Just a quick question here, why is it the same difficulty to hit Jabba the Hutt and Jet Li ?

Both have the same difficulty modifier ? 2x Purple.

"Jet Li" probably has talents in dodging such dodge and side step.

"Jet Li" probably has talents in dodging such dodge and side step.

While dodge would apply, Jabba could also have it, as could a number of people. Side step only works on ranged attacks however. You may instead mean Defensive Stance, which would only work against melee, not brawl.

"Jet Li" probably has talents in dodging such dodge and side step.

While dodge would apply, Jabba could also have it, as could a number of people. Side step only works on ranged attacks however. You may instead mean Defensive Stance, which would only work against melee, not brawl.

Incorrect. P.205 upper right corner text box explains. The book's use of Melee both generically and specifically is poor word choice imo but the text box clarifies. Defensive Stance applies to both Melee and Brawl attacks.

If you wanted to consider a mature Hutt Silhouette 3 then it would be easier to hit him than a man sized target.

Just a quick question here, why is it the same difficulty to hit Jabba the Hutt and Jet Li ?

Both have the same difficulty modifier ? 2x Purple.

But in any case it shouldn't really matter, since there are roughly equivalent defensive measures one can take against any incoming attack, be it melee or ranged.

Jabba COULD have any number of Side-Steppy and Defensive Stance talents, but I would venture to say that he doesn't. He's not a particularly agile Hutt.

Jet Li, on the other hand, does not exist in the Star Wars universe and it is therefore impossible to hit him. That would be 1 Destiny Point in addition to 5 Difficulty dice to attempt the task.

In all seriousness, though, you've got all sorts of defensive talents, the Sense power, the Adversary talent for NPCs. And if Star-Wars-Jet-Li had a particularly generous GM, he might allow him the occasional Opposed Brawl check rather than just an Average difficulty to hit him.

Consider also that we don't have a ton of rules for a "martial artist" type character in this game yet. Maybe if/when we do, you will have a more satisfactory answer to your question but until then, a modest house rule would seem entirely adequate to me.

I do like what Skill Monkey on the Order 66 podcast talked about with Brawl. If you have a dedicated martial arts character you could allow them to take AGL as their ability to use with Brawl instead of Brawn. It is a good idea. This would help a Bruce Lee type (who is this pretender Jet Li) be more like the real thing. It doesn't really help with defense though.

Maybe in a toe to toe fight they roll opposed brawl checks when fighting like was stated above. Not in every fight, but in a showdown like Bruce vs. Chuck in a the Roman Colosseum would be time to pull out the opposed check.

On defense, in my face to face games (not play by post yet though i will see if the group likes the idea once I have play tested it) I am letting characters take focus areas each time they upgrade a skill. It gives them a boost when dealing with that particular area of the skill and separates the very general skills out. In Brawl, I currently have a focus called defense which gives you a boost to defending against Brawl attacks. This combined with some talents can make Bruce much harder to hit than Jabba. In melee, you have the parry focus for the same idea.

Unless of course Jedi master Norris comes to town. Then they all are defeated by his roundhouse kick.

Technically speaking, since the Norris roundhouse also has a time dialation effect, they are in fact defeated before he arrives in town.

I guess what I am trying to get my head around is why brawling skills only apply to offense, and not to defense.

I guess what I am trying to get my head around is why brawling skills only apply to offense, and not to defense.

That's a mechanical concession, or intention. First it keeps the game moving. If two super brawlers are fighting each other, it keeps the game from stagnating into "no results" round after round. There are talents where you can spend Strain to trigger certain defenses or difficulty upgrades, so even defending has a cost. But you can also boost your PC's ability to stand against the onslaught longer, by buying Toughness and Grit and that-talent-that-boosts-Soak (AFB at the moment). Soak is better than Defense, IMHO.

Second it keeps the power curve flatter. Stormtroopers will always be a threat in this game, even if they end up doing little more than passing advantages (boost die) to their leader. I find this a lot more satisfying than D20's eventual immunity-to-everything or WoD's super-lethality. But there are trade-offs with every system. The only system I felt really captured hand-to-hand combat well was Chivalry and Sorcery 2nd ed, but it was a deathly boring grind once combat began.

If two super brawlers are fighting each other, it keeps the game from stagnating into "no results" round after round.

Because the bad dice have fewer failures than the good dice have successes. Opposed rolls of characters of equal skill should result in hits more than 50% of the time.

Hand-to-hand fights in the source material almost always involve lightsabers and either the skilled combatant slaughters their unskilled opponents (i.e. any Jedi vs any non-jedi) or actual hits are very rare.

Don't forget the advantage system in all this.

A highly skilled combatant is going to have more advantage/triumphs to play with, and can use them defensively. Adding black die to an opponent, increasing difficulty, and applying lower scale crits that hamper an opponent are all defensive in nature. A sufficiently imaginative player can likely come up with uses with no specific mechanical advantages that could easily be defensive as well.

