And I liked your post because you're always thinking outside the box and I think that's awesome.

I don't like the box. The box was mean to me. One day I will have my revenge.

What box?

He doesn't like to talk about it; it was a bad experience. Ironically, his revenge will probably come in the form of a large, white, flying space-box.

I rather like this list.

Rexler Brath, Predator (40)

Black Squadron Pilot, Predator, Stealth Device (20) x 3

or you could drop one BSP for Howlrunner with Swarm Tactics.

That would be three PS8 shooters for a slight drop in firepower.

Apex Predator Matador:

Rexler Brath + Predator + HLC +SD

2x BSP + Predator

Backstabber

Because I enjoy sinking 50 points on a small base ship, no other reason.

See, I'd go with PTL on Rexler. That way you can get TL and Focus, then only modify the dice with TL and use the focus to make your opponent cry.

Yeah, but Defenders really hate having stress.

Destroyed an ABXY list with RedAlpha version.

Apex Predators No Swet!

Yorr+Vader

Mauler+ predator

Backstabber

BSP+ predator x2

PS 7,6,4,4,4

An "alpha" strike of 4 with a reroll, 4, 3 with reroll, 3 with reroll, 4 with an autocrit...they could all have focus and 2 of em coulda kturned to do it. Not sure that Yorr is needed but I've see an aweful lot of flechette torps lately and what would you do with the extra 3 pts? Stealth up stabby? Tactician the shuttle?

what about:

Bounty hunter

3XBSP+predator

Backstabber

dont have to fly in a swarm. it's, as they say in th eimmortal movie Top Gun, a fur ball

That's exactly where I think they'll shine... 2-3 at a time seasoned into something. BH + swarm is always a thing... that there is a really scary BH+ 4 swarm WITH rerolls.

I could see taking maybe one , but if I'm going to spend over 16 points on a couple of TIE fighters, I'd rather just have Backstabber, Dark Curse, and Mauler Mithel. It just seems like bad math, no matter which way you slice it.

I'd much rather play something like this:

33 Bounty Hunter x2

16 Backstabber

14 Black Squadron Pilot

3 Outmaneuver

Two Firesprays accompanied by two ships that excel in a flanking role (or roll, for that matter).

That sounds fun too.

-Yes Backstabber. +2ps and an extra dice for 1pt less is hard to beat. There is a reason he's in most Imperial lists and pretty much every swarm.

-Maybe Mauler. +3ps and an extra dice at range 1 only for same cost is a toss up.

-Dark Curse? +2 PS and a defensive ability vs. a reroll to me is a no.

What you're saying is the "swarm" already has so many nice ships that do similar things. You can now just leave Howlrunner out of the PS swarm and still get your rerolls on all but 2 of the ships... which is about what you were getting before with Howlrunner not being able to use her own ability and the flanker being out of range. Now you happen to have a Blocker and PS 7,6,4,4,4,1 destroys before shots are fired or are at least simultaneous.

Mauler + Pred

Backstabber

Black + Pred x3

AP

Again, probably not going to replace the Howlswarm anytime soon... but it could be a moderately competitive subtype.

That's not exactly what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that at 2-3 BSPs + Predator, you have better options. I don't think you're properly weighing the value of the named pilots above. When a ship is as fragile as a normal TIE fighter, every point of PS counts, and Dark Curse effectively denies your opponent an action against him. Move last, shoot first, survive longer and throw more red dice. That's the ultimate goal of any list, and the named TIEs do it better. At 4+ BSPs + Predator, you've already lost an entire ship.

Oh I'm with you on the named ties... About half of my imperial lists start with Backstabber + NB and 69 other points. I'm just happy that every now and then when I find myself at 15-18 points left I have another option that could be similarly effective. As discussed above... the swarm isn't where this is at but we keep trying to change it anyway (because it's largely been unchanged since wave 1).

A good named tie swarm already had to go down 1 ship, but at least 6 likely shoot first [enough] while most 7-8 swarms lose a ship or 2 before they even get to fire... you're not losing a whole ship, you're just subbing out your usual suspects for something new and surprisingly effective.

I also find 1 BSP + Pred and 1BSP+ wingman to be great flanker and support pieces for interceptors and shuttles and BH's.

As for the list I posted above, I would be tempted to replace one of the Bounty Hunters with a Doomshuttle, giving me ten more points to play around with. That would make for one hell of a three-pronged attack.

As for the list I posted above, I would be tempted to replace one of the Bounty Hunters with a Doomshuttle, giving me ten more points to play around with. That would make for one hell of a three-pronged attack.

