Honestly, I suspect the ruling has nothing to do with power lever, because it isn't particularly, but rather to avoid rules questions about gunner and energy.
Quad laser cannons power
Honestly, I suspect the ruling has nothing to do with power lever, because it isn't particularly, but rather to avoid rules questions about gunner and energy.
Who knows. Maybe that is it.
Because if you were to fire your single lasers last, then gunner says you may immediately do it again, so I'm sure people would try to say it doesn't require energy.
Nobody but ffg really knows the reason. Unless someone wants to email them and see if they get a response, we can just go over this until we are blue in the face. Nobody will be right or wrong.
Opinions are like a-holes.
Everyone has one and they all stink
I'm guessing you didn't read my whole post.
No not really. You could fire the primary again which doesn't take energy in the first place, and at that point you couldn't fire any other guns for the round, since you can't attack again after using Gunner/Luke.I don't really see why Gunner is that OP'ed, it doesn't have any more effect on the CR-90 then it does the YT really. You get a 2nd shot, if you miss, with the primary only. It's not like you can use Gunner to fire the Quads off 6 times or something.If you were to put gunner on it, you could fire any weapon, and If it missed fire again without having to use energy?
You would only not be able to shoot your primary again, so you could still shoot off any single /quad laser canons
Gunner says you can not perform any more attacks this round. He says nothing about not performing primary weapon attacks again. So no, you could not use the secodarys after using gunner.
This.
You've been awfully punchy lately, Krynn, maybe cut back on the Wheaties a bit?
Really? Do I seem punchy?
I'm not having the best of days.
Don't mean to come off like an a-hole. I enjoy mostly everyone around here. Except for the occassional troll
Edit
Maybe quiting smoking doesn't help lol
Edited by Krynn007Honestly, I suspect the ruling has nothing to do with power lever, because it isn't particularly, but rather to avoid rules questions about gunner and energy.
ooh... good point, that would be my guess also.
I was going to say, you have to factor Energy production higher on the list
in assessing whether Gunner or Luke belong in the CR90.
I look at it from this point of view, you're not going to get 5 shots
on the first turn if you start with 3 energy.
If you took three Quad Laser Cannons + the primary
you'd have three 1-2 range weapons and one 3-5 range weapons.
minimum three energy
If you took two Quad Laser Cannons + one Single Turbolasers + the primary
you'd have two 1-2 range weapons and two 3-5 range weapons.
minimum four energy
If you took one Quad Laser Cannon + two Single Turbolasers + the primary
you'd have one 1-2 range weapon and three 3-5 range weapons.
minimum five energy.
If you took zero Quad Laser Cannon + three Single Turbolasers + the primary
you'd have zero 1-2 range weapon and four 3-5 range weapons.
minimum six energy.
You'll be lucky if you get 3 shots with three energy.
Gunner adds to the Quad Laser Cannon a third try after two misses but for no energy.
Gunner adds to the Single Turbolaser a another four dice shot for no energy.
But as it has been stated already it should be your last shot,
and this is the point I'm driving to, that you aren't going to get the three 3-5 range shots
if you only start with three energy, but if you miss your last shot, Gunner gives you a free reroll.
Considering that Single Turbolaser cost 8 and Quad Laser Cannons cost 6,
the Gunner at a cost of 5 is worth it even with the restriction.
Before someone corrects me, you could easily start off with 9 energy on the first turn,
if you spend two upgrade slots on Tibanna Gas Supplies as the CR90 can "use one or more
of its upgrade cards or damage cards with the energy header" in the Use Energy sub-step.
I personally wouldn't do that, but I am starting to dislike being under-powered all the time.
Edited by gabe69velasquez
Edit: I agree the rule should be in the normal ship rules. However, the intention is clear enough.
This is a case where intention means jack. Not everyone is going to look at the Epic Tournament rules. You sit down with someone to play a epic game and try tell them they can't have gunner...
I think that's exactly what ziggy2000 is driving at: The only epic rules on the support site are the epic tournament rules. If you sit down to play a epic game, which rules do you use?
Bingo. Right now, there are no Epic Rules, only Epic Tournament Rules. So if you claim you are playing Epic, you are either (1) playing by the published Epic Tournament Rules, or (2) making something up.
