Archimedes said:

Different circumstances. I got upset because I was astonished you had the nerve to call me out on a HanzoKick, a horrible decktype that I personally built in response to a certain player, as if it was good? It's not good dude. It's not.

Spike, Concealed, and Yoga Roundhouse are all different decks off different symbols during different circumstances. Feline is generally ran with other attacks, and has a multitude of counters. When CSS was around, counters were quite limited, and unlike Spike of today, which requires multiples (and thus momentum to win), Concealed just needed itself, and of course, the foundation support.

Besides, my entire point is that Cobra Blow Hilde will never win anything, and so far, my point holds true. I think it's a lousy strategy to just rely on one win condition with no other alternatives, and while in some cases that was viable because it was so quick and so foolproof the opponent could not do anything about it, Hilde's strategy isn't that.

Arch, I was extremely impressed to hear of your results, and after reading your report, I can see how you could've won. Still, I think Hilde will pretty much fall under the radar, or at very least, be ran differently.

And as always, you're still an ******* Homme

When you throw Cobra Hilde up against other aggro characters (Astrid, Zi Mei, Ragnar, Elena, Donovan) there's one key thing most people aren't noticing. In order for Hilde to monstersize an attack, she has to commit. Zi Mei and crew have other or no costs whatsoever. Also all they really rely on is their own character abilites, not Cobra Blow, a crap ton of damage redux, and a Healer/TKDZ. I think that's one of Marco's points. Hilde requires a few pieces to really work right, while Zi Mei can just smash your face in with her ability.

B-Rad said:

Eh, my main point is that, in the dictionary of Shinji, a good deck is defined by being able to handle most common-day circumstances with realistic answers and solutions, and further more, has more than one win strategy .

It seems like every time somebody discovers either a loop, or a way of uberboosting attacks, the way is dismissed shortly. The problem is that people enlist too much faith and promise in their loop that they fail to realize it's all just a theory. Like I'd said, in some circumstances, yes, the guy who's running the deck with the loop literally does run all the necessary pieces to protect the loop. However, generally such universally-safe cards are banned or errata'd, and as such, things have more risk and require more skill.

There's no denying that HanzoKick, CobraHilde, and other decks that require one strategy can win. However, it's the versatility that a deck has that ends up winning it.

Although I HATE it when those "counter proponents" come out of the woodwork and say that X-card shouldn't be banned just because counters exist, I can't lie, against loop decks, the argument IS that counters exist, which is pretty much my platform. I realize an intelligent player calculates their move before they go in for the kill, no duh. But I'm saying that you'd be better off without such a high risk high reward deck. Unlike certain fighting games *coughTekkencough*, card games don't really work well with the high risk high reward thing. Our game is finally moving down a path where every card stands a chance. The reason why all these loop strategies and uber powerful attacks haven't been errata'd or banned is because theyr'e clearly not consistant enough to be a problem. The only exception being CSS, but again, that was a different time period, and there truly was nothing around to stop that **** thing.

MarcoPulleaux said:

False. There was plenty of E negation. It was just the fact that the decks that used CSS took care of said E negation before it could become a problem.

HolyDragonCloud said:

Yeah, it had Addes =/

Homme Chapeau said:

Well, I don't know who he is any more than I know who you are, so idiocy is something I have to evaluate -after- I read whatever is said rather than doing so by precedent. In this case though, I just felt that failed2k was being a bit unfair in reprimanding the conversation, and then Marco Bollox goes and says something exceptionally stupid that validates failed's complaints.

If I was just concerned with calling out stupidity, there was a post a bit ago somewhere where someone (might've been Marco) took like 3 huge paragraphs to basically say "just because a deck is good and versatile, and wins, doesn't mean it's good or versatile, or wins". It was unadulterated running at the mouth, but hey, it wasn't disturbing anything else , so why not just let 'em stick their foot in their mouth?=D

Also, if decks that always went for the kill the same way never really succeed, why was the first really broken deck that caught on in the game Maelstrom Ken? I guess a lot of people don't remember as far back as when Maelstrom Ken, nuke Cassy, Tycho and "Attaki" were the core of the metagame. They pretty much all used single-minded bullcrap to win, but Maelstrom Ken had the distinction of overrunning most of them with one kill condition. This was a deck that had tons of attacks in it and STILL used the same card to kill every time.

Archimedes said:

Polygon said:

Maelstrom Ken was the first deck I ever had. Thing was hot-ness. At the time I was so stupid though, I ran like 80 cards in the deck and not enough of them where anything good/useful.

I remember Omar's Cassandra deck like a bad dream. It ran a crap ton of foundations, and killed you with Reverse Waterfall...easily. The thing was a giant heaping pile of NPE.

Why does everyone think that you need Cobra to win with Hilde? Lynx is plent enough for me. Just give me a healer and either have any for of reduction on the field or in your hand and it's GG. I think fire Hilde is Bleh anyways. Good Hilde eats face.

