Odd, because I've seen quite a few 3 ship builds win.

I'm seeing a lot of talk about "reliable" this and "efficient" that. For those who are saying the Defender isn't reliable, let me lay out a hypothetical scenario.

You have your Defender jousting an X-Wing. Let's say the Defender was looking to get very aggressive and took a focus action. So did the X-Wing (or TL'd, whatever).

The X-wing fires and after modification gets 3 hits and a crit. The Defender completely wiffs his evade roll. And guess what? Even if he took Direct Hit! as his critical hit, he still lives. If he rolled even one evade result, or had to burn through his Focus to stop even one damage, not only did he live but he didn't even let the critical hit touch his hull. Now please, tell me a small base Imperial ship that can live through that sort of bad luck. That's "reliable" for you right there.

Oh and guess what? After this round, the Defender can kiogran and take an action to press the attack, and the X-wing will likely be in his arc no matter what. He could kio, but would be stressed and therefor at a disadvantage. This situation doesn't even take into account pilot skill, or upgrades, or EPTs. If the Defender had an Ion cannon, that X-wing might never be able to turn into the fight again. Not only is the Defender the only small Imperial ship to carry Ion cannons, but it's also the only one that could out-stall a slowly tracking ship (either because of their 1 maneuvers that are innate or from being ion'd) because the Defender can keep fishtailing with it's 1 banks.

yes, and now your defender that costs 31 points gets to "bully" an Xwing that costs 21 points. That Xwing came so close to killing your TIEdef as well.


if we simply shifted upwards a little, say to 50 points, where you have 1 TIE + 1 TIEdef vs 2 Xwings, I think it becomes a little more obvious what would happen should 2 Xwings decide to dump everything into 1TIEdef

Also, for people talking about how it compares to other ships and existing strategies:

Uh, hello? Have you been paying attention? FFG is sick of the TIE Swarm (™) garbage. IF you want to say "well a swarm maneuvers better and has more output overall" then go right ahead. And when Blount and a paltry band of Bandits sweep you into the bin, maybe then you'll understand the point of the Defender. It's meant to be something new, something Imperial slanting players aren't used to yet. And some of what people might say here could be right: maybe it doesn't compare overly well to a B-Wing or what have you. But you know what it's going to be great against? E-Wings and Headhunters. Also known as "those ships and pilots specifically engineered to kill everything you're used to doing so far".

yes, and now your defender that costs 31 points gets to "bully" an Xwing that costs 21 points. That Xwing came so close to killing your TIEdef as well.

if we simply shifted upwards a little, say to 50 points, where you have 1 TIE + 1 TIEdef vs 2 Xwings, I think it becomes a little more obvious what would happen should 2 Xwings decide to dump everything into 1TIEdef

Yes, but that was also an "absolute worst luck" scenario. And if someone's going to call a ship worthless because of that then they're just wrong. And just a point, yes even if they do dump all their effort into it, they both still had to fire on it and leave the others untouched. That's more than can be said of any other small ships, just like i mentioned.

And it looks so cool!

And it looks so cool!

EXACTLY!

And it looks so cool!

EXACTLY!

Reliable means that good luck or bad, I can reasonably predict how long it will live and formulate that into my game plan. Defenders don't have that. No 3 agility ship does. But Ties and A-wings(post Chaardan) are cheap enough where that's ok.

And again, there are 3 ship lists that work.

3 BH works because 30 damage is a lot to dish out.

3 X builds with enough synergy can do well, but they aren't as good as most tournament builds, and the only reason they might be getting better is Phantoms.

But in order to run a 3 Defender build you're having PS1 or 3 leaving you just as stuck against Phantoms as XXBB except you have less board coverage and less attack dice leaving you in more trouble.

These comparisons are important. The Defender is going to struggle to find its niche. Its cost is prohibitive and it doesn't play well with others.

What it does against individual fighters is of little consequence, because again, that's endgame. The best thing the defender has is that like the A-wing or Advanced, it's got low offense for its points and will be an annoying nut to crack. But that hasn't made either of those ships good.

