Question One. I noticed that Universe has a speed rating of 2. Excess Void Armor has a speed penalty of 2. Universe with Excess Void Armor now has a speed rating of 0. So at that point its a space station right? Is this just a magical oversight of the game and something a seasoned ship builder would just never do? Not that I did that. No, I never would put Excess Void Armor on a transport ship... Basically, Universe and Excess Void armor can't be a thing, correct?

Question B: Why is the Sunsear Laser Battery (and I assume its larger broadside version) considered the best weapon in the game? Below are Hecutors and Sunsears for comparision as I mounted 2 Hecutors and 4 broadsides with a total cost of 64/26/12 (Power/Space/SP). Similar armament with Sunsears would be 48/32/6. Is it a matter of mount-ability? Is that a word? As the Sunsear Las Battery can go on anything.

Macrocannons, Hecutor Plasma Battery, LC+: Str 3, 1d10+2, Crit 4 Range 11, 8/3/2, if a 1 or 2 is rolled on Crit chart, 2 components are affected.

Macrocannons, Hecutor Plasma Broadside, BC+: Str 5, 1d10+2, Crit 4 Range 11, 12/5/2, if a 1 or 2 is rolled on Crit chart, 2 components are affected.

Macrocannons, Sunsear Las-broadside, LC+: Str 6 1d10+2, Crit 4, Range 9, 9/6/1

Macrocannons, Sunsear Laser Battery: Str 4, 1d10+2, Crit 4, Range 9, 6/4/1

Lastly, is 10 Storm Drop pods on a Universe too many drop pods? Or not enough? Or is it a shining moment of you know you're playing RT when?

Question One. I noticed that Universe has a speed rating of 2. Excess Void Armor has a speed penalty of 2. Universe with Excess Void Armor now has a speed rating of 0. So at that point its a space station right? Is this just a magical oversight of the game and something a seasoned ship builder would just never do? Not that I did that. No, I never would put Excess Void Armor on a transport ship... Basically, Universe and Excess Void armor can't be a thing, correct?

Looks like a perfectly sensible analysis.

Question B: Why is the Sunsear Laser Battery (and I assume its larger broadside version) considered the best weapon in the game? Below are Hecutors and Sunsears for comparision as I mounted 2 Hecutors and 4 broadsides with a total cost of 64/26/12 (Power/Space/SP). Similar armament with Sunsears would be 48/32/6. Is it a matter of mount-ability? Is that a word? As the Sunsear Las Battery can go on anything.

Right, that's why I'll only consider macrocannons.

Now, as I recall (no books with me atm) the Hecutors cost 2 SP each, base. Combined with lower cost in power and mount-ability (word stolen!), it's a really nice weapon.

Better yes, the Sunsears have a Strength of 4 for the base version, as (IIRC) one of only 2 weapon with that combination of characteristics (cost: 1 SP, Strength 4) for something that can be mounted in a dorsal mount for a frigatte. The other one being the Mezoa macrocannon, with about half the range of the Sunsear.

When I first saw it, and compared with the Ryza Plasma battery, I thought the price of the Sunsear was a type, and that it was supposed to be 2 SP instead.

Lastly, is 10 Storm Drop pods on a Universe too many drop pods? Or not enough? Or is it a shining moment of you know you're playing RT when?

Nah, just because I don't personally like drop pods doesn't mean they're bad - if you like 'em, go for 'em!

As for the playing RT-thread, I think it would still require an actual scene, but that should be doable.

Storm troopers in power armor thrown from orbit on a Zaythian city-fortress could take out its bridge while you send the rest of the invasion troopers by landers and shark boats.

Drop pods are excellent if you want to take an objective militarily ignoring ground defenses and anti-air batteries (I understand it travels faster than a missile at the ground's direction).

[spoiler alert] Imagine how useful they would've been on that playthrough of Lure of the Expanse, when the pcs reach Quppa Psi 12.

Storm troopers in power armor thrown from orbit on a Zaythian city-fortress could take out its bridge while you send the rest of the invasion troopers by landers and shark boats.

Drop pods are excellent if you want to take an objective militarily ignoring ground defenses and anti-air batteries (I understand it travels faster than a missile at the ground's direction).

