It isn't really needed, given that this is a story-based system and not a rules crunchy based system. If one is brawling, it could easily be described as kicks and punches. Use Athletics to move around the board and you've got the parkour-like elements of martial arts. No reason to create new rules for something that is just a variation on "I punch you".

It isn't really needed, given that this is a story-based system and not a rules crunchy based system. If one is brawling, it could easily be described as kicks and punches. Use Athletics to move around the board and you've got the parkour-like elements of martial arts. No reason to create new rules for something that is just a variation on "I punch you".

I think the same could be said for many specialization, but the uniqueness of such a specialization would not be in the skills, but that talents and how the tree is arranged.

If they didn't include a martial artist specialization in the future, I wouldn't be upset, but if they did I certainly wouldn't consider it a waste of page space.

It isn't really needed, given that this is a story-based system and not a rules crunchy based system. If one is brawling, it could easily be described as kicks and punches. Use Athletics to move around the board and you've got the parkour-like elements of martial arts. No reason to create new rules for something that is just a variation on "I punch you".

I think the same could be said for many specialization, but the uniqueness of such a specialization would not be in the skills, but that talents and how the tree is arranged.

If they didn't include a martial artist specialization in the future, I wouldn't be upset, but if they did I certainly wouldn't consider it a waste of page space.

Again, not really. You can explain the various defensive talents as Martial Arts vs some other factor. Results in the same dice pool either way, just changes the flavor of the character. 3 Marauders all fully built out could be described differently using the same Talents and Skills.

For me it's not even a rules issue. It's a fluff issue.

I don't want a Hong Kong style martial artist in a galaxy with Force powers and super strong aliens. It waters down the setting. I love Jackie Chan, but Jackie Chan vs. a Rancor? That's just stupid.

Player: "I run up the wall the and punch the rancor in the face!"

GM: "The rancor ignores your feeble fist and eats you."

Sometimes mixing genres works well. Here it's like chocolate and sausage.

I agree, a Hong Kong style martial artist would seem pretty out-of-place in Star Wars. However,

1) it's a big galaxy. Rationally speaking, there's likely to be some group of people somewhere that practices some kind of unarmed fighting style that is effective in combat.

2) Also, Force-using martial artist monks have been done (and, IMO, done well) in every previous Star Wars RPG system.

3) There's also a large chunk of Star Wars Legends that deals with Jedi and other Force users fighting with fists...Sora Bulq and Mace Windu come to mind as prime examples.

That's not to say that FFG must include this type of thing in F&D. I'm just saying that it's been a long-standing tradition, and I'd be very surprised if they didn't give some kind of nod to it. Seemed like F&D would be the likely place to do that.

I'm all for Force using martial artists. That's a setting specific adaptation that makes sense. It's the idea that you're not punching the rancor, so much as using your fist to guide the TK into it's brain.

I'd rather people creatively use the setting to make their favorite characters with a Star Wars spin. Just insisting that you should get your character your way makes sense to Burger King and children, but it won't make your friends happy.

Make your character within the rules of the setting so that it doesn't break the immersive qualities for everyone else.

3) There's also a large chunk of Star Wars Legends that deals with Jedi and other Force users fighting with fists...Sora Bulq and Mace Windu come to mind as prime examples.

To that point, there is a lot of "mixed" fighting in SW, both movies and TCW (I don't count EU). Just off the top of my head, there's that classic Darth Maul kick at Obiwan in E1, the strike that knocks him off the catwalk, and in TCW, Obiwan, Ventress, and Ahsoka all show their MA-sans-lightsaber capabilities plenty of times. (On that note, check out the TCW Bounty episode...Ventress sticks with hand-to-hand and doesn't pull out her lightsaber until the opposition pulls their knives.) But, all this stuff can be handled with all the current skills and talents, plus judicious use of advantages and triumphs.

MA is simply a style of fighting, and so far I can't think of anything in the rules that distinguishes a particular fighting style. So adding an MA tree would go against currently established protocol. They'd have to add "swordmaster", "blastermaster", "riflemaster", "axemaster"...etc.

I'm not saying poo poo on the idea of a martial arts spec, but I don't see it being fit into the EoE splatbooks. Maybe AoR I guess, but my question would be what isn't in the Marauder or Enforcer specs already that would make a martial arts spec particularly unique?

Marauder is good enough for Brawling, however I'm siding with the people who would like to see a martial arts spec. Perhaps keep it brawl and melee just like Marauder, but make it more agility based. Instead of all the soak, give it Dodge. Instead of Toughened, give it Grit. Make it use strain and advantages for neat abilities instead of just hitting harder and taking less damage. Maybe even a fixed version of pressure point. I'd also like to see a talent, perhaps an expensive hard to get one, that allows for brawl/melee to be made with agility instead of brawn. Make it like the Selonian (sp?) tail attack which uses agility dice but brawn for damage.

Marauder is good enough for Brawling, however I'm siding with the people who would like to see a martial arts spec. Perhaps keep it brawl and melee just like Marauder, but make it more agility based. Instead of all the soak, give it Dodge. Instead of Toughened, give it Grit. Make it use strain and advantages for neat abilities instead of just hitting harder and taking less damage. Maybe even a fixed version of pressure point. I'd also like to see a talent, perhaps an expensive hard to get one, that allows for brawl/melee to be made with agility instead of brawn. Make it like the Selonian (sp?) tail attack which uses agility dice but brawn for damage.

