You can disagree with my assessment of its movement ability all you want. Coming into a high stress given environment however, those lack of greens that aren't straights. In my opinion will make it subpar, in some instances. Telling me it isn't won't change that opinion. It's ok, I love the ship, and I'm not saying it's bad. Be at peace all.

I will say this. Defenders will someday enjoy being Comms Boostered as much as B-wings.

The way his pilot ability is stated, this could mean that the cards are dealt, THEN flipped, meaning they stick to pilots with Determination or are named Chewbacca.

Like I said. Nuts.

As you're well aware, that was the very first thing I ever said about the Defender.

Back when it was spoiled I brought this up, it spawned a 10 page thread.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/98744-tie-defender-balance-discussion-not-competitively-priced/

Summary:

• The TIE Defender has about the same jousting value (for its cost) as the TIE Advanced.
• The Firespray is about 15% more durable than the Defender based on its stat line.
• We didn't know the dial at the time, but we do now.

From a cost efficiency standpoint, the TIE Defender is basically a TIE Advanced with a different dial and a cannon slot.

Unfortunately this won't matter to a lot of people, they see the extra attack die and all of a sudden "OMG its amazing the Advanced just blows"

For many people this may be true. But it doesn't really matter. The competitive meta will sift through everything and the best lists and the best piloting will rise to the top, as always.

The way his pilot ability is stated, this could mean that the cards are dealt, THEN flipped, meaning they stick to pilots with Determination or are named Chewbacca.

Like I said. Nuts.

As you're well aware, that was the very first thing I ever said about the Defender.

Great minds plagiarize alike

If you've read Chewbacca's entry in the FAQ, it makes it pretty clear that flipped cards stick. Seeing as how Rexler's card specifically uses the word 'flip,' I'd say there's nothing ambiguous about it at all.

The TIE Defender isn't quite as point-over costed as the TIE Advanced, and it will have its place in 100pt lists.

What really is going to diminish it's place, however, is that both named pilot abilities are poor for the Defender. Corran Horn's pilot ability is one of the best of the game's yet, and we will see him more than the unnamed E-Wings IMO.

We must be talking about a different ship, because the Defender abilities are both amazing.

Yeah, especially Brath. The possibilty to turn every hit you made into critical is huge! Give him predator so he can reroll a dice. Pair him with Jonus and give him a HLC.

Rexler+HLC+Predator

Captain Jonus+VI

Carnor Jax+PtL

99pts and everybody shoot at PS8.

Well you do need a focus to use his ability, so if you used his focus to modify the attack dice, his ability can't be used. This comes in the fact that you have to depend a lot on your dice rolls, then decide whether to keep the roll (and not modify, hoping the defender rolled badly in order to use the ability) or to modify to hit.

I'm not completely sold on the awesomeness of his ability just yet, that is probably because my dice rolls are horrific and always have to depend on modification of the dice.

The TIE Defender isn't quite as point-over costed as the TIE Advanced, and it will have its place in 100pt lists.

What really is going to diminish it's place, however, is that both named pilot abilities are poor for the Defender. Corran Horn's pilot ability is one of the best of the game's yet, and we will see him more than the unnamed E-Wings IMO.

We must be talking about a different ship, because the Defender abilities are both amazing.

Yeah, especially Brath. The possibilty to turn every hit you made into critical is huge! Give him predator so he can reroll a dice. Pair him with Jonus and give him a HLC.

Rexler+HLC+Predator

Captain Jonus+VI

Carnor Jax+PtL

99pts and everybody shoot at PS8.

Well you do need a focus to use his ability, so if you used his focus to modify the attack dice, his ability can't be used. This comes in the fact that you have to depend a lot on your dice rolls, then decide whether to keep the roll (and not modify, hoping the defender rolled badly in order to use the ability) or to modify to hit.

I'm not completely sold on the awesomeness of his ability just yet, that is probably because my dice rolls are horrific and always have to depend on modification of the dice.

