My mistake. I looked back at the thread and the conclusion was that the firespray survives one more attack than the defender. It was the B-wing comparison in that same thread that mixed me up.

As for interceptors, I just looked again at the lists of top cuts from regionals, and I didn't see many (if any) hull upgrades, so not sure what you meant there. There were plenty of elite PTL, with an occasional variation of SD or TC, and or Alphas with nothing.

I'm not saying a defender is an auto include by any means, but I think it has more potential to be competitive than people are giving it credit for.

They have potential, but I'd rather have a Firespray any day of the week. The rear arc and access to crew outweighs the base size significantly.

If we're talking basic ship cost here and survivability, I disagree. The firespray is more customizable but it starts to get more expensive.

If we're talking about that specifically, sure. But it's a very narrow way of comparing two very different ships, and in a vacuum no less.

I don't disagree with this by any means --and right now it's the same thing people are doing here, but I think the Defender, not unlike the Phantom, are going to be very hard to find comparisons for.

I think part of my point was that comparisons which don't take the meta into account are ultimately fruitless. That having been said, there are a few observations we can make at this point to objectively gauge the Defender's effectiveness without drawing parallels.

Give an HLC Tie Defender a try. I played against it the other night and was quite impressed. Quite possibly it is the best HLC platform, even with the PS 1 and 37 pts. That 4 k turn means it always gets used WITH an action. I was skeptical at first, but now am a believer.

If we're talking basic ship cost here and survivability, I disagree. The firespray is more customizable but it starts to get more expensive.

If we're talking about that specifically, sure. But it's a very narrow way of comparing two very different ships, and in a vacuum no less.

I don't disagree with this by any means --and right now it's the same thing people are doing here, but I think the Defender, not unlike the Phantom, are going to be very hard to find comparisons for.

I think the Defender is getting a little bit underestimated. The Defender will take less shots than a Firespray. So that 1 more shot it takes to kill a Firespray is a bit of a wash. Do not underestimate the small base in the comparison.

Is the Defender a super customizable machine like the E-wing or Phantom, no. But don't underestimate it's tricks. The Ion Cannon + white K-turn is going to annoy people. And all this concern about it's lack of green doesn't concern once I start slapping Predator on Rexlar or Vessory. I look forward to trying 2 Defenders with HLC and Jonus. Heck, Vessory with some TIEs and Targeting Computer will be fun.

I think far too many trusted the Mathwing analysis a bit too much. Much like the other ships, I'm sure they will have effective showings. I mean, how many people dismissed the shuttle, interceptor, and/or HWK.

The 2 x HLC Defender and Jonus list sounds quite epic. It is everything the HLC Shuttle, HLC Firespray and Jonus list wanted to be, in a smaller more maneuverable package. It just makes sense!

All that sounds just dandy, until you have to turn. It's a good thing everyone simply jousts, right?

All that sounds just dandy, until you have to turn. It's a good thing everyone simply jousts, right?

While the Defender's move are going to be a bit predictable, inevitably, its not as if it *just* moves in a straight line....look at the x-wing: its moves are often predictable yet it still manages to be an effective ship.

One of the really nice things about the Defender's dial is the 1 bank. Not many imperial ships have it, and it allows you to 'slow roll' in a way that the Firespray can't. Makes it a bit more effective as a HLC carrier.

With the staight green only and red hard turns, I fear it will be a highly predictable ship to go up against. If it had at least a green banking turn option, the high price would be easier to swallow.

But, I'll need to fly it a couple of time before passing judgment. Just avoid stress at all cost.

Highly predictable until they forgo clearing the stress and K-Turn.

Yeah, it is only predictable if you assume someone will always try to clear stress after a red or gain stress.

And that's why upgrades that don't generate or rely on stress (Opportunist, PtL) will be ideal on the Defender, but being stressed does have other ramifications. The white K-turn isn't so much a luxury as it is a necessity. How many people have been vexed by the inability to take another red maneuver when already stressed? Trying to do a hard turn on a shuttle comes to mind, and that's not exactly a rare scenario.

The TIE Defender isn't quite as point-over costed as the TIE Advanced, and it will have its place in 100pt lists.

What really is going to diminish it's place, however, is that both named pilot abilities are poor for the Defender. Corran Horn's pilot ability is one of the best of the game's yet, and we will see him more than the unnamed E-Wings IMO.

Back when it was spoiled I brought this up, it spawned a 10 page thread.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/98744-tie-defender-balance-discussion-not-competitively-priced/

Summary:

• The TIE Defender has about the same jousting value (for its cost) as the TIE Advanced.
• The Firespray is about 15% more durable than the Defender based on its stat line.
• We didn't know the dial at the time, but we do now.

From a cost efficiency standpoint, the TIE Defender is basically a TIE Advanced with a different dial and a cannon slot.

And that's why upgrades that don't generate or rely on stress (Opportunist, PtL) will be ideal on the Defender,

I agree, only upgrades I see being used really will be Predator, or Outmaneuver(and of course adrenaline rush), Engine upgrades will be nice too, a 1 bank after a K-turn is almost as good as a turn

I don't think this will be a huge issue. The white K turn in the right hands will be huge, also the eruption of stress torps and ion missles, with their own use of ion cannon. Their moves may be predictable, but unless your being stressed or stressing them, it doesn't matter the moves mostly are whites. Though as some might know, I spend a lot of time using shuttles so, this will feel like a picnic to maneuver even with its sub par dial.

With the staight green only and red hard turns, I fear it will be a highly predictable ship to go up against. If it had at least a green banking turn option, the high price would be easier to swallow.

But, I'll need to fly it a couple of time before passing judgment. Just avoid stress at all cost.