They do, but they don't ignore ground defenses. Even a little turbulence could wreck their day because if the angle of landing is wrong everyone in the pod would get killed. Also the City-Fortresses have constant void shields that they use to defend against their neighbours who turn up the volume too loud with their all-night shelling.

OK, first: do you realise why macrocannons are silly good in RAW?

Right, that's why I'll only consider macrocannons.

Now, as I recall (no books with me atm) the Hecutors cost 2 SP each, base. Combined with lower cost in power and mount-ability (word stolen!), it's a really nice weapon.

Better yes, the Sunsears have a Strength of 4 for the base version, as (IIRC) one of only 2 weapon with that combination of characteristics (cost: 1 SP, Strength 4) for something that can be mounted in a dorsal mount for a frigatte. The other one being the Mezoa macrocannon, with about half the range of the Sunsear.

When I first saw it, and compared with the Ryza Plasma battery, I thought the price of the Sunsear was a type, and that it was supposed to be 2 SP instead.

Lastly, is 10 Storm Drop pods on a Universe too many drop pods? Or not enough? Or is it a shining moment of you know you're playing RT when?

Too many - it's a shite component

Nah, just because I don't personally like drop pods doesn't mean they're bad - if you like 'em, go for 'em!

As for the playing RT-thread, I think it would still require an actual scene, but that should be doable.

Storm troopers in power armor thrown from orbit on a Zaythian city-fortress could take out its bridge while you send the rest of the invasion troopers by landers and shark boats.

Drop pods are excellent if you want to take an objective militarily ignoring ground defenses and anti-air batteries (I understand it travels faster than a missile at the ground's direction).

[spoiler alert] Imagine how useful they would've been on that playthrough of Lure of the Expanse, when the pcs reach Quppa Psi 12.

I've seen the Mathhammer thread and yes Macros are silly good what with a possible +2 damage added to them, one from the Munitorium and one from upgrading it and picking damage. Our Arch Militant captained our Sword Frigate and outfitted her with a pair of Sunsears. Scored 3 kills in her career with us, and assisted in many many more.

As to the drop pods... Steel Rehn baby! Our Universe is our troop carrier and we wanted a way to get a lot of troops down to the ground quickly. 10 is what we had room for after we had stuffed the ship full of everything else useful we could think off. I haven't actually sat down to build it but I think if you did nothing but essentials, a barracks and tons of drop pods you can get somewhere in the neighborhood of 30+ pods. Of course then the ship is only a troop carrier and not a versatile support ship with space piers, repair facilities, black jack, and hookers.

EDIT: Oh God Emperor what have I done? The top quote is from Tenebrae and the second quote is from Sebastian Yorke.

If I remember correctly, a drop pod has the speed to make it from low orbit to the ground in one round of movement.

If I remember correctly, a drop pod has the speed to make it from low orbit to the ground in one round of movement.

Which is why we got them!

Also here is a question. Could the drop pods make it through a void shield? The void shield doesn't stop things like small craft or torpedoes as it is stated they are travelling too slow to trigger the shield. However here is where things will get fuzzy. So a round of space combat is 30 minutes. A VU is set distance of 10,000km. Weapons systems have set ranges that they can fire to. Though half way through this I think I thought of something that might answer itself. Can a torpedo go double its range in 1 turn like say a Sunsear macro?

Because if the torpedo can't then everything works out fine actually. The Sunsear has a range of 9, and can fire out to 18. That's 36 VU in 1 hour or a speed of 6000 kph. The torpedo can only go 10 and can't double its range in 1 turn as far as I know. So let's assume that. That's 20 VU in an hour or a speed of 3333 kph. So really anything that travels in and around 20 VU in 2 rounds ought to concievably penetrate void shields. Surely drop pods, which have to be deployed 1 VU away giving them a speed of 333 kph, can get through void shields.

Again something has struck me midway through writing this. I might have broken space combat assuming the above speeds are correct. I counted no less than 13 weapons that would come in at speeds under 3333 kph. The nastiest of which does d10+6 damage. If we use the above logic, this weapon should be unimpeded by shields. (Dragon's breath lance from LotE 143). Basically any range 5 weapon won't go faster then a torpedo and thus logically should be too slow for the void shields to stop.

What has science done?!