Maybe its gimmick will work. But personally I think it's pretty obvious the Defender was designed for Epic Play. Its named pilots get better, its defenses matter more, and it will benefit from a proper support ship like no other.

MajorJuggler: I used a dice iterator put together by one of my league mates, here. http://www.xwingdice.com/

The theoretical assumptions I made were based on the fact that the Defender gains a greater damage increase from offensive focus than he gains defensive value from focus, especially when attacked with 2 dice. This is generally true, regardless. The A-Wings on the other hand gain greater value from defensive focus. So, I calculated the Defender attack using focus against an A-Wing defense with focus. Then the return fire was one A-Wing focused and one A-Wing unfocused (because he spent it on defense) against the Defender unfocused (because he spent it on offense).

Thanks, got it. It's a good starting point. To get accurate numbers however you need to calculate the weighted average of both ships having their focus available for both actions. The probability of having focus after attack is obviously trivial. Unfortunately the dice results page doesn't give the probability of the defender still having a focus available for defense after being attacked. The scripts I wrote calculate the probability of the defender still having focus (it returns a 2 by N+1 matrix, where N is the number of attack dice), and I can directly calculate the 2 dimensional PDF (damage and defender focus remaining) resulting from multiple ships attacking one ship. I'll try to run the numbers when I get home tonight.

Attacking order within the same PS actually matters quite a bit. The Defender wants to attack last so it can selectively fire at an A-wing without focus. Using a doctrine of "always use focus when it helps you" should still be optimal even if the Defender has to use its focus on defense before it can return fire.

Lastly, you should consider more than just range 2 attacks. The damage ratios should be calculated at range 1 and range 3, and the final damage ratio should be some weighted average of the three ranges.

On a different note, from your game play experience, how often do you find yourself getting prevented from K-turning? It is almost trivially easy to prevent a PS1 Defender from K-turning: you fly to exactly where it is on the previous turn.

I've honestly felt it looked dumb since I was 10 and got the first vehicles and vessels guide...

It does look a bit like the Nuclear symbol, and not in a good way.

Reliable means that good luck or bad, I can reasonably predict how long it will live and formulate that into my game plan. Defenders don't have that. No 3 agility ship does. But Ties and A-wings(post Chaardan) are cheap enough where that's ok.

I disagree on the reliability front for the Defender. 6 base HP is enough that the outliers of rolling 3 agility are going to regress to the mean more often, so you can count on dodging more reliably than the smaller cousins. If folks actually played the Advanced much, we'd not be having this argument. The Defender is less survivable than the Firespray-31, but more survivable than the Outer Rim Smuggler.

And again, there are 3 ship lists that work.

3 BH works because 30 damage is a lot to dish out.

3 X builds with enough synergy can do well, but they aren't as good as most tournament builds, and the only reason they might be getting better is Phantoms.

But in order to run a 3 Defender build you're having PS1 or 3 leaving you just as stuck against Phantoms as XXBB except you have less board coverage and less attack dice leaving you in more trouble.

Alternatively, it is almost as survivable as a Bounty Hunter, equally offensive, and far more nimble in the Asteroid Thicket. However, that isn't to say that your analysis is wrong. I think it needs more on-the-table testing, 'cause it's hard to theorize around the weird-as-hell unique dial.

What it does against individual fighters is of little consequence, because again, that's endgame.

And mid-game. And early game.

The best thing the defender has is that like the A-wing or Advanced, it's got low offense for its points...

The Defender has 3 attack dice, with Focus and Target Lock options, and the ability to take up a Cannon or Missiles, and the most unique maneuver wheel in the game, allowing for extremely chaotic dog-fights. Do you want me to duct-tape a hand-grenade to it's base?

... and will be an annoying nut to crack. But that hasn't made either of those ships good.

A-Wing's actually pretty good, once you use the Chaardan Refit. Keeping one or two in your fleet tends to shift you to a favorable end-game; just one that takes longer than Tournaments allow.

Maybe its gimmick will work. But personally I think it's pretty obvious the Defender was designed for Epic Play. Its named pilots get better, its defenses matter more, and it will benefit from a proper support ship like no other.