Honestly, that's not totally correct. There are loads of new cards that will help you, Outmaneuver and Predator being chief among them. These both allow you to increase your odds of hitting without even consuming your action. Relatively cheap control ships like an OGP + Tactician + Ion Cannon can deny your opponents their evasive measures. You could also use ordnance like Homing Missiles that come with their own built in methods of modification. Sure it might run on the expensive side, but it's like the A-Bomb: can't argue with the cost if it gets the job done.

The TIE Defender isn't quite as point-over costed as the TIE Advanced, and it will have its place in 100pt lists.

What really is going to diminish it's place, however, is that both named pilot abilities are poor for the Defender. Corran Horn's pilot ability is one of the best of the game's yet, and we will see him more than the unnamed E-Wings IMO.

We must be talking about a different ship, because the Defender abilities are both amazing.

Yeah, especially Brath. The possibilty to turn every hit you made into critical is huge! Give him predator so he can reroll a dice. Pair him with Jonus and give him a HLC.

Rexler+HLC+Predator

Captain Jonus+VI

Carnor Jax+PtL

99pts and everybody shoot at PS8.

Well you do need a focus to use his ability, so if you used his focus to modify the attack dice, his ability can't be used. This comes in the fact that you have to depend a lot on your dice rolls, then decide whether to keep the roll (and not modify, hoping the defender rolled badly in order to use the ability) or to modify to hit.

I'm not completely sold on the awesomeness of his ability just yet, that is probably because my dice rolls are horrific and always have to depend on modification of the dice.

Honestly, that's not totally correct. There are loads of new cards that will help you, Outmaneuver and Predator being chief among them. These both allow you to increase your odds of hitting without even consuming your action. Relatively cheap control ships like an OGP + Tactician + Ion Cannon can deny your opponents their evasive measures. You could also use ordnance like Homing Missiles that come with their own built in methods of modification. Sure it might run on the expensive side, but it's like the A-Bomb: can't argue with the cost if it gets the job done.

With Predator, re-rolling dice is nice, but it is the same as it depends on the roll, hoping to roll a hit or crit. I would probably find Outmaneuver more useful, since it reduces a dice roll of the defender, a guarantee.

With Predator, re-rolling dice is nice, but it is the same as it depends on the roll, hoping to roll a hit or crit. I would probably find Outmaneuver more useful, since it reduces a dice roll of the defender, a guarantee.

Yeah, I know I must have said this a million times on this forum but I can't wait to Ion someone and then Kio behind them, take an action , and then really let them have it. Y-Wings are doomed.

With Predator, re-rolling dice is nice, but it is the same as it depends on the roll, hoping to roll a hit or crit. I would probably find Outmaneuver more useful, since it reduces a dice roll of the defender, a guarantee.

Yeah, I know I must have said this a million times on this forum but I can't wait to Ion someone and then Kio behind them, take an action , and then really let them have it. Y-Wings are doomed.

Don't forget about the crazy kill-box you can make by using one of your 3 banks, then a koiogran, then one of your 3 turns (the 3 distance one lets you keep your action), then one of your 3 banks.... repeat. It's not so much of a zig-zag as it is a Quarter-Rest.

As for interceptors, I just looked again at the lists of top cuts from regionals, and I didn't see many (if any) hull upgrades, so not sure what you meant there. There were plenty of elite PTL, with an occasional variation of SD or TC, and or Alphas with nothing.

Apparently I don't apply and getting in the top 4 at a 49 person regionals means nothing. I used 3 RGP+Hull+PtL and DC. I was glad I did, every win was with only losing one ship and my only lose in swiss was just because I focused the wrong ship, then when I went up against Dallas, I made gambits and they didn't pay off, his dice were a lot hotter then mine and I didn't play to my strengths of maneuvering with the interceptors.

The defender will have its place in 100 point games. People just need to fly it and stop speculating with out further testing.

