome weapons for our standard) and not bows. And the only reason his regiment might survive is through adapting and utilizing what ever is at their hand. A bow might land a nice shot, but It wont win a serious firefight. So if he wants to deploy a Frag grenade farther than he can throw it by hand he should use a friggin sling or dont do it at all.

The solutions are given, if he is to stubborn to use them and demands some crazy houserules that cater to his very narrow Idea of playstyle, you as a GM should stop at that point. It is not your job to make his ideas work.

We will try to talk some sense into him, perhaps we can arrange his regiment to use Sniper Rifles instead of Bows, while still bringing some colorful Low-Tech Weaponry(Blowguns, Warknifes, Throwing Knifes) that will stay true to the Primitive theme he wishes to maintain. I will post the finished product along with the Regiments we created for the "Andrastes Salient Crusade"

Technically, there's nothing wrong with bows - there's actually a line in the 5E Codex about regiments sometimes being raised with nothing but bows and spears or primitive platemail. This is 40k, so almost anything is possible somehow.

How about if the Imperium gives them a "sci-fi version" of bows and appropriate arrows? A shiny, durable weapon with a repeating magazine including a solar-powered counter, and a selection of mono-edged and explosive arrows. Requires even less maintenance and is totally silent.

In fact, "stealth" could be the theme of this regiment. Perhaps they excel at raids at dawn or during nighttime, surprising the defenders with skilfully executed shots that take out their sentries one by one as the warriors close in on the enemy encampment. And once they do notice what's going on and sound the alarm, they charge them with huge shields and spears tipped with a shaped explosive charge capable of blowing sizeable holes right through an Ork's body.

Yeah, maybe it's not the most effective tactic. But, hell, if the Attilan Rough Riders can become famous for riding cyber-horses, then why not have Space Zulu with electro-bows and chainspears?

As a matter of fact, the Main Strength of 112th Nitisian(the regiment in question) is stealth: Guerrilla Regiment with Chameleonine and a Stummer per Player Character. So yeah they are quite sneaky xD This is what we made so far

11 ^th Nitisian Hunters

*Feral World (4 P) (Nitis)

-Modifiers: +3 Weapon Skill +3 Agility

-Skills: Awareness, Parry, Sleight of Hand

-Fluency: Does not possess Linguistics(Low Gothic) but knows how to speak it.

-Talents: Frenzy (Must spend a round fuelling his rage, gains +10 WS, Strength, Willpower and Toughness but he suffers from -20 to BS, Intelligence and Fellowship. He must engage the nearest enemy in melee and becomes immune to the effects of Fear, Pinning, Stun and Fatigue. He may not Parry, retreat or flee)

-Violence Answers All: Must pass a +20 Willpower or Intelligence Test to avoid crushing a foe utterly

-Suspicious of Machine Spirits: -10 penalty to Common Lore (Tech), Medicae and Tech-Use Skills unless they are trained in that Skill

-Wounds: +2

*Commanding Officer: Colonel Saulus (Supine, 1 P)

-Skills: Common lore (Ecclesiarchy), Common Lore (Imperial Creed)

*Guerrilla Regiment (4 P)

-Modifiers: +3 Perception -3 Fellowship

-Skill: Stealth

-Talents: Ambush (Adds 1 extra damage for every two degrees of success on the WS or BS tests beyond the first)

-Standard: Regimental kit: 1 Lascarbine (Main Weapon) and four charges per Player Character, 2 Blind, Stun and Frag grenades per Player Character.

*Chameleoline(3 P)

-Standard Regimental Kit: The regiment is equipped with chameleoline cloaks

*Primitive(+5 P)

-Hopelessly Primitive: -5 BS -5 WS with non Low-Tech Weaponry

-Waste of Resources: -20 to all Logistics tests to acquire other items than Low-Tech Weapons

*Warrior Weapons (3 P)

-Skill: Parry

-Standard Kit: Exchanges Lascarbine for Laspistol with two charge Packs and Axe (1D10+1 R, Unbalanced)

*Hardened Fighters(2 P)

-Characteristics: +2 Weapon Skill

-Starting Talents: Add WS Bonus to critical damage while using a knife(or knife-like) weapons

-Applies Mono Upgrade to the Axe.