Tiger Shark Apex Predators

Shuttle + FCS + Gunner + Vader

BSP + Predatorx2

BSP + Wingman

Backstabber

Just took on Porkins, Tarn, Garvin, Bandit and it came down to Porkins at 2hp vs. a full predator BSP. BSP killed Porkins with 1 hp left! Great match.

rnd 1:

Approach...shuttle left bottom approaching first astroid and then boosting past it. Ties follow. Xwings slowroll top right.

rnd 2:

x's turn all guns toward swarm. Stabber slips around an asteroid (no shot but will have stabbieness next round). Shuttle takes every shot and evades nothing... left with 1 hp after it's all said and done... ouch. 3 BSP's bring tarn down to 1hp. Shuttle elects to fire at Garven to stress him and crit him with the classic wiff, , FCS, Gunner, 3 hits... no evades... go ahead and free crit him to kill my own shuttle but Garven is toast.

Rnd 3:

Furball. Porkins takes stabber to one. Stabber finishes off Garven. Tarn survives and runs like hell.

Rnd 4:

Positioning. Porkins finishes off stabber. BSPs put some damage on Porkins.

Rnd 5: Tarn finally goes down on a long shot. Porkins vs. 2 BSPs at end.

Rnd 6: Porkins fires first... down to 1:1... takes damage... regens sheild

rnd 7: positioning no shots

Rnd 8: porkins shot only... misses

Rnd 9: porkins hits but only gets 2 in... BSP finishes him off.

I like this list... a lot. I think EU is better than Vader here though.

Tigershark Apex just frenzied all over XXBB. Rolls were a bit lopsided in this one... Rematch to follow.

Tigershark got taken down by a squid!

Sneaky Ibi list:

Ibi+ jammer + PTL + APT

Biggs

Tala + Concussion

Bandit + Cluster

Bad news for my hipposhuttle bus; 2/3 it has gone down only firing a single shot. That much pain is going to take anything down though. Couldn't kill biggs fast enough. Still came down to Ibi at full vs. 1 uninjured BSP with Pred and one with wingman with 2 hits on it, one of which was the Weapons Malfunction crit. Was able to use the BSPs to block ibi and reduce shots... a few lucky rolls later (including predator rerolls turning things into 3 hits and then her rolling four hits vs. my 3 green + and evade and walking away!). Chipped her down to 1hp but when you're only firing 1 red and she gets focuses and rerolls that just wasn't gonna happen.

2-1... must learn to protect the shark... maybe it's more of a whale shark. Gunner Tactitian is fun though... do love that.

You're supposed to slow roll with the shuttle, and flank with the TIEs. Your opponent is then forced to either focus all his attention on the shuttle while he takes a pounding from behind (where, again, Outmaneuver would probably be a lot better), or turn his attention toward the TIEs while the shuttle and Vader similarly go to town. Either way your opponent is going to expose a vulnerability somewhere, at which point you take complete advantage of the situation. I'd still prefer to take a Firespray with Recon Spec over those gratuitous shuttle upgrades and a third or fourth TIE, thereby adding another valuable element to your list - the ability to kite.

Remember, slow roll your shuttle. Make liberal use of the 0 and 1 maneuvers, and if your opponent is stupid enough to come after it anyways, bite him in the ass.

Ya... been playing vader shuttle too much lately. Would have mattered last game... this one: APT and Concussion make short work of the shuttle and not much you can do about it with biggs hanging around.

I prefer Firesprays myself most of the time but the lambda keeps calling and makes me a better overall pilot so gotta keep trying every now and then.

BH + gunner (or recon +seismic)

BSP + predator x2

Backstabber

AP

Solid with lots of threats.

I've thought about the pretty simple version:

BSP + Predator (x4)

Backstabber

Dark Curse

Now nothing is required to fly together. It probably is worse of than BSP + VI (x3) and Howlrunner version of the high PS swarm.

How about this:

38 Kath Scarlet

6 Adv. Proton Torpedo

3 Push the Limit

3 Recon Specialist

0 Slave-1

16 Backstabber

14 Black Squadron Pilot

3 Outmaneuver

14 Black Squadron Pilot

3 Outmaneuver

How about this:

38 Kath Scarlet

6 Adv. Proton Torpedo

3 Push the Limit

3 Recon Specialist

0 Slave-1

16 Backstabber

14 Black Squadron Pilot

3 Outmaneuver

14 Black Squadron Pilot

3 Outmaneuver

This I like... I would take predator over outmaneuver on the the BSP's all day though. Kath is an excellent if expensive APT delivery system and double focus/evade to end the game is hard to beat.