Yes they are. Not because they're bad, but because they are too expensive to fit on a team, and too reliant on green dice to be reliable over the course of a large number of games.

Uhm... What?

The Defender is second only to the B/Y-wing in toughness for a small-based ship. It has the same Hull as an X-wing with one more shield, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest that an X-wing is "too reliant on green dice".

I think a lot of people are freaking out about the Defender's high cost without actually considering what you get for it.

With Predator, re-rolling dice is nice, but it is the same as it depends on the roll, hoping to roll a hit or crit. I would probably find Outmaneuver more useful, since it reduces a dice roll of the defender, a guarantee.

The reduced die roll is no more a guarantee than rerolling for Predator. The die you cost the defender has a 5/8 chance of coming up with something other than an evade as well.

I believe the point being made was that there are a growing number of attack-enhancing abilities which Rexlar can use to improve his attack while preserving his focus token for... well, let's just gloss that, since it's a family-friendly forum and all.

The defender will have its place in 100 point games. People just need to fly it and stop speculating with out further testing.

This.

The second place at Kublacon included a 46-point Krassis. The Defender (and Phantom, for that matter) will live in the same realm - a key centerpiece surrounded by the support of your choice.

As for interceptors, I just looked again at the lists of top cuts from regionals, and I didn't see many (if any) hull upgrades, so not sure what you meant there. There were plenty of elite PTL, with an occasional variation of SD or TC, and or Alphas with nothing.

Apparently I don't apply and getting in the top 4 at a 49 person regionals means nothing. I used 3 RGP+Hull+PtL and DC. I was glad I did, every win was with only losing one ship and my only lose in swiss was just because I focused the wrong ship, then when I went up against Dallas, I made gambits and they didn't pay off, his dice were a lot hotter then mine and I didn't play to my strengths of maneuvering with the interceptors.

The defender will have its place in 100 point games. People just need to fly it and stop speculating with out further testing.

I did miss your list, but the post I was responding to implied hull upgrade was ubiquitous, and it's far from it.

With Predator, re-rolling dice is nice, but it is the same as it depends on the roll, hoping to roll a hit or crit. I would probably find Outmaneuver more useful, since it reduces a dice roll of the defender, a guarantee.

Isn't it the essence of dice games? Combined with Jonus and Predator, you can reroll up to 3 dice on a Secondary weapon, HLC in that case. If you have to break formation or shoot with your primary weapon, you still have a reoll, or 2 against PS1-2 ship. Since you can also reroll your focus reroll, I would guess that 4 dice with 3 reroll vs 4 dice with focus is pretty much the same, slightly in favor of the focus shot. Don't want to use scondary weapons? Pair him with Howlrunner and Predator, so you can reroll 2 dice out of 3. But personaly, looking at the dial, it can fly in formation quite well with the Bombers. Both have all 3 banks, a white 3 turn and red 2 turn, K-turn is only 1 speed away. Only maneuvers missing from the bomber dial is the 5 straight and the 1 hard turn, but since this one is red, I don't think it will be used that often.

Outmaneuver is also really nice, but don't forget that you need to shoot outside the enemy firing arc, so you won't use it every turn. Predator is a free reroll, no condition or action required. I tried both and overall, I prefer Predator consistency over Outmaneuver.

Yes they are. Not because they're bad, but because they are too expensive to fit on a team, and too reliant on green dice to be reliable over the course of a large number of games.

Uhm... What?

The Defender is second only to the B/Y-wing in toughness for a small-based ship. It has the same Hull as an X-wing with one more shield, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest that an X-wing is "too reliant on green dice".

I think a lot of people are freaking out about the Defender's high cost without actually considering what you get for it.

Which is why I say they are overly reliant on green dice. If they roll badly they're a 30 point X wing.

