Two Weapon Wielding and Forearm Weapon Mounts

By cpteveros, in Only War Rules Questions

In my current campaign, I as the sergeant have acquired an Eviscerator chainsword through a lucky roll and an Inquisitor's box. Since this mighty weapon is a two handed sword, it kind of ruins my build of a chainsword/laspistol wielder. I have Ambidextrous and both Two Weapon Wielder talents, so those kind of went down the drain.

That is, until I got an idea. What if I mounted the laspistol with the forearm weapon mount? That way I could have my Eviscerator, as well as shoot my laspistol as is described on the Two Weapon Fighting page of the rules (pg 252). I am all set to do this, except now I wonder about the other arm? I could certainly mount another laspistol, but would I be able to use it?

Since I have Ambidextrous and the Two Weapon Wielder (ranged) talents, I know I could fire both laspistols in the same half action. Since I also have Two Weapon Wielder (melee), I know I could fire a laspistol and hit with a melee weapon in a half action. What do you guys think about combining these too? Would it be feasible to shoot the two laspistols in one half action, then hit with the Eviscerator in the next? Assuming the pistols are forearm mounted on each arm, that is.

I'm pretty sure you couldn't use all three weapons, because that would require two separate actions with the attack type, which isn't allowed. The rest seems okay to me.

By RAW, you can never have more than two attacks at once, so your plan fails on that. You'd be able to shoot and then take a swing with the sword, though.

However, if I was your GM, I'd rule that since you need to two-hand grip the Eviscerator, you can't really make a good aim with your Forearm-Mounted weapon. At the very least, I'd slap you with a pretty heavy penalty to get the wrist into a position to be shot from while still having your Eciscerator readied.

Either way, what you could do that might be cool would be to simply have two different kinds of pistols on your Forearm Mounts. Such as having a Melta (which is amazing in close quarters) on one and a Hellpistol or similar on the other.

A better solution might be a Shoulder-mounted MIU Weapons Interface, if you can get one. I'm not sure how you'd pull it off in Only War, but an optimal setup would probably be the Eviscerator, two Melta-Pistols on Forearm Weapon Mounts, and a shoulder-mounted MIU Weapons Interface with a Hellgun. That way, you can shoot long range, fight in melee with the sword, or use both melta-pistols at close-to-medium range for big targets (or, you know, walls).

Just some thoughts.

Imho that should not work, and if somehow, with hefty penalties.

The talent "Sidearm" clearly states that its bonus is for weapons you could use single-handed.

Even more important though is the fact that your additional attack and penalty reduction only gets activated with the "Two-weapon Wielder" Talents that also requires two single-handed weapons.

Same goes with the entire paragraph (P. 252) dedicated to two-handed Weapons, where the introduction makes it clear that two single-handed weapons are required.

Also the argumentation that you shoot after you have swung the Sword is somewhat lackey for these attack happen more or less simultaneously. They are both half actions though they are treated like they happen in the very same half action all together. That way you still require both of your arms to make the attack and the Pistol on the Forearm-Mounting is just as useful as if it had been in its holster on your belt.

Edited by FieserMoep

Why not just ask your GM if you can use the evicerator one handed as a rather weighty sixteen kilogram chainsword using the standard chainsword stats (maybe a custom pen as 2 is a big drop from 9) and the evicerators's unwieldy rule instead of balanced?.

Edited by Askil

Or hand the eviscerator (that you do not really want?) in to get a more appropriate weapon?

I still say that the easiest solution must be to get a MIU Weapons Interface instead. It's probably harder to get than the Forearm Weapon Mounts, but it bypasses all of the potential issues, and it definitely works by RAW (afaik).

Edited by Fgdsfg

Well, an MIU would grant him an Attack Action as a Free action. But it would not allow him to attack several times during his turn and hence would just be another gun, but not helping with his real problem - and that is utilizing a two-handed weapon with two-weapon wielder talents.

Also that kind of gear with forearm melters would be rather... strange for a mere sergeant - even for an inquisitor himself. But that depends on the GM and at last he allowed him to get his hands on an eviscerator (though I wonder how he got his hands on that thing without even wanting it).

I had wanted an eviscerator as I like chainswords and that's kind of how I wanted to play my sergeant to begin with, but I didn't get the eviscerator until after I had bought the two weapon wielding talents. It's a great weapon for taking down big baddies, but I still want to be able to use the talents I bought.