Highly predictable until they forgo clearing the stress and K-Turn.

That's still predictable. There was good chances that he would do a Straight 2 to 5 to clear stress and he just did a straight 4. Only difference is that he now can shoot at me. But since he's still stressed, he has no focus or TL to help his shot or, more importantly, his defense, and we all know how green dice without mod is reliable. Morale of the story, don't get stress with this ship.

As for playstyle, I think it's a hit and run ship:

1-take your shot

2a-do a high speed straight or try to turn (bank or hard 3) in the other direction than the ship you shot last turn.

3a-do a k-turn

2b-do a k-turn

3b-hard turn 3 in the direction the ship went last turn.

Though as some might know, I spend a lot of time using shuttles so, this will feel like a picnic to maneuver even with its sub par dial.

The dial is not 'sub par'. In fact, its quite good. Yes, there are times when you will really want to a short, sharp turn. Its not like the Defender can't do them, but yeah, having to go straight afterwards to clear the stress is annoying, but not game breaking.

I think if it is overpriced, or sub-optimal, maybe by a mere 1 pt. I kinda wish the generics were PS 2/4. I'd have zero issues with it then.

What really is going to diminish it's place, however, is that both named pilot abilities are poor for the Defender. Corran Horn's pilot ability is one of the best of the game's yet, and we will see him more than the unnamed E-Wings IMO.

Brath's ability isn't bad against large ships and Y-wings but against ships that don't have as much hull and instead rely on shields (B-wings especially) it is less than amazing, Vessery's ability is really kinda meh I can see him being used more of just a mid PS defender, and less for his ability

Back when it was spoiled I brought this up, it spawned a 10 page thread.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/98744-tie-defender-balance-discussion-not-competitively-priced/

Summary:

• The TIE Defender has about the same jousting value (for its cost) as the TIE Advanced.
• The Firespray is about 15% more durable than the Defender based on its stat line.
• We didn't know the dial at the time, but we do now.

From a cost efficiency standpoint, the TIE Defender is basically a TIE Advanced with a different dial and a cannon slot.

Unfortunately this won't matter to a lot of people, they see the extra attack die and all of a sudden "OMG its amazing the Advanced just blows"

The TIE Defender isn't quite as point-over costed as the TIE Advanced, and it will have its place in 100pt lists.

What really is going to diminish it's place, however, is that both named pilot abilities are poor for the Defender. Corran Horn's pilot ability is one of the best of the game's yet, and we will see him more than the unnamed E-Wings IMO.

We must be talking about a different ship, because the Defender abilities are both amazing.

I don't think this will be a huge issue. The white K turn in the right hands will be huge, also the eruption of stress torps and ion missles, with their own use of ion cannon. Their moves may be predictable, but unless your being stressed or stressing them, it doesn't matter the moves mostly are whites. Though as some might know, I spend a lot of time using shuttles so, this will feel like a picnic to maneuver even with its sub par dial.

"Sub-par"?

Someone didn't notice that, even though 2/3 of its turns are red, this is the first ship in the game with all 12 Turn and Bank options. I can't wait to try one of the named ones with an Adrenaline Rush, just to drive this point home.

The TIE Defender isn't quite as point-over costed as the TIE Advanced, and it will have its place in 100pt lists.

What really is going to diminish it's place, however, is that both named pilot abilities are poor for the Defender. Corran Horn's pilot ability is one of the best of the game's yet, and we will see him more than the unnamed E-Wings IMO.

We must be talking about a different ship, because the Defender abilities are both amazing.

Yeah, especially Brath. The possibilty to turn every hit you made into critical is huge! Give him predator so he can reroll a dice. Pair him with Jonus and give him a HLC.

Rexler+HLC+Predator

Captain Jonus+VI

Carnor Jax+PtL

99pts and everybody shoot at PS8.

Let's not for get the first ship to have more the 4 damage with 3 agility dice. Tie Defender will find a home somewhere but that home could be in Epic not Standard.

The TIE Defender isn't quite as point-over costed as the TIE Advanced, and it will have its place in 100pt lists.

What really is going to diminish it's place, however, is that both named pilot abilities are poor for the Defender. Corran Horn's pilot ability is one of the best of the game's yet, and we will see him more than the unnamed E-Wings IMO.

We must be talking about a different ship, because the Defender abilities are both amazing.

Agreed.

Colonel Vessery requires a little bit of squad-building intelligence (not a good ability if the rest of your fleet is just TIE Fighters and Interceptors), but is substantially better than 3 Academy Pilots in any non-Howlrunner fleet.

He has automatic Target Locks, before he attacks, in a 3 attack ship. For no action. While stressed.

This ability would still have been good on a TIE Advanced, for crying out loud!

Rexler Brath is... Wow. Someone popped a Kritzkrieg on his mom when she was giving birth or something, 'cause this guy is NUTS.

Every hull damage he does is just a Focus Token away from being a crit. Every shield damage he does is analogous to a crit anyway, as they have the same ultimate end (removal of a shield token). Basically, if you don't need to spend your focus offensively to deal more damage, you can STILL spend your focus offensively to deal EVEN MORE damage.

Except, here's the thing: The way his pilot ability is stated, this could mean that the cards are dealt, THEN flipped, meaning they stick to pilots with Determination or are named Chewbacca.

Like I said. Nuts.

I have looked at it all week, and sorry as an Empire player, not too happy.

First of 30 pts for PS1? Reallyreally?

I can handle most but I fear the Tie Defender will be a new Tie Advance, basically too pricy...

Well, if one wanted they could just take some cheap ones and load them with Ion Cannons and send them against Huge ships to starve them out.