Ship uncomfortably expensive for the size of your fleet? Increase the size of your fleet! Brilliant!

It's still a hell of a force to be reckoned with in the 100 point games. Its named pilots both have great "Build around me" abilities, and even the Delta is a big ball of chaos.

For me, the Defender is X-Wing's first Berzerker. It's big, beefy, high-damage, crazy-as-hell, and takes a special kind of person to appreciate.

The White Koiogran gives the Defender (and Porkins, admittedly) the ability to have a dipositional stop, declaring to all of the world that "I am going to be bouncing between these two spots until I decide not to, and if I have an Ion Cannon, you're staying between 'em."

The fact that it has all of the turns and banks, on top of having a barrel-roll action, means it has incredible ability to chase, or otherwise get into un-thought-of shooting lanes.

Yes, typically the Defender will tend more towards the mean. But I've lost two Interceptors to back to back attacks before. Over the course of a long tournament that's going to happen more and more. Sure, it might only be 1 game out of 6, but that 1 game costs me the tournament when 1/3 of my fleet is gone on turn one of combat without getting to fire, and I still have two ships firing at me to worry about. That's where reliability comes in. High agility is an illusion, a feeling of safety that can all too easily vanish.

As to what I want from the Defender. Let's look at it this way.

It pays 10 points per point of attack.

An A-wing pays 7.5(with Chaardan), and an Advanced pays 10.5. An X-wing pays 7. A B-Wing, 7.333

With a HLC the defender is paying 9.25. That's a pretty high number. The highest small ship cost per point of attack in the game.

Now, part of this is that I plan based on Murphy's law. An A-wing will take 4 hits(5 if I take an evade action). An X-wing will take 5. A Defender will take 6. A B-wing will take 8. I can't bank on agility. It's bad planning. And that makes the Defender bad. It's defense is its strength, but I can't afford to trust it.

Yes, typically the Defender will tend more towards the mean. But I've lost two Interceptors to back to back attacks before. Over the course of a long tournament that's going to happen more and more. Sure, it might only be 1 game out of 6, but that 1 game costs me the tournament when 1/3 of my fleet is gone on turn one of combat without getting to fire, and I still have two ships firing at me to worry about. That's where reliability comes in. High agility is an illusion, a feeling of safety that can all too easily vanish.

As to what I want from the Defender. Let's look at it this way.

It pays 10 points per point of attack.

An A-wing pays 7.5(with Chaardan), and an Advanced pays 10.5. An X-wing pays 7. A B-Wing, 7.333

With a HLC the defender is paying 9.25. That's a pretty high number. The highest small ship cost per point of attack in the game.

Now, part of this is that I plan based on Murphy's law. An A-wing will take 4 hits(5 if I take an evade action). An X-wing will take 5. A Defender will take 6. A B-wing will take 8. I can't bank on agility. It's bad planning. And that makes the Defender bad. It's defense is its strength, but I can't afford to trust it.

I mean, I'm not saying anything new here, but saying you can't trust 3 Agility/6 hp is odd, since it's more trustworthy than any other ship in its class.

Yeah, but it costs more than any ship in its class. By a lot. And has the second worst offense based on cost. If it helps, I don't much trust the E-wing either.

So, since the Defender and the Firespray are so close in price, let's now, like many other people compare the two bit for bit. In fact, lets compare a bounty hunter to a Onyx Squadron pilot since they have the same PS and are both generics

Price: The Onyx Squadron pilot costs 32 points, one less than the bounty hunter.

Advantage: Defender (slight)

Upgrade bar: Both have missiles and cannon slots, which are both strong. The bounty hunter can also take the very powerful crew upgrade, the seldom used bombs, and even more rarely used Slave 1 title. The Onyx may be able to take the elite slot, but it is not confirmed either way.

