So, exactly which set of rules are you playing by?

Epic Rules, which are different then Epic Tournament Rules.

IMO putting those crew restrictions in the tournament rules was a huge mistake on FFG's part. Either those cards are unbalanced or they're not.

The combination of ship and upgrade card is. And yes, that combination is unbalanced all the time.

Edit: I agree the rule should be in the normal ship rules. However, the intention is clear enough.

So, exactly which set of rules are you playing by?

Epic Rules, which are different then Epic Tournament Rules.

Can you show me where these Epic Rules are posted?

Edit: I agree the rule should be in the normal ship rules. However, the intention is clear enough.

This is a case where intention means jack. Not everyone is going to look at the Epic Tournament rules. You sit down with someone to play a epic game and try tell them they can't have gunner... You're going to have agree to use the tournament rules, because unless it's a sanctioned event it's up to the people paying to agree to things like that.

You argue all you want that those combos are overpowered and shouldn't be allowed. But unless the other guy agrees to play by the tournament rule-set, you don't have a leg to stand on RAW.

Can you show me where these Epic Rules are posted?

Here. http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=174&esem=4

Edit: I agree the rule should be in the normal ship rules. However, the intention is clear enough.

This is a case where intention means jack. Not everyone is going to look at the Epic Tournament rules. You sit down with someone to play a epic game and try tell them they can't have gunner...

I think that's exactly what ziggy2000 is driving at: The only epic rules on the support site are the epic tournament rules. If you sit down to play a epic game, which rules do you use?

If you sit down to play a epic game, which rules do you use?

Now that you mention it, there is nothing in the Huge Ship rules about squad building is there... Which is even more disappointing on FFG's part.

So apparently you either play by what ever rules both sides agree to, including point values, table size and ship/upgrade limitations or you play by the Epic Tournament rules.

Ya but think about it.

Gunner make quad lasers just that much more powerful.

Navigator as well, that's just a waste anyway since you move after all the small and large ships.

If a player I was too play against really wanted to use gunner or Luke, and tells me "well its only in the tournament rules, and not in the rules that came with the ship,I'd just say good luck and have fun playing with your new ship by yourself.

It's obviously over powered,which is why they put that ruling on the tournamentrules. Why would I waste my time playing a game that is unfair?

If you can find an opponent then that's great, but anyone who reads online will know better

Luke and Gunner doesn't make sense anyway since firing a weapon on a Huge Ship requires energy.

But for us the big thing is not allowing Navigator and making sure we use the Biggs rule.

I wish the Huge Ship rules are amended to make the tourney rules for Navigator, Luke, Gunner and Biggs simply part of standard play rules.

Well that is why they are over powered.

If you were to put gunner on it, you could fire any weapon, and If it missed fire again without having to use energy?

They is how I would see it being used.

Or

If you shoot with the primary which doesn't cost energy, miss, get to shoot again with gunner, then use single laser?

Again way over powered.

All I can say is Good luck to the poster who said earlier he would use it, cause he won't find anyone willing to play with him, making his purchase rather useless. A nice piece to put on your desk is all it would become

If you were to put gunner on it, you could fire any weapon, and If it missed fire again without having to use energy?

No not really. You could fire the primary again which doesn't take energy in the first place, and at that point you couldn't fire any other guns for the round, since you can't attack again after using Gunner/Luke.

I don't really see why Gunner is that OP'ed, it doesn't have any more effect on the CR-90 then it does the YT really. You get a 2nd shot, if you miss, with the primary only. It's not like you can use Gunner to fire the Quads off 6 times or something.

Ya but think about it.

Gunner make quad lasers just that much more powerful.

But only one of them. Gunner/Luke prevent further attacks so using it early could prevent the vette from making up to 3 attacks.

If you were to put gunner on it, you could fire any weapon, and If it missed fire again without having to use energy?

No not really. You could fire the primary again which doesn't take energy in the first place, and at that point you couldn't fire any other guns for the round, since you can't attack again after using Gunner/Luke.I don't really see why Gunner is that OP'ed, it doesn't have any more effect on the CR-90 then it does the YT really. You get a 2nd shot, if you miss, with the primary only. It's not like you can use Gunner to fire the Quads off 6 times or something.