VanorDM, I agree that this is an oversight. If they wanted a distinction between Epic and Epic Tournament, there should be separate published rulesets. As it is (and without commenting one way or the other on whether certain upgrades are OP on huge ships), I will play any Epic games by the published tournament rules. Others are free to do as they like, but please do not be so smug as to say you don't need to play by tournament rules if you are using any part of them for your Epic matches.
Maybe quiting smoking doesn't help lol
In my book this covers a lot of "punchyness". Kudos, and keep it up!
Before someone corrects me, you could easily start off with 9 energy on the first turn,
if you spend two upgrade slots on Tibanna Gas Supplies as the CR90 can "use one or more
of its upgrade cards or damage cards with the energy header" in the Use Energy sub-step.
Not going to correct anything, but can you explain how this would work? Do you end up with 9 energy to spend on the first turn, or 9 energy to start the next turn with?
Honestly, I suspect the ruling has nothing to do with power lever, because it isn't particularly, but rather to avoid rules questions about gunner and energy.
ooh... good point, that would be my guess also.
I was going to say, you have to factor Energy production higher on the list
in assessing whether Gunner or Luke belong in the CR90.
I look at it from this point of view, you're not going to get 5 shots
on the first turn if you start with 3 energy.
If you took three Quad Laser Cannons + the primary
you'd have three 1-2 range weapons and one 3-5 range weapons.
minimum three energy
If you took two Quad Laser Cannons + one Single Turbolasers + the primary
you'd have two 1-2 range weapons and two 3-5 range weapons.
minimum four energy
If you took one Quad Laser Cannon + two Single Turbolasers + the primary
you'd have one 1-2 range weapon and three 3-5 range weapons.
minimum five energy.
If you took zero Quad Laser Cannon + three Single Turbolasers + the primary
you'd have zero 1-2 range weapon and four 3-5 range weapons.
minimum six energy.
You'll be lucky if you get 3 shots with three energy.
Gunner adds to the Quad Laser Cannon a third try after two misses but for no energy.
Gunner adds to the Single Turbolaser a another four dice shot for no energy.
But as it has been stated already it should be your last shot,
and this is the point I'm driving to, that you aren't going to get the three 3-5 range shots
if you only start with three energy, but if you miss your last shot, Gunner gives you a free reroll.
Considering that Single Turbolaser cost 8 and Quad Laser Cannons cost 6,
the Gunner at a cost of 5 is worth it even with the restriction.
Before someone corrects me, you could easily start off with 9 energy on the first turn,
if you spend two upgrade slots on Tibanna Gas Supplies as the CR90 can "use one or more
of its upgrade cards or damage cards with the energy header" in the Use Energy sub-step.
I personally wouldn't do that, but I am starting to dislike being under-powered all the time.
But gunner tells you to perform a primary weapon attack, not just any attack. So how could you argue that he allowes a new shot with a Quad Laser, or any other secondary weapon for that mater?
Maybe quiting smoking doesn't help lol
Quitting sucks. I know, I fought that battle about 5 years ago now. I'm very happy I did it, especially every time I walk into a store and see the price of smokes now, and people complain about the prices for X-Wing... If you're not using the patch or e-cigs or something I highly recommend them. I used the lozenge myself, and it helped a lot.
Back on topic.
The 9 energy...
You can gain at most 4 from a maneuver, if you preform a 2 straight and have an Energizing Team. You can then assign those 4 points elsewhere, leaving 0 energy on the aft section. Then you use the gas supplies to gain 3 more, but you can't allocate that energy, because the Use Energy step is after the Allocate Energy step. So that means you have 3 energy on the Aft section. If you use a 2nd gas supply you lose 1 of those energy because you can have at max 5 at any time.
So that means you have 4 energy allocated and 5 on the aft section, and can only gain energy next turn if you spend some.
With gunner on a corvette, you take the shot which is least likely to hit last. Gunner uses a weapon which is more powerful than all weapons on large/small ships.
Gunner uses a weapon which is more powerful than all weapons on large/small ships.
4 Dice but you're also restricted in arc, and can't shot anything closer then range 3. IMO the restrictions make the primary pretty even to a YT-1300's primary.
Well don't forget though, you can pay one energy to get an extra dice, so you could have 5 dice.