Addenum: Ship weapons have variable power settings on them. How else can you push them to shoot twice their range? Arguably, if you can overcharge the weapons wouldn't you also be able lower their power so they aren't throwing their projectiles as hard/fast? If so, then just lower all their power settings down to be equivalent to range 5 or less and bam! Shields are useless!

Well as far as I know lances travel at the speed of light, the range is just how far they go before losing too much power due to dispersion of the beam to do real damage, likewise macrocannon range is a mix of spent energy ( especially with plasma based weapons), lose of accuracy, and initial travel speed.

I'm also pretty sure that in the book a VU is much farther than 10Km, I think I remember something about the distance to the moon is roughly 1 vu...thou I could be wrong as I don't have a book handy.

Lastly I always thought a massive drop pod compliment would be cool, expensive but cool.

Addenum: Ship weapons have variable power settings on them. How else can you push them to shoot twice their range? Arguably, if you can overcharge the weapons wouldn't you also be able lower their power so they aren't throwing their projectiles as hard/fast? If so, then just lower all their power settings down to be equivalent to range 5 or less and bam! Shields are useless!

I don't know if you're pushing them to shoot at twice their range, so much as beyond twice their range it's impossible to reliably target enough of your firepower to make a difference. Also there's a specific weapon, the Lathe Grav-Culverin Broadside that does allow you to increase range at the cost of reduced damage, implying that other guns don't have this capability.

The Imperium doesn't really have that fine control over its weapons after all. They manually load in shells for Throne's sake.

I would assume that drop pods and assault boats would interact with void shields similarly, but that's just me.

The following assumes that Mathhammer is not in play. The Sunsear is considered the go-to macrocannon because it has a standard damage profile, doesn't take an excess of space, has outstanding range, and has a low-ish SP cost. It is considered superior to the Broadside version, because the extra hits from the Broadside are unlikely to happen- better to save the power/space and devote it towards useful secondaries.

Even when Mathhammer is in play, the Sunsear makes a good component matched with lances with good range and on a fast/manoeuvrable ship. So long as you control the range, the Sunsear can knock down the voids and the Lance can wreck havoc.

Alternatively, in Mathhammer, I like pairing Bombardment Cannon with the high-damage, close-range lances (Mezoa pattern?). They have identical range profiles, so that weapons fit is outstanding for close-range brawling- again, good if you can control the range.

A VU is suggested to be 10 thousand km (10 000 km), but that's not terribly relevant, as they would presumably be launched from just outside the atmosphere.

Only really their speed down the atmosphere would be relevant with regards to ground-to-orbit defences I'd say.

As to the comment about Excess Void armour on a Universe giving 0 speed, yes but only 0 BASE speed. You can still do maneuvers to boost that speed. It just means that your ship is so incredibly bulky that it is barely moving and to move faster than 1 or 2 VU a turn is going to run the chance of burning out the engines. Escorts would be an absolute must for this setup lest it get caught by a wolf pack and torn to shreds.

Ah, to shreds you say!

Cruisers are better invasion platforms than the Universe. They can hold an invasion bridge and a bombardment cannon.

Drop Pods, besides being useful for a fast insertion commando raid, are best used to secure a landing zone for the subsequent drop ships. After all, air fields useful for landing ships are usually going to be well defended with AAA units, and drop pods are designed to make it through the AAA. Thus, you probably don't need more than a single drop pod launching bay.

Drop pod bays are awfully large for what you get. The space they take up to deploy a mere 200 troops could have been used to hold enough Devourers (which need to be statted out somewhere) to land an entire regiment (not an Imperial Guard Regiment which is more like a division, but a normal regiment of 3 battlions plus supporting units).

The Sunsear has been addressed. I'd add that smaller ships often have a hard time finding the needed power for Hecutors. Some have a hard time finding the power for Sunsears. I have Vagabonds kitted out with Mars Macrocannon so they can carry more Achievement Point bonus components.

Using fast burn torpedoes in an archeotech tube will net you about 17 VUs in the first round (going from memory here), so I'd think that Drop Pods ignore shields, too. I'm guessing that Deathclaws do when used in their anti-ship role, but I've never used any against my players (though that does give me some evil thoughts).

A VU is suggested to be 10 thousand km (10 000 km), but that's not terribly relevant, as they would presumably be launched from just outside the atmosphere.