Advantage: Firespray (amount varies from slight to extreme based on is the Defender can take the elite slot)

Firepower: Both have primary weapon value of 3, but only the Firespray can fire out of it's rear

Advantage: Firespray

Manoeuvrability: Both dials are solid. The Firespray's is relatively typical, while the Defender can make every turn, with some red, has more straight greens but no green turns, and a white K-turn. Could go either way, but personally (feel free to disagree) I feel as if the Defender has the better dial, but only slightly. However, its main advantage comes from it having a small base, allowing it to navigate asteroids much easier and allows it to use its dial to its full poential

Advantage: Defender

Action bar: Both can target lock and focus. The firespray can evade, which is rarely if ever used, and the Defender can barrel roll, which is great for utility purposes.

Advantage: Defender (slight)

Staying power: The Firespray has one more shield and three more hull. The Defender has one more green die.

Advantage: Firespray

As you can see, its pretty close between the two. I have avoided talking about named pilot abilities as those are much harder to quantify without seeing the named Defenders in action.

Some notes:

• It has been confirmed that the PS3 Defender has no Elite Pilot Talent.
• Bombs are actually used quite often, see the Regional Results and Store Championship thread.
• Which dial is better is not so clear cut, but I think the Firespray has the better dial. Why? The Firespray doesn't need to K-turn nearly as much as other ships, since it has a rear arc. Given that the Firespray can turn without stressing itself, it can be strongly argued that the Firespray has a better dial. Once the Defender is stressed it MUST move straight if it wishes to ever get an action.

Some notes:

• It has been confirmed that the PS3 Defender has no Elite Pilot Talent.
• Bombs are actually used quite often, see the Regional Results and Store Championship thread.
• Which dial is better is not so clear cut, but I think the Firespray has the better dial. Why? The Firespray doesn't need to K-turn nearly as much as other ships, since it has a rear arc. Given that the Firespray can turn without stressing itself, it can be strongly argued that the Firespray has a better dial. Once the Defender is stressed it MUST move straight if it wishes to ever get an action.

I would also argue that the White Koiogran can be analogous to the Rear Arc. Neither ship ever stresses about shooting behind them, after all.

MajorJuggler:

Having played them, I find the white K-Turn to be every bit as amazing as it was first suspected it would be.

The obvious reason, that you don't lose an action, is nice but not really that big a deal unless you combine it with an Engine upgrade. The engine allows you to "shorten" the K-Turn (important if your opponent also K-turned and you want to get behind them while they clear stress), but it also allows you to face in any direction you wish without stress. 45 degrees? Bank. 90 degrees? Either bank + boost or turn. 135 degrees? K-Turn plus boost. 180 degrees just k-turn.

You aren't stressed. This allows you to "gamble" on a K-turn, because it really isn't that big of a deal if you miss. You can always just try again the turn after that, or pick something different. You can also receive actions from other ships. The biggest advantage it gives however is that your next turns moves are not limited in any way.

One other comment about the dial. I find it hard to accept that the Defender is seen as having a poor dial. One of the best dials in the game up to now was the TIE Bomber, though it operated differently. You just had to operate the ship like an energy fighter, rather than a turn fighter. You fly past, k-turn, fly past, k-turn, repeat, altering your heading with banks and barrel rolls in order to fine tune your approach into something other than a series of jousts. The Defender flies the same way, with the added advantage of having every single maneuver in the game available to it from 1 turns to a 1 straight to a green 5 straight. I find it difficult to understand why anyone thinks this is a bad dial just because 2 seldom necessary turns are red. Compare that to ships that simply don't have the turns available at all!

The K-Turn similarity to a rear firing arc only holds up for one turn. After that, the white k-turn has a clear advantage because you will be able to get behind your opponent. Both the Firespray and the Defender can keep shooting every turn, but the Firespray will do so while remaining in front of the enemy.

I'm just saying that the more I play the ship, the more I believe it is costed appropriately. For example, I took a 27 point Dagger with Advanced Sensors, and made it look like a complete clown. K-Turn+boost, K-Turn, bank+boost, k-turn, etc. It got two focused shots off on the first pass (one before and one after the first k-turn), then never got another shot off. It might not have gotten both of those if I hadn't also been avoiding firing arcs from other ships.