I look at the right column of BH Gadgeteer and you essentially get that, minus some Grit and using Agility though. Disorient, Stunning Blow, Improved Stunning Blow in particular lets you lock someone up with Triumphs and keep them from doing anything. Deadly Accuracy lets you heap damage on your attacks which is skilled based and not Brawn based.

BH Assassin, same things, Lethal Blows, a couple ranks of Dodge, Quickstrike, damage buffs based on Intellect, Agility, and relative skill level, Precise Aim. It just isn't called martial artist.

I think people just want something named martial artist when there are specs with talents that let you do all that without being called martial artist.

I'm not saying poo poo on the idea of a martial arts spec, but I don't see it being fit into the EoE splatbooks. Maybe AoR I guess, but my question would be what isn't in the Marauder or Enforcer specs already that would make a martial arts spec particularly unique?

I suppose time will tell. FFG has surprised me with some of the stuff they've come out with in the specializations present (Big Game Hunter, for example—I would have thought, "why not just use Survivalist?" But then they really delivered with an amazing specialization that stands well on its own). All I'm saying is, I think there's room for a "Martial Artist" type specialization, and I would expect it to be tied in somehow in the Force & Destiny line.

My reasoning here is assuming that Force & Destiny will have non-Force-tradition-specific talent trees that anyone can take, but that ALSO make particular sense for a Force user to pick up...for example: perhaps a martial artist, a mediator, an investigator, a mystic, a monk, a sage, a privateer, a ranger, a priest, a seer, etc. I

Speculation is fun

Marauder is good enough for Brawling, however I'm siding with the people who would like to see a martial arts spec. Perhaps keep it brawl and melee just like Marauder, but make it more agility based. Instead of all the soak, give it Dodge. Instead of Toughened, give it Grit. Make it use strain and advantages for neat abilities instead of just hitting harder and taking less damage. Maybe even a fixed version of pressure point. I'd also like to see a talent, perhaps an expensive hard to get one, that allows for brawl/melee to be made with agility instead of brawn. Make it like the Selonian (sp?) tail attack which uses agility dice but brawn for damage.

Totally. There's tons of room to play around with this idea, I think.

I think people just want something named martial artist when there are specs with talents that let you do all that without being called martial artist.

There are obviously many ways to make a "martial artist" in the current system. I don't think anyone would argue that. If you want to make a dude that uses his body as a weapon, there are many avenues to explore that will make you a very effective Brawler. No question. And you don't need to wait for "suchandsuch splatbook" to come out before you make a Teräs Käsi champion if that's the kind of character you really want to roleplay.

However, that doesn't mean there's "no room for martial arts" in later products.

MA is simply a style of fighting, and so far I can't think of anything in the rules that distinguishes a particular fighting style. So adding an MA tree would go against currently established protocol. They'd have to add "swordmaster", "blastermaster", "riflemaster", "axemaster"...etc.

Of course. I didn't mean to imply the specialization would be called "Martial Arts Master" and the talent tree would be all about awesome fighting moves. I envisioned something that had a martial artist/monk "flavor."

This discussion seems a bit like a game of ping pong

We are going to have some Lightsaber swinging folk here shortly, and I think the only way to really incorporate martial arts per se, wouldn't be a bare fisted spec. I think the 'Gunslinger' spec we all speculate about could be tweaked into 'Duelist' and would cover Two Weapon fighting to include all aspects, fists, swords, guns. That would be about the only unique way to do it that makes sense. A guy/gal/droid that can just throw hands really well I think is way too redundant.

Tried the previously mentioned house rule on a couple of sample games, first time around it made the whole fight very quick. Used opposed rolls for the fist fight, with success etc doing damage as per usual, while uncancelled failures meant damage was taken instead. With some bad rolls one of the fighters took damage on his attack, and again the same round on his opponents attack. Second time around the fight took a little longer, with both fighter spending strain like it was going out of fashion, and the fight became a slugging contest until the endurance ran out of one of them and he got nailed.

So far so good, will need to try out a few more scenarios.

Tried the previously mentioned house rule on a couple of sample games, first time around it made the whole fight very quick. Used opposed rolls for the fist fight, with success etc doing damage as per usual, while uncancelled failures meant damage was taken instead.

If the attacker fails does he take full damage or only 1 per Fail?

Tried the previously mentioned house rule on a couple of sample games, first time around it made the whole fight very quick. Used opposed rolls for the fist fight, with success etc doing damage as per usual, while uncancelled failures meant damage was taken instead.

If the attacker fails does he take full damage or only 1 per Fail?

In the play test it was full damage, but 1 point per fail is on the list to try out.

In the play test it was full damage, but 1 point per fail is on the list to try out.

Right after I posted that, I realized that it wouldn't work. 1 point of damage per fail would never get past the Soak.

The reason I didn't opt for damage on a fail was because of things like Dodge and Defensive Stance. If your opponent Dodges the attack, it doesn't really make sense that he would hit you for missing.

In the play test it was full damage, but 1 point per fail is on the list to try out.

Right after I posted that, I realized that it wouldn't work. 1 point of damage per fail would never get past the Soak.

The reason I didn't opt for damage on a fail was because of things like Dodge and Defensive Stance. If your opponent Dodges the attack, it doesn't really make sense that he would hit you for missing.

Good point on the soak, that should save some time.

As for using dodge, defensive stance etc. Easy enough to narrate the whole thing, after all, its all one big dice pool. Now, I hate to use a "real life" example, but here goes. Have you ever watched a UFC fight where some one charges in swingin but gets clocked on the way in ? then the other guy follows up with, well, whatever he pleases.