Only really their speed down the atmosphere would be relevant with regards to ground-to-orbit defences I'd say.

Whoops. I'll go back and fix that. I did do the calculations with that figure but have no idea why I wrote 10km.

A VU is suggested to be 10 thousand km (10 000 km), but that's not terribly relevant, as they would presumably be launched from just outside the atmosphere.

Only really their speed down the atmosphere would be relevant with regards to ground-to-orbit defences I'd say.

Whoops. I'll go back and fix that. I did do the calculations with that figure but have no idea why I wrote 10km.

No worries.

As mentioned, it's still irrelevant, btw.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/92193-adapted-valkyries-or-halo-barges-or-devourer-dropship/?hl=devourer

Devourer dropship
Tactical Speed 10m/5 AUs
Cruise Speed 700kph/2VUs
Man. -20
Structure 80
(Armor)
Size 15x an Arvus Lighter
Front 40
Side 35
Rear 30
Crew Pilot, Co-Pilot, 6 Tech-Priests, 1 Enginseer, 2 Gunners
Carrying Capacity 500 humans + 50 Leman Rus Tanks/Chimeras (or 1000 humans total)
Availability Extremely rare
Special Rules Spacecraft, Reinforced Hull

I'd give 1 for each Barracks component IF the ship is equipped with an Invasion Bridge.
Or else 1 Devourer should take the space of a full Fury/Shark/Starhawk squadron in a (carrier) launch bay.

Nice job. Still, let me play the devil's advocate and question the stats. Your hard work deserves a fair evaluation.

The tactical speed of a Hephaestus Ore Carrier is 5. A Rhino's is 15. Can something that moves 10 even fly? I like your cruise speeds. It should be fast enough to seem like an aircraft, but slow enough to rationalize the invention of Thunderhawks and other landing craft smaller than the Devourer.

The maneuverability of a Halo Barge is -20. This baby could probably carry a couple Halo Barges. At the same time, you don't want something a competent pilot crashes in a light breeze.

Size. Yeah. I don't think the books go over Massive, and everything bigger than a Rhino is massive. So, Massive.

I'm good with your armor, crew, availability, and special rules. Do you really think it only carries a battalion? I'm looking at the scale there and it strikes me it would carry several times as many people as a wide-bodied jet on a single level, and it has two levels. I'm thinking at least 3,000. Then again, maybe it carries a battalion and all its supporting units.

And I'm really not sure about the number in a squadron. You have suggested 1. I feel there should be more, but the things is so big...

I might point out that in fluff they require a unique launch bay carried by a Cetaceus class troop transport that basically consists of a rack of these exposed to space with no armor or covering.

Cetaceus Launch Bay

Space 5, Power 5

Allows the ship to transport 27 Devourer class drop ships.

Exposed: This launch bay counts as an Exposed component

Too Big to Hide: Any successful attempt to preform a Focused Augery automatically reveals this componenet

Massive: Reduce the ship's base speed by 1 and Manuverablity by 10

Structural limitations: This componenet replaces any cargo bays that a ship may be equipped with.

Thanks for that update Baronlveagh. Any idea how many troops one of these Cetaceous ships carries? I would think that there's no need to be able to put down its entire complement in a single lift, and 27 Devourers can land an awful lot of troops in a single lift. These ships would be good for third and fourth wave units, after the beach head is more secure. Yeah, I know it's armed, but you just wouldn't want to risk something this valuable in heavy fire.

I'm not familiar with lots of the novels but it's not like the average pulp fiction writer is a tactician. I'd think that the first wave would consist of drop pods near the AAA emplacements, followed closely by small landers, such as Valkyries, with close air support. Once the landing zone was secure, the Devourers would start landing troops. The few novels I've read seem to have many, many transports in an invasion fleet (which is in line with the WWI/WWII naval feeling of BFG), so they could each launch waves in succession and keep the landing zone quite busy. There is no need for a single transport to empty its complement in a single lift.

Feel free to correct my misperceptions.

Thanks for that update Baronlveagh. Any idea how many troops one of these Cetaceous ships carries? I would think that there's no need to be able to put down its entire complement in a single lift, and 27 Devourers can land an awful lot of troops in a single lift. These ships would be good for third and fourth wave units, after the beach head is more secure. Yeah, I know it's armed, but you just wouldn't want to risk something this valuable in heavy fire.