The Defender as a closer is a very powerful ship, and it has the stat line to let it survive long enough to be that closer.

Such hate for a ship that's not even been released, let alone been through the trials of tournaments. I reckon the Defender's strong suit has yet to be found. And if you're all right and it's not got enough bang for its buck, then the upside is we have our second ship for the Imperial Aces II box.

KO I agree that a engine upgrade will be amazing on a Defender my concern is at that point though you are talking 34pts minimum and on the named pilots 39-41 pts before EPS/secondary weapons, I wish they either added a special mod for the defender to get boost for 2-3pts or build it in and make the defenders base cost 2-3pts higher

Such hate for a ship that's not even been released, let alone been through the trials of tournaments. I reckon the Defender's strong suit has yet to be found. And if you're all right and it's not got enough bang for its buck, then the upside is we have our second ship for the Imperial Aces II box.

Such hate for a ship that's not even been released, let alone been through the trials of tournaments. I reckon the Defender's strong suit has yet to be found. And if you're all right and it's not got enough bang for its buck, then the upside is we have our second ship for the Imperial Aces II box.

This is more, well reasoned pity, and a statement it's unlikely I'll play the thing. More than anything else, I see it as kind of boring, making the cost prohibitive. It's trick is painted right on its sleeve. There's no clever combos, no unique uses, nothing. Compared to how amazingly fun the Phantom looks, it's just meh. It isn't as agile as the Interceptor, or even the tie. It's not as unique to the faction as the B-Wing, and doesn't get the fun upgrades. It just whips back an forth... I wish it had Boost instead of Barrel Roll. That would have made it really fun. But paying 34 points for it to get Boost... Just seems like too much.

Yes, typically the Defender will tend more towards the mean. But I've lost two Interceptors to back to back attacks before. Over the course of a long tournament that's going to happen more and more. Sure, it might only be 1 game out of 6, but that 1 game costs me the tournament when 1/3 of my fleet is gone on turn one of combat without getting to fire, and I still have two ships firing at me to worry about. That's where reliability comes in. High agility is an illusion, a feeling of safety that can all too easily vanish.

As to what I want from the Defender. Let's look at it this way.

It pays 10 points per point of attack.

An A-wing pays 7.5(with Chaardan), and an Advanced pays 10.5. An X-wing pays 7. A B-Wing, 7.333

With a HLC the defender is paying 9.25. That's a pretty high number. The highest small ship cost per point of attack in the game.

Now, part of this is that I plan based on Murphy's law. An A-wing will take 4 hits(5 if I take an evade action). An X-wing will take 5. A Defender will take 6. A B-wing will take 8. I can't bank on agility. It's bad planning. And that makes the Defender bad. It's defense is its strength, but I can't afford to trust it.

Agility is probabilistic armor. Counting on it to deliver a non-zero number of evades on a particular roll is of course a bad idea, but one of the advantages of the longer hp track is that you can survive weak rolls--that is, trusting the Defender is a better bet than trusting other 3 Agility ships because the consequences of a failed roll are substantially less dire.

I mean, I'm not saying anything new here, but saying you can't trust 3 Agility/6 hp is odd, since it's more trustworthy than any other ship in its class.

I think it is an amazing ship and, once the initial Phantom-frenzy subsides as people realize its weaknesses, people will begin to find the Defender's strengths. I don't really understand why people say the Defender doesn't really synergize because hey, neither does the Phantom. Both are alpha predators in their own right, they simply have differing methods on how they kill their prey. Depending on how it is played it will either be the most predictable ship in the list or the least predictable. I for one am looking forward to this triple Defender list:

Vessery + EU

2x Delta

i think it is overcosted and will be under used, that is until more cannons come out. you might have a white k-turn but that can be blocked, meaning your stuck using red turns which as an imp player i really dislike.

So, at what point do we all admit that we have absolutely no idea what we're talking about, and concede that we need to see how the meta pans out before we pass judgment?

So, at what point do we all admit that we have absolutely no idea what we're talking, and concede that we need to see how the meta pans out before we pass judgment?

Around the time Wave 5 spoilers drop.