As for the rules, I see now what you mean about using the two single-handed weapons only. I will talk to my GM and see if he will let me one-hand the eviscerator at the chainsword stat line so I can use the pistol.

I do, however, like the idea of the two forearm mounted guns as an alternative to the melee weapon. That might be what I do instead! I was thinking autopistols, since those are relatively easy to acquire (we are in a forward outpost on Skrynne, a jungle world) compared to plasma or inferno pistols. Possibly hellpistols instead? I guess the question becomes whether or not I want the several shots, or the couple big ones.

Well you can always ask your GM but honestly I would also offer some drawback for wielding a two-handed weapon like a one handed one, with the possibility to two-hand it when needed might be kinda to good and bending the rules. So maybe add unwieldy (Preventing you from parrying and lightning attacking) to the chain sword profile and add the chance of hitting yourself on a roll of 91+ from older versions (or was it 96+)? Also maybe a requirement of 60+ Strength to only be able to do such a feat?

Edited by FieserMoep

Couldn't you perhaps ask your GM if you can still trade those Talents back in for the XP? Depending on how long you had (and profited from) them, this might be a lot better than various possibly game- and/or fluff-breaking alternatives.

Personally, I'd say wielding an Eviscerator with the Chainsword statline would be (1) too generous and (2) immersion-breaking, as this pretty much makes normal Chainswords redundant (just get the Eviscerator instead for the added two-hand option, it's like the charge slider for melee weapons!) and an Eviscerator is waaay too heavy to be properly utilised as a one-handed weapon. This isn't a "bastard sword" middle ground, it's a huge slab of metal that is ridiculously difficult to wield even with two arms!

The very least I would require would be the -20 penalty on Attack and Parry rolls, like when you're trying to use a Basic Weapon with one hand instead of two.

A better solution might be a Shoulder-mounted MIU Weapons Interface, if you can get one. I'm not sure how you'd pull it off in Only War, but an optimal setup would probably be the Eviscerator, two Melta-Pistols on Forearm Weapon Mounts, and a shoulder-mounted MIU Weapons Interface with a Hellgun. That way, you can shoot long range, fight in melee with the sword, or use both melta-pistols at close-to-medium range for big targets (or, you know, walls).

I swear you just described the love child of Iron Man and a Predator. :P

...can we refluff the Jump Pack to be Rocket Boots?

I don`t see why holding a huge chainsword in one hand and struggling to swing it properly is immersion breaking.

He found the thing he should use it as he sees fit (unless it`s HERESY then I`d shoot him.)

I`d let him use it as a chainsword if he wants, but I`d remove his strength bonus to damage, give it unweildy, adjust pen to 5 and make a note to make botches on a 90+ epic failures (the chainsword tears out of his grip and fies through the air kinda thing) but that`s just me.

Well, aside from other sword-like weapons being rather absurdly heavy (regular sword 3kg? That is a frigging two handed great sword in real life!) the 15kg of an Eviscerator are hard to believe to be in a single hand unless you are some sort of crazy strong person. Even if we do not compare real life (where we would find several other problems too ;) ) the difference between a regular chain sword with its 6kg and an eviscerator is just too big to be somewhat believable unless he is some sort of hulk with a 60 in his strength and maybe toughness characteristic and some other drawbacks that have been introduced in the thread so far.

If you immersion is based upon the guardsmen being somewhat comparable to any sort of human - consider it broken at this point.^^

"GM, I can wield a 15kg Sword in my Hand and swing it around like it is nothing, why cant I tear that locked steel door open with one hand?"

PS: Just to be sure, I am not completely against it though you have to explain it both stat and RP wise in addition with some sort of basic balancing. A character like Gregor Clegane (GoT anyone? xD) that is maybe a sergeant of a Finreht Highlander Regiment might bear such a weapon as a honorary "gift" and be a rather intimidating figure on the battle field - but still that is not an ordinary thing that should be taken just for the sake of making use of some talents you bought down the line - with that argument you could try to also make Plasma Mastery adaptable to Knifes just because you changed your mind.

Edited by FieserMoep

[...] and make a note to make botches on a 90+ epic failures (the chainsword tears out of his grip and fies through the air kinda thing) but that`s just me.