Consistancy is key in tournament play. I know within a margin of error of 1 how many hits it takes to kill a b-wing or an x-wing. 7-10 for a B-wing. 4-7 for an x-wing. For a defender it's 5-12, and I need that to be around 9 or more. Statisitically it will be most of the time. But the one time during a tournament it isn't it probably costs me the game, and I am out of the rankings.

Agreed on that front. The odds of not missing with at least one die are pretty low with a three attack die ship, so it's pretty much equivalent to an extra attack die. And let's be honest, if you make a full sweep of hits, you're probably not going to mind.

Adding an attack die does more to the relative scores than removing a defence die, even before you get to the situational nature of Outmanouvre .

The defender costs 30 points, not 21. For the most part it costs the same as a Firespray for the same offense and slightly worse defense when green dice are counted. People talk about Wedge's fragility all the time. Same applies here. X-wings are fragile, cheap, and powerful. Defenders are tough, expensive, and need to stay alive a lot longer to earn their points because of how much they cut into your squad budget. They don't make good flankers because of the lack of turning options. They have to approach virtually head on.

Which is why I say they are overly reliant on green dice. If they roll badly they're a 30 point X wing.

Consistancy is key in tournament play. I know within a margin of error of 1 how many hits it takes to kill a b-wing or an x-wing. 7-10 for a B-wing. 4-7 for an x-wing. For a defender it's 5-12, and I need that to be around 9 or more. Statisitically it will be most of the time. But the one time during a tournament it isn't it probably costs me the game, and I am out of the rankings.

I agree with you that the Defender won't fit everyone's playstyle. It certainly has a distinct feel in terms of how it manoeuvres around and some people may find it unexciting.

However, I think its distinctive dial is appealing to some extent. Its not going to be as exciting or flashy to fly as say, the Phantom, but its a solid ship and brings something unique to the empire - a way to carry ion & HLC on a small base. Basically, its the empire's version of the B-wing, but obviously it flies nothing like a b-wing, often preferring long straight/banks rather than short tight turns. But that doesn't make it inferior...just different.

For fun, if you have Vassal, try flying a 1v1 with a Delta pilot against Wedge. If you want to make the points even, give Wedge R2 or R5. I think you'd be surprised at how well the Defender does despite being PS1 vs PS9.

The defender costs 30 points, not 21. For the most part it costs the same as a Firespray for the same offense and slightly worse defense when green dice are counted. People talk about Wedge's fragility all the time. Same applies here. X-wings are fragile, cheap, and powerful. Defenders are tough, expensive, and need to stay alive a lot longer to earn their points because of how much they cut into your squad budget. They don't make good flankers because of the lack of turning options. They have to approach virtually head on.

Which is why I say they are overly reliant on green dice. If they roll badly they're a 30 point X wing.

Consistancy is key in tournament play. I know within a margin of error of 1 how many hits it takes to kill a b-wing or an x-wing. 7-10 for a B-wing. 4-7 for an x-wing. For a defender it's 5-12, and I need that to be around 9 or more. Statisitically it will be most of the time. But the one time during a tournament it isn't it probably costs me the game, and I am out of the rankings.

I agree with you that the Defender won't fit everyone's playstyle. It certainly has a distinct feel in terms of how it manoeuvres around and some people may find it unexciting.

However, I think its distinctive dial is appealing to some extent. Its not going to be as exciting or flashy to fly as say, the Phantom, but its a solid ship and brings something unique to the empire - a way to carry ion & HLC on a small base. Basically, its the empire's version of the B-wing, but obviously it flies nothing like a b-wing, often preferring long straight/banks rather than short tight turns. But that doesn't make it inferior...just different.

For fun, if you have Vassal, try flying a 1v1 with a Delta pilot against Wedge. If you want to make the points even, give Wedge R2 or R5. I think you'd be surprised at how well the Defender does despite being PS1 vs PS9.