I'm not familiar with lots of the novels but it's not like the average pulp fiction writer is a tactician. I'd think that the first wave would consist of drop pods near the AAA emplacements, followed closely by small landers, such as Valkyries, with close air support. Once the landing zone was secure, the Devourers would start landing troops. The few novels I've read seem to have many, many transports in an invasion fleet (which is in line with the WWI/WWII naval feeling of BFG), so they could each launch waves in succession and keep the landing zone quite busy. There is no need for a single transport to empty its complement in a single lift.

Feel free to correct my misperceptions.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cetaceus_Class_Transport

It carries a single regiment, more or less, but since Regiment size in IG is somewhat fluid....

Each drop ship carries a company sized detatchment (this is confirmed inseveral sources, so you're looking at 80-250 men +gear like chimeras, etc). It should be noted that most sources describe dropships that are smaller and carry the same load, so how much is storage on the drop ship is a good question, since the IG troops never leave the dropship following embarking. Some sources state that a modified halo barge can carry a similar number of troops.

In theory, before a full scale landing, the beachhead would be secured by astartes and orbital fire. The drop ships lascannons are useful as defensive weapons against other airborn threats, as air superiority may be in doubt.

Pulling numbers out of my butt, I'd say allow a group of 14 or 15 to qualify as a "squadron" for support small craft purposes. Note that the "open bay" of the Cetaceus matches the Lathe-pattern open bay in description, and that every transport is allowed one landing bay. This looks like a hold landing bay to me, or possibly a fore-mounted Lathe bay as an exception to normal rules- alternatively, assume three or four Lathe launch bays and reduce squadron size accordingly- Lexicanum says they come with other support craft, so the fighter and bomber squadrons may be reduced in favor of the Minotaur tugs and whatnot.

Each one holds a "regiment," vague as that is. From the size (and art, terrible as it is), I'd assume that each one can carry 30-50 Leman Russes/Chimerae and 500 troops.

Of course, I don't expect my interpretation to blend with anyone else.

Relevant: Rather than trying to come up with hard numbers in this game (an exercise in futility, in my opinion) I assume that every Barracks comes with an eight point Only War regiment. Each Munitorium improves all armoured or heavy regiments aboard that ship by one point. Each Drop Pod bay improves each drop-pod insertable regiment aboard by one point. Each 50 acheivement points or fraction thereof of cargo hold space provides 1 point to distribute amongst the regiments. Each unit of Aeronautic assault boats taken as a support craft point improves any unit transportable by Valkyries or similar craft aboard that ship by one point.

Each barracks component comes with unarmed landing craft sufficient to offload the troops within a 10 hour timeframe. It's a big component- it should come with that.

Support ships with hold space may load their holds with equipment, allowing them to "spend" their regimental points to support ships throughout the fleet.

Each quality upgrade to a barracks provides one bonus regimental point to its regiment, in addition to the normal benefits of upgrading quality.

Two cruisers for the initial assault plus a Star Galleon or two (or a Mass Conveyor!) with follow on forces? Yes, please.

This system is abstract, but allows heavy armoured regiments, artillery regiments, light infantry regiments and so on to be modeled fairly well.

I, too, prefer the abstract over the concrete, though numbers of craft are usually exempt from that since they are few, and they do get shot down or shot up. I do like my players to have an idea of what the designations can deploy.

I like your idea of a landing craft of some sort coming with each barracks. That just makes sense. And, the Lathe Landing Bay in a prow mounted position seems inevitable since every Space Marine strike cruiser appears to mount one. Still, since fluff has transports in a troop transport mode the Hold Landing Bay is also a must, though I don't recall seeing any that were prow mounted (not that I'm a photo hound). A Hold Landing Bay (Cetaceous Landing Bay?) can hold 120 Furies or 60 Starhawks so I guess 10-20 Devourers isn't out of the question. Gods, that seems excessive. Even minimally, that would mean that a militray transport could put 5-10k troops AND 500-1000 vehicles on the ground in a single lift. AND, military transports might very well have more than a single barracks component.