You would only not be able to shoot your primary again, so you could still shoot off any single /quad laser canons

If you were to put gunner on it, you could fire any weapon, and If it missed fire again without having to use energy?

No not really. You could fire the primary again which doesn't take energy in the first place, and at that point you couldn't fire any other guns for the round, since you can't attack again after using Gunner/Luke.I don't really see why Gunner is that OP'ed, it doesn't have any more effect on the CR-90 then it does the YT really. You get a 2nd shot, if you miss, with the primary only. It's not like you can use Gunner to fire the Quads off 6 times or something.

I'm guessing you didn't read my whole post.

You would only not be able to shoot your primary again, so you could still shoot off any single /quad laser canons

Gunner says you can not perform any more attacks this round. He says nothing about not performing primary weapon attacks again. So no, you could not use the secodarys after using gunner.

I'm guessing you didn't read my whole post.

You need to read the card again.

Gunner prevents you from attacking again, that means once you use him you can't fire any other weapons that round.

If you were to put gunner on it, you could fire any weapon, and If it missed fire again without having to use energy?

No not really. You could fire the primary again which doesn't take energy in the first place, and at that point you couldn't fire any other guns for the round, since you can't attack again after using Gunner/Luke.I don't really see why Gunner is that OP'ed, it doesn't have any more effect on the CR-90 then it does the YT really. You get a 2nd shot, if you miss, with the primary only. It's not like you can use Gunner to fire the Quads off 6 times or something.

I'm guessing you didn't read my whole post.

You would only not be able to shoot your primary again, so you could still shoot off any single /quad laser canons

Gunner says you can not perform any more attacks this round. He says nothing about not performing primary weapon attacks again. So no, you could not use the secodarys after using gunner.

This.

You've been awfully punchy lately, Krynn, maybe cut back on the Wheaties a bit?

I honestly don't get the gunner restrictions.

Biggs makes sense. Gunner/Luke doesn't however, I just don't see how this is so OP'ed. It at best gives you a 2nd chance to shoot with the primary for 0 energy, and since it says 'immediately' on the card, you can't save a miss until after you fired everything else.

So for 5 points you get a 2nd shot with the primary, but have to give up all other shots from hard-points that round, if you miss with an attack.

If someone can point out how this is OP'ed I'd be happy to listen to the logic. I also won't use Gunner/Luke, because it's against the rules. Even if I don't agree I'll still abide by them.

Navigator... I can see this one I suppose, being able to change direction on a YT or Firespray doesn't allow you to run over Tie Fighters.

Well nothing stopping you from firing All your secondary weapons first.

Pretty easy way around that

So let's say you have 1 quad,2 singles that all have shots.

You fire all your shots with secondary.

Then primary.Pay one energy roll 5 dice Miss, shoot again, pay the 1 energy to fire again since it's now another separate attack.

So that is possible 4 long range shots. Instead of three. That is pretty sick in my opinion. Especially against low agility ships

You almost couldn't miss if you tried.

I'm pretty sure that they probably came up with this rule when they first Play tested it. Was probably pretty devastating.

Well nothing stopping you from firing All your secondary weapons first.

And your point is? Nothing is going to make you fire in a given order, but nothing is gained by doing so either.

the Gunner card says you make your 2nd attack with the primary immediately, and that you can't make any other attacks that round. So that means you can't save it until after you made all your other attacks. Either you use it after a miss, which means giving up other shots, or don't use it.

So that is possible 4 long range shots. Instead of three.

One additional attack, if you miss with one of the long range shots, and if you don't have any more attacks to make, so you missed with your last shot, is hardly what I'd consider OP'ed. At least no more so then being able to do it on the YT, Firespray or Shuttle.

Well nothing stopping you from firing All your secondary weapons first.

Sure there is. The Gunner card itself. It says you make your 2nd attack with the primary immediately, and that you can't make any other attacks that round. So that means you can't save it until after you made all your other attacks.