In both earlier versions of the Eviscerator, which were noticeably less buff than the Only War version (DH: 1d10+10 R, Pen 5, Tearing, Unwieldy, 12kg; OW: 2d10 R, Pen 9, Razor Sharp, Tearing, Unwieldy, 15kg), on a roll of 96-100, the user had to take an Agility Check or be struck by the weapon himself.

Note that when I say "noticeably more buff", while the DH version(s) do more dependable damage with it's damage range of 11-20 (+SB) against OW:s 2-20 (+SB), the OW version has twice the chance to do Righteous Fury/Zealous Hatred, and it gets +1 Crit.Dmg. when doing so. It also has a high chance to double it's already stellar Penetration of 9 to a crazy 18 Penetration, potentially bisecting even Power Armour. Tearing (w/ Talents allows you to roll three times and take the best roll) does a hell of a lot more for a 2d10 weapon than a 1d10+10, greatly mitigating the lack of reliability.

On the other hand, the old Eviscerators were only Scarce, while the OW ones are Very Rare. There's a pretty good argument to be made that they are simply very similar weapons of different quality and make.

That being said, there is definitely a good precedence for telling the player "You failed so hard with swinging that you hurt yourself unless you can dodge it". Regardless of whether it's when one-handing the Eviscerator or not.

Again, that being said, I would never let someone one-hand an Eviscerator without slapping such a heavy penalty onto it that it would be infeasible. Also, as it already has Unwieldy, it would do nothing to give it again. I want to stress that we are talking about someone one-handing a swirling-although-well-balanced piece of twisting metal that often lack basic security features (such as a backpiece shielding, depending on what fluff we go by) that weighs 15kg.

Go on, go out into your backyard and swing around your average 3-4 year old child for a while and see how your arm feels.

Please don't do that.

I'd make my player a deal. Dump it down to 1d10 instead of 2d10 when one-handing it, but it will be used at a -40 unless he has Bulging Biceps, at which point it will "only" be -20. Also, regardless of one-handing shenanigans or two-handing, on a roll of 96-100, you cut yourself unless you use a Dodge to.. well.. Dodge. If you are for some reason dual-wielding this, I'd allow you to Parry too, but.. yeah, no, let's not go there.

This is also affected by whatever penalty you have to use the weapon. You are untrained, one-handing and don't have Bulging Biceps? That's -60. Trained, one-handing and Bulging Biceps? Still -20. Regular use with two hands? Regular test, +0.

Actually, the regular test should be +10, as per a Standard Attack. +0 would be a Swift Attack, for melee weapons.

I'd make my player a deal. Dump it down to 1d10 instead of 2d10 when one-handing it, but it will be used at a -40 unless he has Bulging Biceps, at which point it will "only" be -20.

At that point, it'd pretty much be an chainsword with inferior damage but better pen though.

Actually, the regular test should be +10, as per a Standard Attack. +0 would be a Swift Attack, for melee weapons.

I'd make my player a deal. Dump it down to 1d10 instead of 2d10 when one-handing it, but it will be used at a -40 unless he has Bulging Biceps, at which point it will "only" be -20.

At that point, it'd pretty much be an chainsword with inferior damage but better pen though.

My idea wasn't to make Eviscerators a viable one-hand weapon. Rather, my intent was to show that they're not and my idea of what penalties you'd suffer if you did.

Yes, it was, and I suppose I should've been clearer what I was reacting to:

Regular use with two hands? Regular test, +0.

This implies to me, a Standard Attack with two hands and the appropriate training.

I agree with all the rest you said, it was only a minor nitpick.

Yes, it was, and I suppose I should've been clearer what I was reacting to:

Regular use with two hands? Regular test, +0.

This implies to me, a Standard Attack with two hands and the appropriate training.

I agree with all the rest you said, it was only a minor nitpick.

A "regular test" isn't a rules term, and a Standard Attack is a specific Attack Action that provides a +10 modifier. A "regular test" is always a 0, modified by Modifiers such as Difficulty or weapon-specific peculiarities, and in this case, my only intent was to point out that there were no modifiers; "Regular test, +0".

There's really no other way to word it with clarity that I can think of, without being needlessly precise and cite examples of various attacks, which would muddle the point and be potentially confusing.