The regiment designation has always thrown a certain group of people into confusion and I have to wonder if that isn't we Americans. To us, a regiment is almost always a subunit of a division, until very recent times when we've built combat brigades around them. In Britain, a regiment is the core unit, around which brigades and divisions are built. Those regiments were traditionally composed of 2 battalions, of which one was active and the other a recruiting cadre. Hence, these undersized British regiments (most Continental armies had regiments numbering 700-1000) are really oversized battalions (usually about 500 men each). All of that changed considerably in the world wars, for all nations. Regiments grew to about 3000 men each.

In 40k, Imperial Regiments are the core unit, though often the size of divisions, which just tells me that there are other lower-tiered designations, though I'm only familiar with 40k IG companies and smaller. Just to give some ideas, though, our group established some of the following numbers:

An armored "field regiment" consists of about 100 tanks.

A mechanized infantry "field regiment" consists of about 100 APCs and their passengers.

An artillery "field regiment" consists of 30-50 pieces, their crews, and support vehicles.

Note that a field regiment is a fighting unit, NOT an IG organizational regiment.

Keep in mind that these formations aren't decided by their combat ability, but their logistical consumption. Any number of armored and mechanized units might be in only a single engagement at a time, while the supporting artillery might be engaged in all of those same fights simultaneously, throwing shells in support of all of them. I guess my next question would be, "How much supplies does a basic military transport carry?" How long is that one ship supposed to keep its troops in a campaign? Certainly, the little fluff I've read has follow-on convoys bringing more ammunition and such up.

I'm sorry if logistics bores most people, but Rogue Traders deal with this very thing and should have staffs that are quite expert at it. I remember statting medieval armies back in the D&D days and we figured 2500 infantry would form a road column a mile long, followed by a baggage train a 1/2 mile long, not including such things as stragglers and "meat on the hoof." And for our European cousins out there, a mile is 1.6 kms.

I'd have to dig out some old manuals, but by memory I recall that infantry divisionsof approx. 10k men required 2 tons of supplies per day and mechanized divisions 3 tons (in WWII), and that went up in combat conditions. That's a lot of support ships. I'll take a stab in the dark and guess that every dedicated transport needs another supply ship just to keep the troops fighting for 3 months.

And thanks, Annaamarth, for your Only War conversions. I'll have the book in a couple more days and I look forward to employing your points suggestions to it.

Well, I'll stop for now. I happen to like logistics, but I know that it puts most people to sleep. For those of you interested, I recommend the book, Feeding Mars .

Professionals study logistics.

Depends on hold space. I assume that each 25 endeavour points of hold space can maintain one regiment for 1 month, and each barracks has stores on its own for another month.

A Cruiser with an Invasion Bridge, 2x Barracks and a Compartmentalised Cargo Hold can maintain two regiments on independent combat operations for three months. Add a Munitorium, Bombardment Cannons and maybe a hangar bay full of aeronautica, and you have a planetary beachhead ship. (Those stats pulled from nowhere, not sure if such a build is possible- seems likely though).

That is the old saw, "Professionals study logistics, amateurs tactics."

25 AP for 1 Regt. for 1 Mo.? I like that. It's nice, easy, and structured. And yes, it looks like a legal build. As I said in my first post on this thread, cruisers make for awesome invasion platforms. Add in an invasion bridge and assault scanners and you've pretty well topped that baby out.

Still, for sustained or massive invasions you'll need more than 10k troops, which is where those dedicated military transports come in. The cruiser can provide the direct support, but you might need more troops. And this is where that Universe comes in. Yeah, I'd probably use multiple Vagabonds, but there's nothing wrong with the Universe, other than a lot of eggs in a single basket.

While multiple Vagabonds does spread the risk out some, I'd imagine that any massive invasion force would have the resources to protect a huge dedicated troop carrier like an Universe. While I've seen the thread on the forums have come to an agreement that a Barracks holds 1 regiment of troops, my group thought that was far far too small.

Instead our GM has roomed that a Barracks can contain up to the crew population on a ship. This is based on the fact that Voidsmen Quarters and Barracks are the same size (LC+ at least) and you aren't required to have multiple sets of quarters for the crew. In the case of the Universe, that's 60k men. Throw in the passenger room of up to 500k more and 1 Universe can bring a lot of men to one place.

The issue then becomes deployment but this thread seems to have covered that in some depth. And is admittedly much more sane then my billion drop pod idea.