With a target lock and Han solo, firing against another corvette, or low agility ship, has potential
Edit: I agree the rule should be in the normal ship rules. However, the intention is clear enough.
This is a case where intention means jack. Not everyone is going to look at the Epic Tournament rules. You sit down with someone to play a epic game and try tell them they can't have gunner...
I think that's exactly what ziggy2000 is driving at: The only epic rules on the support site are the epic tournament rules. If you sit down to play a epic game, which rules do you use?
Bingo. Right now, there are no Epic Rules, only Epic Tournament Rules. So if you claim you are playing Epic, you are either (1) playing by the published Epic Tournament Rules, or (2) making something up.
VanorDM, I agree that this is an oversight. If they wanted a distinction between Epic and Epic Tournament, there should be separate published rulesets. As it is (and without commenting one way or the other on whether certain upgrades are OP on huge ships), I will play any Epic games by the published tournament rules. Others are free to do as they like, but please do not be so smug as to say you don't need to play by tournament rules if you are using any part of them for your Epic matches.
I think you are getting lost in your tournaments, as if the only people who are allowed to buy or use the CR90 & CR75 are people who play in tournaments. I don't play tournaments, so you are just going to refuse to see the possibilities.
I should have spoken up earlier but I don't use any epic rules or tournament epic rules, I use the rulebook that came with the GR75 and the rulebook that came with the CR90, and that covers everything I need to know to use those miniatures, except of the odd thing that may need a FAQ.
We almost never bother hitting exactly 100 points in squad building, one side makes their build, whether that be 66 point build with Han Solo (verses 4 TIE fighters like in Episode IV) or 134 points, or 156 points, and the other side matches the points.
Just as a 200 point build example: http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v3!t!80:48,65,64,90,91,68:6:-1:;81:31,65,92,50:-1:-1:;31:16,72:-1:-1:;31:16,72:-1:-1:;31:16,72:-1:-1:
Edited by gabe69velasquezWell maybe you find out the real reason as to why they restricted it in the tournament rules.
Overpowered?
Waste of points?
Maybe energy issues?
Let ud know how it works.
There has to be done reason as to why they restricted it from tournaments
Edited by Krynn007With a target lock and Han solo, firing against another corvette, or low agility ship, has potential
Yes, but that extra dice costs energy, and everything else you list can be used on a YT-1300... I'm sure FFG had a reason to not allow Gunner/Luke on the CR-90, but being a OP/Broken combo isn't IMO at least a valid reason. Perhaps that is their reason, but if so I don't agree with their thinking.
Which again doesn't mean I'll use it myself, just that even FFG can't be correct 100% of the time, but considering they make it to 98% I'm very happy. 
and that covers everything I need to know to use those miniatures, except of the odd thing that may need a FAQ.
That's the problem though. It actually doesn't, unless you're willing to use what are effectively house rules.
The ships with the Epic Icon can only be used in Epic Play or Cinematic Play, they can't be used in Standard Play. We however lack any sort of rules for list building for Epic Play other then what's in the Epic Tournament rules. Cinematic Play has rules for list building included with every mission released so far, often consisting of pre-set lists.
This is IMO a pretty big oversight on FFG's part, they either only released half the rules needed for Epic Play, or else intended for everyone to use the Epic Tournament Rules... Either way is bad.
Worse is, it's in a way to late to fix it. They already shipped the Epic ships, without Epic Play rules, so best thing they can do is release a PDF... Which while a partial fix, still relies on people finding and downloading it. Which flies in the face of the FFG's "everything you need in the box" policy for X-Wing.
Edited by VanorDM
Before someone corrects me, you could easily start off with 9 energy on the first turn,
if you spend two upgrade slots on Tibanna Gas Supplies as the CR90 can "use one or more
of its upgrade cards or damage cards with the energy header" in the Use Energy sub-step.
Not going to correct anything, but can you explain how this would work? Do you end up with 9 energy to spend on the first turn, or 9 energy to start the next turn with?
QUICK REFERENCE
Game Round Summary
(Rulebook pg. 28, & CR90 Rulebook pg. 4)
A. Planning phase:
1. maneuver dials set.