STANDARD REGIMENTAL KIT (30 P)

- Regimental Kit:. One knife. One Uniform, One Flack Jacket One Laspistol and two charge packs. One per of poor weather gear. One Rucleshack or Sling Bag. One set of Basic Tools. One mess kit and water canteen. One blanket and One Sleeping bag. One rechargeable lamp pack. One grooming kit. One set of cognomen Tags. One instructional handbook. Ration Two weeks worthy

-Bow and 20 Arrows(5 P)

-One quiver of Explosive Arrows (Loses the primitive quality and imposes a -10 penalty) (10 P)

-One Throwing Knife (5 P)

-One Stummer (8 P)

*Basic Favorite Weapon: Sniper Rifle

*Heavy Favorite Weapon: Heavy Flamer

Questions:

-Do the Parry of Feral Worlders stack with the Parry granted by Warrior Weapons?

-Does the Street Fighting Talent apply to throwing knives?

Questions:

-Do the Parry of Feral Worlders stack with the Parry granted by Warrior Weapons?

-Does the Street Fighting Talent apply to throwing knives?

- Yes.

- As long as you use them in melee, yes. If you use them as a ranged weapon then no.

Well after long disucssions I think we finally we agreed on how to maintain the Stone-Age Guards combat effective: In a flagrant misuse of our readind material we forgot we have access to the Pattern generation system of Hammer of the Emperor xD We agreed the regiments can alter two items (either their favored weaponry or some weapons\items of their Standard Regimental Kit) with 2 Positive 1 Negative Modifications for one item and 1Positive, 1 Negative for the second. They can also alter a Third item but 1 Positive, 2 Negative basis, with the Players picking the positive modifications and the GM the negative ones

So, we finally created the "Norris Pattern" ( ) Mk.XIV Tactical Longbow with the Incredibly Lethal (grants the Accurate quality) and the High Impact Modifications(+2 Damage if you fire after you aim). I have further questions though:

-Does the primitive quality also affect the extra damage dice of the Accurate Quality?

-Does the Primitive quality also limit a weapons staple damage? For example: A Warhammer with a 1d10+1 and Primitive(8) does a maximum damage of 8 or of 9?

Never was a real fan of that building system. In most cases it works worse than a real home-brewed gun that was created with caution, it just allows to many crazy things but yea, that is up to you. I just expect the accurate Bow to fill the exactly broken gap that is normally occupied by the Long-Las. (Highly accurate guns that just stack modifiers and get better the worse their user is) The entire point about the reduced damage of proven is turned ad absurdum, especially if the players start to attach red dot sights or whatever on their high tech bow and stack up modifiers.

About your questions:

- Nope, primitive does not affect these additional rolls. They are just blatant raw damage that gets added.

- The primitive only affect the d10 in its damage profile. So the effective maximum would be 8+1=9

Honestly, this regiment is nothing about about primitve or stone age. With chameleolin, stummers, super accurate high-tech bows that can pierce power armor and regular mono weapons they are more like crysis high-tech-assassins.

As long as the players are not stupid they just stack up absurd amounts of bonus modifiers for roughly any regular enemy would be ambushed and attacked unaware and off guard. As long as they do not move much, they are not just frigging hard to spot but also really difficult to hit for regular goons.

Just take that crazy ass bow that is nothing like primitive but that kind of toy an exquisite rogue trader would use to hunt big game. But maybe I am just old schooled.^^

Lets make a shoot though:

Single Shot +10 BS

Aim +10 BS

Accurate +10 BS

Red-dot +10 BS

Custom-grip (Quite likely to happen) +5 BS

That is granting you a whooping +45 on your BS without any range or ambush modifiers. With a BS of 40 achieving your 4 DoS for additional damage is rather easy so on a roll of 45 or less they will deal an average of 18,5 damage per arrow. And I am speaking of arrows they could simply craft from wood without any talents that further increase damage.

Honestly, this regiment is nothing about about primitve or stone age. With chameleolin, stummers, super accurate high-tech bows that can pierce power armor and regular mono weapons they are more like crysis high-tech-assassins.

True and True xD Though they excel mostly at close range and will likely outranged by almost anyone , most vehicles will rip them to shreds and that our group is used to make very bad descisions ...