Not a fan of Wedge. Beyond that one on one is a terrible measure of ship balance. One on One high agility is good. It's reliably possible to always have a focus against attacks, at which point facing Wedge it's an X-wing with a shield upgrade and a different dial. The issue is that Defense dice in Hundred point games will only be modified on occasion. And Wedge against a PS1 Pilot s overcosted by 7 PS worth of points. It isn't a fair judge of capability outside of the end game. A place neither Wedge nor Defenders are designed to wind up.

Well given your disdain of the defender, I'm not surprised you don't like Wedge. They are both aggressive ships. But my point wasn't to somehow prove the defender is balanced, only that you'd have the opportunity to see how it can move and fight effectively despite its perceived drawbacks. If you're not willing to take it for a spin, then I don't know what else to tell ya...

As I said before, its not total crap, and if it is overcosted, playing with it so far *feels* like maybe it should be 1 pt less or bump generic PS up to 2/4. My feelings based on limited playtime, mind you, but time will tell I guess.

I like reliability. High PS to date, has not been worth it. High Agility to date, has not proved useful in keeping ships alive over a series of games. Positioning abilites have proved useful. Low cost high damage ships have proven to be useful. Ships with extra firing arcs and large amounts of HP have proven useful. I just don't see the Defender offering enough over its competition to be useful. It's not as bad as the advanced, the dial is better, and the stats are better. But it isn't an efficient ship. Efficiency wins games, and is the sign of a good list.

I have yet to see an efficiently built Defender list.(Although mostly I see them in 3 ship list. (Granted, 3 Defender lists are probably better than 3 X lists, but again, I think it's over-rated and overshadowed by the Firespray.

I like reliability. High PS to date, has not been worth it. High Agility to date, has not proved useful in keeping ships alive over a series of games. Positioning abilites have proved useful. Low cost high damage ships have proven to be useful. Ships with extra firing arcs and large amounts of HP have proven useful. I just don't see the Defender offering enough over its competition to be useful. It's not as bad as the advanced, the dial is better, and the stats are better. But it isn't an efficient ship. Efficiency wins games, and is the sign of a good list.

I have yet to see an efficiently built Defender list.(Although mostly I see them in 3 ship list. (Granted, 3 Defender lists are probably better than 3 X lists, but again, I think it's over-rated and overshadowed by the Firespray.

Efficient is a relative term, and different people are going to rate certain aspects more or less based on their expectations, I guess, but I find it hard to believe anyone would call a 3/3/3/3 statline for 30 pts 'inefficient'. Even more surprising that you are comfortable making this judgement without even using the ship... o.O

Edit: I thought of something that the Defender does do reliably, way more so than the Firespray or even the shuttle, and that is maintain a desired range to targets. So if you're packing ion cannon or HLC, you can reliably fire it far more often over the course of a game than either the firespray or shuttle. This is due to its dial: it has all the banks and turns plus the barrel roll action for fine-tuning your position.

Opponent going fast? 3 bank/turn to catch up. Need to go slow to maximize long range fire? 1 bank + barrel roll. Opponents passing you? white K-turn. Neither the Firespray or the Shuttle has those kind of options to keep its secondary weapon firing all game long.

For fun, if you have Vassal, try flying a 1v1 with a Delta pilot against Wedge. If you want to make the points even, give Wedge R2 or R5. I think you'd be surprised at how well the Defender does despite being PS1 vs PS9.

That matchup is giving about 7 points in the Defender's FAVOR, because Wedge is paying for a PS bid that he can't take advantage of. To "make the points even" you should be spotting Wedge an Engine Upgrade, Push the Limit, and an R2 droid. And even that's not a fair comparison, because upgrades are almost never as efficient as simply putting those points towards more ships. If you want to compare ship to ship you don't use named pilots to do it, its not an apples to apples comparison.

Bottom line, from a cost efficiency perspective the TIE Defender is essentially a TIE Advanced with a different dial, a cannon slot, and minus the almost-never-used evade action. This much is not debatable, it is simply reality. The only thing that is debatable is if the TIE Advanced would become a good ship if it had a cannon slot and the Defender's dial.