I have looked at it all week, and sorry as an Empire player, not too happy.

First of 30 pts for PS1? Reallyreally?

I can handle most but I fear the Tie Defender will be a new Tie Advance, basically too pricy...

A lot of people have already expressed concern for the defender's pricing, so I would say it's more likely to be underrated at this point.

Personally I find it a hard sell over a royal guard with hull and shield upgrade, a lot of people like to compare it with the firespray. Either way it definitely needs some time to prove itself in tournament play before anyone declares it it to be amazing or useless. I will be playing it a lot myself even if it's bad since I like the ship so I hope it is at least okay even if it's not amazing.

I think the TD is more pic play than anything.

I find it difficult to think of things as either overrated or underrated before they're even released.

I find it difficult to think of things as either overrated or underrated before they're even released.

Yeah, this. Well have a much better idea of how well it flys after everyone has a chance to play with/against it instead of just a few people proxying it for a game or two and a whole lot of useless theory crafting on "the internet".

And you never know what new upgrade card that will come out later that will change EVERYTHING. But for now, the notion of trying to pull crazy K-Turns that you would never attempt otherwise due to the stress still applying is enticing. Pull a 4 speed K-turn and bumped? Oh well!

I don't know about overrated, but it's certainly unimpressive. A white K-turn is nice and all, but a lack of green banks really hurts, especially with red turns. My first thought when I saw the dial was "this thing needs an R2."

With the staight green only and red hard turns, I fear it will be a highly predictable ship to go up against. If it had at least a green banking turn option, the high price would be easier to swallow.

But, I'll need to fly it a couple of time before passing judgment. Just avoid stress at all cost.

I don't think it is overrated, but I think with the strategies and philosophies currently popular in the competitive scene it will do poorly. It is a strong ship, both statwise and in terms or it's dial, but it will require a massive rewrite of standard squad building, deployment, and flying doctrines to prove itself.

At the moment it's most obvious use will be in epic format games where it's high speed dial can be fully utilized on the larger play area, one or two of these supporting flights of squints and eyeballs using divide and conquer tactics will be impressive. Not to mention plowing right though a Corvette's kill zone. If someone can find a way to make the former use work in the standard 100 point format then I think people will love it.

It has a three hard right that is white, correct?

The lack of greens outside of straight will limit its upgrade options (you don't want ones that cause stress). On the other hand, it can k-turn even while stressed and since it's k-turn doesn't cause stress, it doesn't have the need for green as others do in that situation.

I was thinking about this ship, and the more I look at it the more I think it is correct, let's examine why.

PS 1 - not so good,

Base state line is 3/3/3/3 - very good

Missile and Cannon upgrade abilities - outstanding

Last a white K-Turn - brilliant

So I can use an Ion Cannon, next turn move with a white k, target lock and blast with cluster, or use the faceup damage with outman. It seems like 30-40 for ship is a lot even you can normally run 3 ties for the cost. I really like the options and packages you can do with them. They will surprise you when you ion the trash out of everything.

Oh yea 1 defender with an ion cannon and 3 pulse missiles are going to lock down a lot of ships.

I think people expect to be using PtL for ships still, which is probably not the way to be thinking about using the Defender. Is Push the Limit good? Of course! But there are more ways than one to make effective use of a powerful ship like this. Personally, I think that the included cards with the Defender more than make up for it's shortcomings. People compare it a lot to the Firespray 31 in terms of equipment and point cost, which I see as a viable point, but the fact that the Defender has more movement options, an included Barrel Roll action and on a small base makes it more compelling to fly. I think the other thing is that people want more generic pilots with Elite skill slots, and that is understandable, but perhaps people have to work around the game to figure the ship out.

Honestly, though I play Rebellion I'm interested to see what it can do.

And for those rebel scum who are paying attention... Flechette torps if you make it to the finals at imdaar would probably be in your favour... Just saying.

My only concern with the defender is 1 and 2 turns both being red, and the lack of green considering how often i use those short hard turns, on the other hand the ship looks awesome and I cant wait for a loaded Defender Escorted by interceptors

I'm with the sceptics on this one. I honestly believe we won't see a lot of Defenders on Standard Play... Maybe a few ones in Epic Play, if properly supported.