Cobra Blow allows Hilde to eat Rejection alive.

Lynx Tail -4

Cage Arena -7

Hilde -1

Hilde double= 30low23

Rejection=30low1

Cobra Blow=30low28

and if they don't have Rejection, Lynx tail=30low40 (Hugo die plzkthnx)

It's a simple matter of redundancy in a format with an incredibly powerful action from the hand. You don't need it to win, it just helps.

Lynx Tale-4

Hilde -1

Hilde double= 16low9

Cobra Blow=16low22

Being a Hilde player, I'd like to think I could add something to this...

Why does everyone assume that Lynx Tail is the only way you can kill with a Hilde deck? I didn't even run Cobra Blow in my Hilde build until very recently, and yes, it is a very good way of making that Lynx Tail hit, but the assumption that Lynx Tail is Hilde's only killer is a fatal one. If Rejection worries you, Midnight Launcher has Fire too, and a swift Amy's/Healer or TKDZ/Hilde would quickly sort out that problem. Why not play her off Good, and use Feline Spike as well as Lynx Tail? If it's their staging area that bothers you, use Ira-Spinta with a Hilde maneuver. The reason Hilde is as good asd she is (and I believe she is that good, hence me playing her) is that she's extremely versatile in what attacks she can run. You can generally see what sort of foundation base she's going to play before you start the game, but then when couldn't you do that with any character? The attacks you play are what make her what she is. Playing her with Lynx Tail works very well, but it is most certainly NOT the only way to play her. Anyone who thinks otherwise is more ignorant than I thought.

^^Arch, Cage Arena on a 0 damage attack does not contribute to Hilde's count of damage reduced.

Basically, the way I see it is this; you can either run Cobra Blow, or play for the long game with no real chance of a T2/T3 win. Possibly using Lightning Horn, which ***** Rejection even harder than Cobra Blow 8)

I don't run Cobra Blow at all and my deck still has no problem against rejection whatsoever. If I know my opponent is running rejection(or even has the possibilty of running it) I make sure that I have an Arrogant and Insolent on the Field and just ready her and use her effect again for even stupider damage thanks to the rejection.

The build I use goes off on T2 or T3 about 80% of the time if not more. So adding in a 2 check would slow the deck down I think as I could check it at a fatal time or during early building and my deck would probably lose.

Wafflecopter said:

I think Hilde has T2 and even T3 possibilities. My point is that history has proven that decks that just have one win don't win. They may do well, but that's only saying whatever you want it to say.

Sol Badguy said:

You can't use an E twice on the same attack with the same card.

What you CAN do, and people don't seem to consider this, is that instead of tossing a 40M36 damage attack, you can toss a couple of 18M14 by using only some of the redux and readying Hilde with Arrogant and Insolent. Not only is it more consistent that way, it's less prone to one-shot negation.

Unless the one-shot negation is called Tag Along lol

edit: Oh, and before we go on, off of Good Hilde has T2/T3 possibilities without caring for Cobra Blow.

Lynx Tail + Dual Wielding + Hilde second E + Healer + Hilde first E = 24 speed low, 22 damage. That can be done turn 2 by playing only a few foundations, maybe 2 and a Healer.

You can also replace Dual Wielding with Amy's/Ass Arts/Shadowar/MMtW+White Magic/MMtW's action/etc. and still do comparable damage at near unblockable speed.

Sadly as easily as you can set that up, any other player can play ONE strifes patronige or American made and be fine. I tend not to like pure aggro for this reason, sure it has very explosive properties, but if it fails your SOL arent you.

I think with Hildie its typically better to win over the course of 2-3 attacks, cause even if one fails, you have fallbacks

Wafflecopter said:

Woooooooooooooooops

guitalex2008 said:

OH YES~.

Protoaddict said:

Carat

Yeah I typically like tossing out an Ichi No tachi or 2 before playing the lynx to make sure I tap down any answers my opponent may have such as Strifes, American made, or Holding Ground. Memories of a Nightmare takes care of jank like chesters, No memories and such and when they aren't playing these things(or don't have them out) it has a reduction effect

I guess I have always just liked the good symbol and I really think that Hilde makes it quite viable(as do some others)

Ichi is great.
Pommel Smash is better, triggers Manifest Destiny

One can easily make a Good Toolbox of sorts featuring Siegfried/Hilde/Nakoruru/Nagase for aggro/oneshot/reversal/walling

Yeah but good has access to Ichi AND Heel Snipe. also Snipe protects your Hilde from Tag Along.

Sol Badguy said:

...

wow, I didn't even THINK about THAT O_O

*rushes to get a playset of Heel Snipe*

Sol Badguy said:

No way to get around Rejection short of discard/"you may not play X"-type things tho, but that's probably okay.

I think I might need to get myself some Heel Snipes sometime, although I still have doubts. I hate/love all these decisions that I need to make these days.