The point FM was making is that you`ve taken a caveman primitive concept and produced high-tech viking axe-ninjas with armour piercing sniperbows in adaptive stealth camo.

You`ve gone from Ugg and his cavepals to the lovechildren of Predator and Rambo.

Exactly why isn`t their favored basic weapon the custom pattern you built for them?

Also you need to decide if they are going to be stealthy bowmen or frothing beserkers with as the two aren`t really compatible.

In short: where is the primitive? These guys have tech far in advance of regular meatgrinder units.

I'm pretty sure that with the "Incredibly Lethal" and "High Impact" upgrades, Ryousan in fact invented the humble reflex bow for the 40k universe. Hits harder and is much more accurate than a standard bow but it is still bronze/iron age tech.

I'm pretty sure that with the "Incredibly Lethal" and "High Impact" upgrades, Ryousan in fact invented the humble reflex bow for the 40k universe. Hits harder and is much more accurate than a standard bow but it is still bronze/iron age tech.

That might have been a bow without the primitive quality but a bow that is capable of wounding a Space Marine in Power Armor on average with any shot that hits, is nothing like even a composite bow that uses 21th century materials.

That bow deals 18,5 damage, a Lasgun on !Overload! produces 10,5 Pen2. Against a Foe with Armor 4 and Toughness 3 (Your average grunt) the Lasgun needs to hit with two shots to deal roughly the same average damage.

That bow is by no means some revived bronze/iron age tech but in fact some sort of pretty decent high-tech.

Exactly why isn`t their favored basic weapon the custom pattern you built for them?

You know? That is actually a very good idea xD

Also you need to decide if they are going to be stealthy bowmen or frothing beserkers with as the two aren`t really compatible.

We though we could make the most out the Skills and Talents of Feral Worlders by giving them melee capabilities and make them more flexible, as we tought a guerrila Regiment should be.

This is why Only War's version of the Primitve Quality is awful.

Bows reliably damaging people through power armour. Jesus.

This is why Only War's version of the Primitve Quality is awful.

Bows reliably damaging people through power armour. Jesus.

Throwing Knives damage output is also bizarre xD As is the fact Blowguns can deal more damage than the Bows with innusual ammo.

-I´d like some ideas though: We should give them the custom bow? Should we make it a favored weapon? Should we house-rule a more moderate but more advanced bow? I welcome your suggestions

Also you need to decide if they are going to be stealthy bowmen or frothing beserkers with as the two aren`t really compatible.

We though we could make the most out the Skills and Talents of Feral Worlders by giving them melee capabilities and make them more flexible, as we tought a guerrila Regiment should be.

There`s nothing quite like hiding behind RAW when your concept doesn`t hold up to scrutiny eh?

Strange how you had no qualms changing the stats of a bow to make a god-killer but won`t cash in and change a talent that doesn`t fit your stealthy hunter concept because "that`s what the rules say." Just saying.

Also a key defining point of a guerilla unit is their willingness aqnd ability to disengage (enabling them to repeatedly strike at superior forces without getting annihilated) not exactly a strongpoint of a bunch of beserkers (who by RAW cannot flee, retreat or parry.)

In short why did the munitorum (who see this lot as a waste of time and resources) give expensive hard to make camo and utterly unique high tech anti-astartes bows to these knuckle dragging psychopathic axe-happy killers who hate and fear technology? Especially when these resources could be sent to Cadia and make an invisible unit of CSM hunting Rambo-clones?

There`s nothing quite like hiding behind RAW when your concept doesn`t hold up to scrutiny eh?

Strange how you had no qualms changing the stats of a bow to make a god-killer but won`t cash in and change a talent that doesn`t fit your stealthy hunter concept because "that`s what the rules say." Just saying.

Well, we choose Frenzy because Ambush was redundant with the Guerrilla Regiment. And would be a wasteful not allow our players to make most with what are being given, Frenzy included(besides Feral Worlds are known for being places of utter violence). I admit there are problems with the bow, and we are thinking about removing the stummer, and that´s is why I´d welcome your suggestions on how better portrying the regiment.