Here I thought the killer APT delivery system involves Deadeye (fire using Focus instead of TL) and Recon Specialist. Someone gets in the line of fire and BOOM!

Need to agree that Predator is almost certainly better than Outmaneuver. It's less conditional and although the maximum benefit may less the average benefit probably favors Predator.

Well, Black Squadron Pilot is almost certainly the best fit for Outmaneuver. It's the cheapest generic ship with an EPT, and has the single best action for getting out of firing arcs - barrel roll. Compare that to the next two cheapest, the Green Squadron Pilot, which doesn't have barrel roll, and Saber Squadron Pilot, where there are far better options, not the least of which is Push the Limit.

That having been said, Outmaneuver also makes up for one of the TIEs biggest weaknesses, that being two red dice versus three or more greens. Have you ever flown TIEs against Interceptors? It's downright miserable even with the best of luck, especially when they're packing Push the Limit and tanking up with focus + evade every turn. TIEs aren't bad ships, but to get the most out of a ship with only two red dice you need a lot of them, hence the swarm. There's a reason why you don't see many A-Wings being flown competitively, and even less TIE Advanced. The simple fact of the matter is that even when modified, two red dice sucks.

Now there's certainly nothing wrong with Predator, but I think you're better off saving it for ships with three reds. It's a similar principle to Flight Instructor, which sees little enough play not only because it affects green dice (and who cares about those?), but because two out of three of the large ships only throw one green die anyways. The more dice you throw, regardless of their color, the more value you get out of re-rolls. It's simple math. The reason Howlrunner is amazing, apart from the obvious, is because the dice pool she's modifying typically ranges anywhere from 6-10 reds. You're obviously not getting those kind of numbers with a pair of BSPs, and, as has already been pointed out, you'd be silly to take four or more anyways.

Well, Black Squadron Pilot is almost certainly the best fit for Outmaneuver. It's the cheapest generic ship with an EPT, and has the single best action for getting out of firing arcs - barrel roll. Compare that to the next two cheapest, the Green Squadron Pilot, which doesn't have barrel roll, and Saber Squadron Pilot, where there are far better options, not the least of which is Push the Limit.

That having been said, Outmaneuver also makes up for one of the TIEs biggest weaknesses, that being two red dice versus three or more greens. Have you ever flown TIEs against Interceptors? It's downright miserable even with the best of luck, especially when they're packing Push the Limit and tanking up with focus + evade every turn. TIEs aren't bad ships, but to get the most out of a ship with only two red dice you need a lot of them, hence the swarm. There's a reason why you don't see many A-Wings being flown competitively, and even less TIE Advanced. The simple fact of the matter is that even when modified, two red dice sucks.

Now there's certainly nothing wrong with Predator, but I think you're better off saving it for ships with three reds. It's a similar principle to Flight Instructor, which sees little enough play not only because it affects green dice (and who cares about those?), but because two out of three of the large ships only throw one green die anyways. The more dice you throw, regardless of their color, the more value you get out of re-rolls. It's simple math. The reason Howlrunner is amazing, apart from the obvious, is because the dice pool she's modifying typically ranges anywhere from 6-10 reds. You're obviously not getting those kind of numbers with a pair of BSPs, and, as has already been pointed out, you'd be silly to take four or more anyways.

A/E-Wings, Interceptors, Ties, and Phantoms are all great at avoiding outmanuever. Cutting them to 2 agility just isn't as good as knowing you'll get 2 hits almost every attack.

Outmanuever adds more damage yes. But flying to use it effectively is another matter. Outmanuever is best on A-Wings and Interceptors.(and Phantoms, but they need Vet Instincts much much much more.)

I see the logic of reducing dice but that would require a 3 AG ship to get outmanuevered. Awings, interceptors, phantoms, and defenders are going to put you in thier arc far more often than you slipping out of theirs. They still roll 2 evades or some combo of evades and focus and you still did nothing to them. This says nothing about them being at 4-6 dice with cloaks, objects, stealth device, or at range 3.

Predator is just easy mode. Roll attacks reroll dice. Consistency is the name of the game. Awings will rock both and beat face. BSP's can choose 1. Predator is often the better choice.

Few enough people use the named A-Wings, and Green Squadron Pilot has a lower PS than Black Squadron Pilot. Royal Guard Pilot may have a higher PS, but Saber Squadron Pilot ties, so that comes down to initiative. I've been told that KineticOperator is one of the better players on this forum, and this is what he had to say about Predator:

As for Predator, I find that with a 2 dice shot it is not very effective. Just focus and shoot, and take what damage he provides.