B. Activation phase:
1. Reveal dial:
2. Set template:
3. Execute maneuver
4. Check pilot stress
5. Clean up templates
6. Gain Energy *1
7. Allocate Energy *2
8. Use Energy *3
9. Perform action
C. Combat phase:
1. Declare Target
2. Roll attack Dice
3. Modify attack Dice
4. Roll Defense Dice
5. Modify Defense Dice
6. Compare results
7. Deal Damage
D. End phase:
1. remove tokens (except target locks)
2. resolve any “End Phase” abilities on cards.
*1 - for the CR90 that's gaining 3 Energy for speed 1 bank
*2 - moving the 3 energy out of the way, to weapons.
*3 - for using two TGS that's another 6 energy
But since the aft can only hold 5 going strictly by the steps that's 8 not 9.
I meant this in the context of the combat phase but the Single Turbolaser and Quad Laser Cannon both "spend energy from this card" which means it's still only 3 energy available for weapons on the first turn via step B7.
The second turn with the TGSs you would start with 5 energy before choosing your speed and know you'd have at least that for 2 Single Turbolasers or 5 Quad Laser Cannon shots before you decide that turns energy, and you could go speed four on the second turn if you felt you needed to.
A lot of people believe the opening is very important in a game, so perhaps better is one TGS on the first turn, and one TGS on the second turn, and you're set.
Correction:
Tibanna Gas Storage is a "Limited" card which means only one per ship.
Maybe there'll be something similar to TGS in the future and then it will work.
Alternatively, since the "limited" term started with the single card GR75 rules,
for the CR90 house rules to interpret ship as card (fore/aft) would make it work.
Edited by gabe69velasquez
But since the aft can only hold 5 going strictly by the steps that's 8 not 9.
Unless you resolve another energy card between both TGS cards.Targeting coordinator with sensor team should have something in range.
And if you use the 2 straight maneuver, engineering team gives you extra energy for a total of ten.
The entire idea has one big flaw: TGS is limited.
But gunner tells you to perform a primary weapon attack, not just any attack. So how could you argue that he allowes a new shot with a Quad Laser, or any other secondary weapon for that mater?
You're right I shouldn't be associating it so closely with the weapon that triggers it,
but my point is the Gunner makes up for less energy, to some degree.
Edited by gabe69velasquez
But since the aft can only hold 5 going strictly by the steps that's 8 not 9.
Unless you resolve another energy card between both TGS cards.Targeting coordinator with sensor team should have something in range.
And if you use the 2 straight maneuver, engineering team gives you extra energy for a total of ten.
The entire idea has one big flaw: TGS is limited.
I have to start keeping a closer eye on these new cards.
and second guessing my brilliant ideas,
I'm never strict enough with their use as it is...
I want to make a set of Imperial CR90 fore & aft pilot cards
and then use Darth Vader and Rebel Captive as crew. 
and that covers everything I need to know to use those miniatures, except of the odd thing that may need a FAQ.
That's the problem though. It actually doesn't, unless you're willing to use what are effectively house rules.
The ships with the Epic Icon can only be used in Epic Play or Cinematic Play, they can't be used in Standard Play. We however lack any sort of rules for list building for Epic Play other then what's in the Epic Tournament rules. Cinematic Play has rules for list building included with every mission released so far, often consisting of pre-set lists.
This is IMO a pretty big oversight on FFG's part, they either only released half the rules needed for Epic Play, or else intended for everyone to use the Epic Tournament Rules... Either way is bad.
Worse is, it's in a way to late to fix it. They already shipped the Epic ships, without Epic Play rules, so best thing they can do is release a PDF... Which while a partial fix, still relies on people finding and downloading it. Which flies in the face of the FFG's "everything you need in the box" policy for X-Wing.
They can be use in standard play, just not (specificaly) "100 point squads of standard play."
Again, you have to get your head out of 100 point builds and tournament builds.
I'm in the middle of a game with two 200 point builds and I don't see the problem.
"fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/X-Wing-Huge-Ship-Rules"
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/X-Wing-Huge-Ship-Rules.pdf
This can't be outdated can it? It says Huge Ship Rules,
so what do I need with any tournament rules when I don't play tournaments.
Check:
Before anyone corrects me, I just noticed the contradictory wording says "only in Epic Play" which is stupid if that is synonymous with Epic Play tournament rules. As if only people who play tournament should buy one.