So that is possible 4 long range shots. Instead of three.

One additional attack, which assumes one of the missed, is hardly what I'd consider OP'ed. At least no more so then being able to do it on the YT, Firespray or Shuttle.

You didn't read his post right vanor. He said fire all the secondaries first, then the primary and then use gunner if the primary missed.

Well nothing stopping you from firing All your secondary weapons first.

So let's say you have 1 quad,2 singlesthat all have shots.

You fire all your shots with secondary.

Then primary.Pay one energy roll 5 dice Miss, shoot again, pay the 1 energy to fire again since it's now another separate attack.

If you're doing this, you're avoiding using the Gunner on any other misses from the secondaries. If you hit with that last attack, then Gunner does nothing.

I'm with Vanor on this one. On a regular ship with one attack, the "Cannot attack this round" is a bookkeeping restriction that stops Gunner from triggering itself. On a Huge ship with multiple attacks, it becomes a very serious limitation that makes Gunner pretty useless.

You didn't read his post right vanor. He said fire all the secondaries first, then the primary and then use gunner if the primary missed.

Yeah I edited my post. But he still doesn't make a very good case that Gunner/Luke is OP'ed on the Vette.

I played the corvette last night, and honestly I was very underwhelmed by the guns. Even against the shuttle I don't think I did more than a point or two of damage with it all game. If I had been able to make an extra primary attack each time I missed with it I doubt it would have made any difference at all.

You didn't read his post right vanor. He said fire all the secondaries first, then the primary and then use gunner if the primary missed.

The order is irrelevant. Whether you fire the primary first or last or somewhere in the middle, if you use Gunner on anything other than the last attack you're sacrificing other attacks.

About the only thing you could potentially do is trade a would-be secondary attack for an additional attack with the primaries.

And that, I think, is why the restriction is there - not because of the power level, but to maintain the thematic balance between the primaries and secondaries. That goes for "make your secondaries matter" as well as balancing the range differences. Firing at a short range target, missing, and then unloading a long-range bombardment may not be unbalanced, but I can see where the feel is off.

The best case for Gunner is you fire all your long range attacks, and hit with the first 3 (primary or secondary doesn't really matter.) and then on the 4th attack you miss which lets you get another attack with your primary.

So you get 5 attacks instead of 4, but the 4th one had to miss so it didn't do any damage anyway. I just don't see this as being hugely OP'ed.

You didn't read his post right vanor. He said fire all the secondaries first, then the primary and then use gunner if the primary missed.

Yeah I edited my post. But he still doesn't make a very good case that Gunner/Luke is OP'ed on the Vette.

Gunner reads

After you perform an attack that does not hit, you may immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You cannot perform another attack this round.

So what keeping you from firing all your guns, and saving gunner for the last gun as insurance?

It says after you perform an attack. Ok.

So I attack, Lets say I get a hit in. great

I attack again. Miss. Now I have the option, because gunner reads. "you MAY immediately..." so I choose not to use gunner, and keep firing.

Attack again. hit.

Attack again miss. again I choose not to use gunner.

Attack again with my main weapon. Miss

Alright, lets use gunner.

I can't see why that wouldn't work.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something here, I take it from the sounds of your post that your saying you have to use gunner on the first opportunity you miss.

The card reads you 'may" so therefore you don't have to use it right away.

You don't think it's overpowered. It's not uber powerful, but as hard as it is getting in close to the corvette can be tough. Having it shoot at ships before they are even within firing range is pretty tough. Even though they do get extra evades, your still getting a slight advantage. Now every round you shoot you can possibly get a free shot in with gunner. That sounds kind of sick to me.

I'm not the one who came up with the rule, but I would think that FFG must have played it this way at some point. I doubt they just restrict cards without trying them out at first? That wouldn't make much sense, and that is the point of play testing. See how things balance

Gunner just gives you a free attack if your last one misses. After 2-3-4 rounds those free attacks start to add up, if you happen to roll crappy.