Don't forget the advantage system in all this.

A highly skilled combatant is going to have more advantage/triumphs to play with, and can use them defensively. Adding black die to an opponent, increasing difficulty, and applying lower scale crits that hamper an opponent are all defensive in nature. A sufficiently imaginative player can likely come up with uses with no specific mechanical advantages that could easily be defensive as well.

This seems to me to be an argument against the RAW and in favor of an opposed roll. Otherwise, when two skilled combatants meet, the character who wins the initiative will get an alpha strike; not only a hit but plenty of extra advantages to screw over his opponent (crits, dropped weapons, etc), before his equally skilled opponent has a chance to perform any defensive maneuvers. Marauders, for example, don't get Dodge which is the only defense against the first blow.

Don't forget the advantage system in all this.

A highly skilled combatant is going to have more advantage/triumphs to play with, and can use them defensively. Adding black die to an opponent, increasing difficulty, and applying lower scale crits that hamper an opponent are all defensive in nature. A sufficiently imaginative player can likely come up with uses with no specific mechanical advantages that could easily be defensive as well.

This seems to me to be an argument against the RAW and in favor of an opposed roll. Otherwise, when two skilled combatants meet, the character who wins the initiative will get an alpha strike; not only a hit but plenty of extra advantages to screw over his opponent (crits, dropped weapons, etc), before his equally skilled opponent has a chance to perform any defensive maneuvers. Marauders, for example, don't get Dodge which is the only defense against the first blow.

Well he who hittest firstest in a fist fight typically winnest............

Most competitive fighting actually supports the idea that he who hits hardest in a fist fight typically wins. That is why they have weight classes. The really good, really strong big guy tends to beat the little guy. So you could argue that the Jedi Jet Li would not stand a chance vs. jedi Mike Tyson. This supports the idea of brawn over agility in a brawl.

Don't forget the advantage system in all this.

A highly skilled combatant is going to have more advantage/triumphs to play with, and can use them defensively. Adding black die to an opponent, increasing difficulty, and applying lower scale crits that hamper an opponent are all defensive in nature. A sufficiently imaginative player can likely come up with uses with no specific mechanical advantages that could easily be defensive as well.

This seems to me to be an argument against the RAW and in favor of an opposed roll. Otherwise, when two skilled combatants meet, the character who wins the initiative will get an alpha strike; not only a hit but plenty of extra advantages to screw over his opponent (crits, dropped weapons, etc), before his equally skilled opponent has a chance to perform any defensive maneuvers. Marauders, for example, don't get Dodge which is the only defense against the first blow.

In my experience from fencing, usually the one acting first controls the action until a significant shift occurs. There were also cases where a student with far less experience than me pushed me back onto the defensive because they moved faster than I expected (higher initiative) but then could not keep it because of the effects of proper form and better ingrained reactions (More ranks).

All that said, any kind of combat (even sport) is more than just form and reflexes. There is a whole plethora of skills that combine for true competence, and in this system these are represented by talents and added skills like Cool and Vigilance. Fighters are going to buy into Dodge to give them a way to react to that alpha strike, and invest in Cool/Vigilance to improve their odds of THEM making the first move. If they go for a heavyweight style they are going to instead prioritize investing in Lethal Blows to improve the real damage of their hits and give them more of a chance of a knockout blow, as well as adding Toughness and Grit to survive the hits they take. So far the system has all the pieces to make a solid martial artist, they are just not all wrapped up in one tree and pointed out.

Don't forget the advantage system in all this.

A highly skilled combatant is going to have more advantage/triumphs to play with, and can use them defensively. Adding black die to an opponent, increasing difficulty, and applying lower scale crits that hamper an opponent are all defensive in nature. A sufficiently imaginative player can likely come up with uses with no specific mechanical advantages that could easily be defensive as well.

This seems to me to be an argument against the RAW and in favor of an opposed roll. Otherwise, when two skilled combatants meet, the character who wins the initiative will get an alpha strike; not only a hit but plenty of extra advantages to screw over his opponent (crits, dropped weapons, etc), before his equally skilled opponent has a chance to perform any defensive maneuvers. Marauders, for example, don't get Dodge which is the only defense against the first blow.

Well he who hittest firstest in a fist fight typically winnest............

In this game that pretty well applies to all forms of combat. Getting in the first shot with your heaviest hit (which may actually be stun or ion damage at times) goes a long way toward winning. This is why I always assume that fighters start a fight with their missiles/torpedoes (as doing otherwise means that there is a good chance they'll be destroyed before they get to use them).

So, if we get the Kung Fu fighter spec, if, what Career? Realistically we only have Smuggler or BH left, Technician would be all wonky. Does it flow in EoE, or do you think maybe a Career in AoR is better served? Soldier? Spy? I don't see it as a strong likelihood since I think Marauder is pretty much geared towards it.

Im going to try the opposed roll thing, with uncancelled failures counting toward damage against the attacker in the same way successes would for the attacker.