Those huge ship rules should be enough, but I guess I'm going to have to check out the other ones as well.
I start to read this and it looks like any other tournament rules FAQ.
X-Wing-Epic-Tournament-Rules.pdf http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/X-Wing-Epic-Tournament-Rules.pdf
"100 point squads of standard play" is a pretty silly statement with regards
specifically to the CR90 considering you'd be fielding a 130+ point ship, ...
it's like saying you can't field it by itself.
So I'll stick to my 200+ point build battles and Huge Ship Rules,
and not assume I'm missing anything just because tournament people
are forced to use asteroids and other rules, thank-you-very-much.
Edited by gabe69velasquezSo I'll stick to my 200+ point build battles and Huge Ship Rules
That's fine, but you are effectively using house rules. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, just saying that you are using your own rules to play by. To a point you kind of have to, because there are no Epic Rules really, other then how the ships themselves work.
That means that if you're playing at a gaming shop, odds are the person you sit down may very well plan on playing by the tournament rules, as those are the only ones out there currently.
So I'll stick to my 200+ point build battles and Huge Ship Rules
That's fine, but you are effectively using house rules. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, just saying that you are using your own rules to play by. To a point you kind of have to, because there are no Epic Rules really, other then how the ships themselves work.
That means that if you're playing at a gaming shop, odds are the person you sit down may very well plan on playing by the tournament rules, as those are the only ones out there currently.
Ya, I get that on vassal...
"uh, what do you mean you're not using asteroids?"
That's not to say I agree with you, the Huge Ship Rules are the same as the rulebook that came with the GR75 and the rulebook that came with the CR90 and you won't convince me that I need more than that or that I'm playing by house rules, just because I don't agree to tournament rules, in the core rules asteroids are optional. ponder that.
In other words, the rulebook that came with the GR75 and the rulebook that came with the CR90 aren't just tournament rules, and between those two I'm not missing any rules. It's starting to sound silly, like if my wife and/or family, and/or friends want to have 250 point game we have to hold a tournament. Nonsense.
The first build had two TGS on purpose. 
In other words, the rulebook that came with the GR75 and the rulebook that came with the CR90 aren't just tournament rules, and between those two I'm not missing any rules.
Yes actually you are, and that's the whole point.
You have rules for how the ships work, but there is no published Epic Rules, which are apparently different then the Standard Rules, based on the Epic Icon section of the Huge Ship Rules. So we have no official rules, other then the Tournament version for things like point values, table size, ship restrictions, ect...
So if you want to play a 237 point fight on a 2.5x8 foot table you can, provided both sides agree to it. But other then the Tournament rules, there is no standard Epic Rules out there that covers how Epic games work.
From the Huge Ship rules, the very first rule:
Ships with the epic icon next to the card title on the Ship card can be fielded only in Epic Play.
The point Vanor is making is that we have no definition for what "Epic Play" actually means, except for the tournament structure.
I mean if I sit down with someone for standard game there are a number of things I can safely assume.
- We'll be playing with 100 point lists
- We'll be playing a 3x3 table
- We'll be using the standard list building rules, only one copy of a unique card, ect..
- Six asteroids if we agreed to use them, not 3 or 12.
- The first side to lose all their ships loses the match.
So there's all these things and more I can assume will be true if I sit down to play with someone, without us having to discuss anything ahead of time.
The same can't really be said about Epic Play, unless we both agree to use the Tournament rules, because there is no Epic Rules for things like point value, table size, ect...
Sure we use the standard rules as a foundation, but there are parts of the standard rules that just don't work when you break out the CR-90 or GR-75.
Let's hope ffg does come out with some clarification. Only problem is though, even if they do, who is to say everyone will go online and look it up.
All of us who are in here is a very small % of people who play, which means many would never know.
At the least ffg should have included some sort of format in the rules.
In the end though I guess it all up to the players how they want to play.
I mean we did a 2 vs 1 game 150+150/300 point game on my cousins poker table. Worked out well, though the table was no where near 6x3, though bigger than 3x3, and also hexagonal.
Only issue really is once the CR90 was out in the middle of the table or could reach everything everywhere
Edited by Krynn007