The axe wielding stealthy barbarian Is not completly unheard of. Germanic and Celtic tribes would ambush Roma Columns using stealth and then routing them by using brute force: big guys with axes and wolf pelts and war paint. We thught we could stay true to the theme but seems like we will have to rethink some points about it

I'm pretty sure that with the "Incredibly Lethal" and "High Impact" upgrades, Ryousan in fact invented the humble reflex bow for the 40k universe. Hits harder and is much more accurate than a standard bow but it is still bronze/iron age tech.

That might have been a bow without the primitive quality but a bow that is capable of wounding a Space Marine in Power Armor on average with any shot that hits, is nothing like even a composite bow that uses 21th century materials.

That bow deals 18,5 damage, a Lasgun on !Overload! produces 10,5 Pen2. Against a Foe with Armor 4 and Toughness 3 (Your average grunt) the Lasgun needs to hit with two shots to deal roughly the same average damage.

But that's because of the Accurate quality and not because of the bow's natural damage capacity. So that 18.5 damage would actually represent a pinpoint shot into a tiny crack on the SM's armor, burrowing deep into his flesh (the Accurate quality in work) instead of punching right through the armor.

Every weapon can land a "pin-point" shot. The accurate means that this weapon is not just accurate in terms of aiming but also backs enough punch to make perfect use of hitting said weak point. Also, you could shoot that thing on a cover of solid iron, no weak spot at all, and it would still punch right through with ease, destabilizing the entire thing.

Every weapon can land a "pin-point" shot. The accurate means that this weapon is not just accurate in terms of aiming but also backs enough punch to make perfect use of hitting said weak point. Also, you could shoot that thing on a cover of solid iron, no weak spot at all, and it would still punch right through with ease, destabilizing the entire thing.

But I just don´t think the Custom Bow Damage output is extremely high, Even with a perfect shot the maximum it can deal is 28(counting a good Ambush Damage) with Pen 0 and doesn´t remove the fact that the weapon still has 30m of efective range and has to reload after each shot. In a perfect world, a Lasgun that fire on Semi-Auto and lands all its three shots in Overload Mode and with and Overcharge Pack can deal 48 Dmg with Pen 2 , doesn´t have to reload, outranges any bow and can do it two times in a row before the pack runs dry: in a perfect scenario that translate as 96 Dmg with Pen 2 If the player goes for accuracy the Lasgun can still modified with a Custom grip and a Modified Stock for a +17 BS when Aiming and firing on Semi-Auto. And that is the common unmodified M36 lasgun

Also, if the Munitorum and the Mechanicus decided to provide Ogryns, who are more simple than any Feral-Worlder, with custom-Ogryn Proof-modified Auto Cannons and Feudal Rough Riders with Plasma AND MELTA Tips for their lances is really an Accurate Bow that much of a deal xD?

Every weapon can land a "pin-point" shot. The accurate means that this weapon is not just accurate in terms of aiming but also backs enough punch to make perfect use of hitting said weak point. Also, you could shoot that thing on a cover of solid iron, no weak spot at all, and it would still punch right through with ease, destabilizing the entire thing.

Nope. For example, the Sharpshooter's special ability can turn almost any weapon into an Accurate one. Even a sling. Or a common laspistol. An that's just a special ability.

...

Assumption:

Lasgun - LG (Overcharge Pack, Overload Mode, Modified Stock, Custom Grip)

Custom Bow - CB (Accurate, +2 Dmg/Aim, Red Dot, Modified Stock, Custom Grip)

Target: Armor 4, TB 3

Shooter BS: 40

LG, Half Aim, Half Semi-Automatic:

Avg, Dmg = 5,5+3+1+2 = 11,5

Soak: 4A+3T-2P = 5

E. DmG = 6,5

1 Additional Hit every two additional DoS to max 3

Semi-Automatic BS Test:

BS 40 + Semi 0 + Aim 10 + Grip 5 + Stock 3 = 58

18% Chance for 3*6,5 = 19,5 DMG

20% Chance for 2*6,5 = 13 DMG

20% Chance for 1*6,5 = 6,5 DMG

42% Chance Failure

Average of 7,41 Edmg per Turn

CB, Half Aim, Singe Shot

Avg, Dmg = 5,5+2 = 7,5

Soak: 4A+3T = 7

E. DmG = 0,5

1 additional d10 every 2 DoS, +2 Dmg for Aim

Single shot BS Test:

BS 40 + SS 10 + Aim 10 + Accurate 10 + Grip 5 + Stock 3 + Red Dot 10 = 88

58% Chance for 0,5+2*5,5 = 11,5 DMG

20% Chance for 0,5+1*5,5 = 6 DMG

10% Chance for 0,5+0*5,5 = 0,5 DMG

12% Chance Failure

Average of 7,92 Edmg per Turn

So your example with the Lasgun is quite off. Its only advantage is the range for I have ignored that is my example. But to be honest, a Regiment gifted with some of the best Stealth-High-Tech the Imperium can offer would not engage an enemy at an unpleasant range.

All in all this kind of regiment would be rather useless with that gear in any traditional regiment role. They would be some sort of Scouts/Recon and would have not that much problems at all for they would never storm a city or participate in long trech warfare where the real brutality starts. They can always pick the battle they want to fight, and granted yes, if they are taken on the wrong foot, it might be a massacre, but they have all the gear they need to make that never happen.

But lets stick to maths again. The example I took was a Guardsman-Equivalent. Lets take a rather solid MEQ.

Target: Armor 8, TB 8

Shooter BS: 40

LG: Average of 0 Edmg per Turn

CB: Average of 1,45 Edmg per Turn

So the conclusion is, even with he Lasgun being semi-automatic the Bow deals still an average of 0,51 damage more per turn against a Guardsman. But the fact, that the damage of the Lasgun is spread over several shots and hence reduced several times by Toughness and Armor its average damage is unable to harm a Chaos Space marine where else the average damage of the custom Bow still results in the Loss of 1,45 Wounds per turn.

Nope. For example, the Sharpshooter's special ability can turn almost any weapon into an Accurate one. Even a sling. Or a common laspistol. An that's just a special ability.

"Just" does sound rather downplaying. So if it is "just" a SPECIAL ability, why dont you pick the sharpshooter class for all your players? That way they would make their weapon good because they are trained to do so, not because it was manufactured to be an astartes itching bow of doom.

Do not get me wrong, I am not arguing against you using a rather mighty loudout from the start, with all that high tech stuff. I am arguing that all of this has absolutly nothing to do with the initial idea of a primitive stone-age-guerrilla regiment.

PS: I am up for some several hours now, expect to be some sort of flaw in my Math at that time. xD

The only thing that seems missing to me would be the Primitive Quality of the bow. And I'd like to see a quote on that quality not applying to the extra dice from Accurate.

Do not get me wrong, I am not arguing against you using a rather mighty loudout from the start, with all that high tech stuff. I am arguing that all of this has absolutly nothing to do with the initial idea of a primitive stone-age-guerrilla regiment.

PS: I am up for some several hours now, expect to be some sort of flaw in my Math at that time. xD

Alright, the math seems solid. The question is how to better portray the initial concept while still making the regiment combat worthy? I´d thank if you help us with some ideas.

Another thing I think is that the custom Bow advantages are somewhat offset by the fact they have to reload each turn. To effective, you have to Aim first andthen fire, something It cant be done in the same turn your reload the Bow. My point is out of every three rounds you will have to spend one of them reloading the thing, limiting its overall efectiveness

Nope. For example, the Sharpshooter's special ability can turn almost any weapon into an Accurate one. Even a sling. Or a common laspistol. An that's just a special ability.

"Just" does sound rather downplaying. So if it is "just" a SPECIAL ability, why dont you pick the sharpshooter class for all your players? That way they would make their weapon good because they are trained to do so, not because it was manufactured to be an Astartes itching bow of doom.

The whole point is that the weapon was never manufactured to be an "Astartes itching bow of doom". It has excellent precision - the Accurate quality - and that's all. Your problem is the OP rules of the Accurate quality and not the actual weapon.

The only thing that seems missing to me would be the Primitive Quality of the bow. And I'd like to see a quote on that quality not applying to the extra dice from Accurate.

This is what the Only War Rules Say about the primitive quality: When rolling damage for a weapon with this quality any roll greater than the number in the parentheses counts as that number . In the speciic case of the Bow is Primitive (6)

Hence my doubts about whether or not did the quality apply to the extra dice of the Accurate quality