This should speed up any possible slug fests with damage being able to be done during both the attackers and defenders initiative slots.

Will need some play testing first.

So, if we get the Kung Fu fighter spec, if, what Career? Realistically we only have Smuggler or BH left, Technician would be all wonky. Does it flow in EoE, or do you think maybe a Career in AoR is better served? Soldier? Spy? I don't see it as a strong likelihood since I think Marauder is pretty much geared towards it.

It's hard to say what sort of stuff may be coming down the pipe for Force and Destiny, particularly in non-force user careers, we could see a bare knuckle brawler.

I think we have to consider plethora of factors when it comes to martial arts in Star Wars games.

For one thing Star Wars takes a fairly realistic view of brawling for non-Jedi. i.e Chewie grabs a AT-ST pilot and tosses him out of the cockpit. Why is this realistic? Because Chewie is ridiculously strong compared to a human and mass/strength in a fight trumps all. Jet Li versus an olympic heavy-weight wrestler is a foregone conclusion. Jet-Li loses. Even the best submission hold only works if you are strong enough to maintain it (never mind applying it to someone so much bigger and stronger than you).

The story changes a bit if Jet Li has all his Hong Kong wire setup. Then he gets to do all his physics-defying tricks. Hint: In real life if you make a wall run to jump over your opponent, and punch them in mid-air it will do next to nothing. It'd be like punching someone while floating in water.

Physics-defying tricks are the realm of the Force in Star Wars. So our hypothetical Star Wars Jet Li is clearly a Jedi. Jedi have access to the Sense power. SW Jet Li's enemies are rolling two red dice to hit him even if Jet does nothing. If Jet uses more active defenses like Side Step and Dodge an unskilled opponent will miss the vast majority of the time.

Conclusion: the system is working as intended. If you want to play the short, fast guy and beat up big, strong guys you need to use the Force.

Doctors are the best brawlers =p

I would fully expect some sort of Martial Artist specialization to show up in Force & Destiny. Force-using, fist-fighting monks are a longstanding tradition in Star War RPG: the Followers of Palawa, Wardens of the Sky, and Seyugi Dervishes all relied on the Force and their fists Matukai, Baran Do, and Aing-Tii also have the "monk" vibe, although the Baran Do are a fairly non-militant tradition and the Matukai tend to favor the wan-shen when fighting.

Even some Jedi were known to have an affinity for hand-to-hand combat, and the original Je'daii order has a temple dedicated to Martial Arts.

This is mostly all according to Legend, of course, but it is also from previous RPG lines so there's a lot of tradition there. The creators of this Star Wars RPG are die-hard Star Wars fans. I would be surprised if we didn't have something in the way of a martial artist in the F&D line, at least.

Doctors are the best brawlers =p

Wookiee Doctor ftw

I would fully expect some sort of Martial Artist specialization to show up in Force & Destiny. Force-using, fist-fighting monks are a longstanding tradition in Star War RPG: the Followers of Palawa, Wardens of the Sky, and Seyugi Dervishes all relied on the Force and their fists Matukai, Baran Do, and Aing-Tii also have the "monk" vibe, although the Baran Do are a fairly non-militant tradition and the Matukai tend to favor the wan-shen when fighting.

Even some Jedi were known to have an affinity for hand-to-hand combat, and the original Je'daii order has a temple dedicated to Martial Arts.

This is mostly all according to Legend, of course, but it is also from previous RPG lines so there's a lot of tradition there. The creators of this Star Wars RPG are die-hard Star Wars fans. I would be surprised if we didn't have something in the way of a martial artist in the F&D line, at least.

My apologies for going a bit off topic from the original post, but if there is a martial artist career or specialization in F&D, I hope it's not directly tied to being force sensitive. Of course something like a brawler or martial artist would be a wonderful specialization to take for your force sensitive to turn him in to a Baran Do sage, but the arts martial shouldn't have to be exclusive to force sensitives.

I don't see a martial artist in the cards only because we essentially have it in Marauder. It's talents can buff Brawl as well as Melee, it has some defense talents, a player can always use Guarded Stance, other than reskinning Marauder with a rank or two of Dodge or Defensive Stance, I'm not sure that is enough reason to bother.

I would fully expect some sort of Martial Artist specialization to show up in Force & Destiny.

I have to say I'd fully not expect that at all, and I'd be disappointed if they did. It wouldn't really have a place in F&D and would feel tacked on, and it's not like they need filler, the trouble will be what to cut.

Also, Star Wars is about the only franchise where the "final confrontation" doesn't devolve down into a punch fest.* Between blasters and lightsabers, punching seems like a last resort. Regardless, the talents that exist are plenty applicable to martial arts, and the mechanics work fine already, making punching work quite well. If they ever come out with "Dangerous Covenants 2" that might be the place for more detail, but certainly not in F&D.

* It is a solid part of Star Trek, but I worry that Abrams will carry it over.