Edited by Fgdsfg

I still say let him use it as a basic chainsword with unwieldy, no SB to damage and penalties to attack rolls from weight (which I had mistakenly thought were a standard rule, due to reading too many rulebooks at the same time.)

In short it wouldn't be at all easy, it would be tiring, risky and backbreakingly hard work to use an evicscerator in combat one handed but it should be possible. Hell a powerfist is thirteen kilograms and that's designed for using as a glove between fights.

Hell if you can aim an eighteen kilogram plasmagun at somebody one handed for a -20 to hit you should be able to swing a big sword at somebody one handed with the same penalty.

As a person who regularly hefts my child and other things in the 15-20 kilogram range about it's far from impossible, uncomfortable? yes, hard on the shouders and spine? yes, but hardly a feat of unnatural or superhuman ability.

Edited by Askil

The child example teased me, I cant resist. xD

As someone that learned german fencing from manuals like Talhoffer and has some sort of experience with sword fighting I can guarantee you that though 3kg sound less, it is some serious stuff, and here we are talking about great swords that can go up to 1.70m and more.

The thing that screws you is the lever effect and momentum, not just the simple weight in numbers in combination with the time you have to keep that up. Real world physics do not apply and yes, fighting, in a competent way, IS impossible with such a 15kg tool. The power fist though is more believable for it is like a "glove" and its weight is folded around your arm and stabilizing your joints. Even more you do not have to build up a huge momentum of your own for the description states that the field builds up instantly to amplify your attack instead of being just a glorified butter knife like a sword.

So it is actually somewhat of an impossible feat that should be overcome with a hefty number off penalties. It is nothing for the effect but for the style.

Try to lift your 15kg child with a fully stretched arm, bring it in a right angle and wobble the child up and down with a 180° arc as fast as possible. Now keep that speed and make clear movement, tell me how long that works, I doubt any longer than five minutes. And that is the easy mode.

Nuff of nerd rage.^^

Edited by FieserMoep

So I don't think I will be one-handing the eviscerator any time soon, but I like the MIU Hellpistol, forearm mounted (plasma is more likely) pistols, and then of course, my eviscerator. I will definitely have to see if I can make it happen!

If plasma pistols prove too hard to acquire, what would be an acceptable substitute? Hand cannons? Hellpistols? Autopistols?

So I don't think I will be one-handing the eviscerator any time soon, but I like the MIU Hellpistol, forearm mounted (plasma is more likely) pistols, and then of course, my eviscerator. I will definitely have to see if I can make it happen!

If plasma pistols prove too hard to acquire, what would be an acceptable substitute? Hand cannons? Hellpistols? Autopistols?

In Only War, you can use an MIU Weapon Interface for shoulder-mounted Basic weapons (if I remember correctly), so for that, go for a Hellgun if you can, not a Hellpistol.

For the Forearm-Mounted pistol(s), I really recommend Melta, because it would be your mid-to-close-range option, and Melta-property weapons have an absolutely crazy Penetration and close ranges. Dual-wield non-Best-Craftsmanship Plasma Pistols and you'll have to count on having both your hands blown clear off, and if I was your GM, I wouldn't even let you drop those things once they blow, because they're literally mounted to your forearms.

It's a bit unrealistic for you to get a hold of this whole getup, though. But if you can't find Melta Pistols or Plasma Pistols (whichever you want), I'd go with whatever you can get, aiming first at Hellpistols. Autopistols might also work, it depends on how your regiment is geared. If it's a primarily SP-based regiment, you might want to consider a Sniper Rifle for the MIU Weapon Interface and Autoguns for the Forearm Weapon Mounts.

If it's a Las-based regiment, one cool thing to do might be to get a Hellgun for the shoulder, two Hellpistols for the Forearm Weapon Mounts, and a Backpack Power Pack, and ask your GM if you can plug all of the weapons into it at the same time, giving you 80 shots regardless of what weapon you use.

Leaving the chopping weapon aside.

I don't think strapping anything that makes vast quantities of heat to your forearm (where you can't drop it) is a good idea. Wrist boltpistol fine, wrist needler awesome but the sooner we can get over those Fett boys and their silly arm mounted thermal weapons the better.

That said it would be hilarious to have a badass NPC fry themselves with a wristmounted plasma/flamer/melta malfunction at a critical moment.

Edited by Askil