Until Imperials get their huge ships... I'm afraid this ship won't bloom.

It is just too expensive, and its tactics, too limited ATM.

My only concern with the defender is 1 and 2 turns both being red, and the lack of green considering how often i use those short hard turns, on the other hand the ship looks awesome and I cant wait for a loaded Defender Escorted by interceptors

Escorted by Interceptors with Wingman, which may be the biggest waste of potential in the game.

Yes they are. Not because they're bad, but because they are too expensive to fit on a team, and too reliant on green dice to be reliable over the course of a large number of games.

Chooseing Between the TIE/D and the TIE/Ph I think the TIE/Ph wins this round.

The TIE/D does seem overpiced, but I don't think this is going to be another TIE/A debacle.

It's hard to say without seeing it perform. White 4 KTurn is nice, as is the white 3 L turn. It seems to be durable and has a nice enough punch on paper.

Yes they are. Not because they're bad, but because they are too expensive to fit on a team, and too reliant on green dice to be reliable over the course of a large number of games.

Vorpal Sword, one of our resident math experts, pointed out that the defender is more survivable than the firespray mathematically, and that's before the inclusion of barrel role and the small base, which will allow it to be a more effective arc dodger. Given those conclusions and that it is comparable in cost to the firespray, a mainstay of many imperial lists, I think it will do just fine as a fit for a team.

Yes they are. Not because they're bad, but because they are too expensive to fit on a team, and too reliant on green dice to be reliable over the course of a large number of games.

This is, of course, the same argument people made about interceptors and we're seeing them do better in regionals than in store championships - and that is after the release of new stress inducers that caused many to predict their doom.

Vorpal Sword, one of our resident math experts, pointed out that the defender is more survivable than the firespray mathematically, and that's before the inclusion of barrel role and the small base, which will allow it to be a more effective arc dodger. Given those conclusions and that it is comparable in cost to the firespray, a mainstay of many imperial lists, I think it will do just fine as a fit for a team.

That's not exactly a fair comparison, considering everything else the Firespray has going in its favor.

Yes they are. Not because they're bad, but because they are too expensive to fit on a team, and too reliant on green dice to be reliable over the course of a large number of games.

This is, of course, the same argument people made about interceptors and we're seeing them do better in regionals than in store championships - and that is after the release of new stress inducers that caused many to predict their doom.

Vorpal Sword, one of our resident math experts, pointed out that the defender is more survivable than the firespray mathematically, and that's before the inclusion of barrel role and the small base, which will allow it to be a more effective arc dodger. Given those conclusions and that it is comparable in cost to the firespray, a mainstay of many imperial lists, I think it will do just fine as a fit for a team.

That's not exactly a fair comparison, considering everything else the Firespray has going in its favor.

If we're talking basic ship cost here and survivability, I disagree. The firespray is more customizable but it starts to get more expensive.

If we're talking about that specifically, sure. But it's a very narrow way of comparing two very different ships, and in a vacuum no less.

Yes they are. Not because they're bad, but because they are too expensive to fit on a team, and too reliant on green dice to be reliable over the course of a large number of games.

This is, of course, the same argument people made about interceptors and we're seeing them do better in regionals than in store championships - and that is after the release of new stress inducers that caused many to predict their doom.

Vorpal Sword, one of our resident math experts, pointed out that the defender is more survivable than the firespray mathematically, and that's before the inclusion of barrel role and the small base, which will allow it to be a more effective arc dodger. Given those conclusions and that it is comparable in cost to the firespray, a mainstay of many imperial lists, I think it will do just fine as a fit for a team.

My mistake. I looked back at the thread and the conclusion was that the firespray survives one more attack than the defender. It was the B-wing comparison in that same thread that mixed me up.

As for interceptors, I just looked again at the lists of top cuts from regionals, and I didn't see many (if any) hull upgrades, so not sure what you meant there. There were plenty of elite PTL, with an occasional variation of SD or TC, and or Alphas with nothing.

I'm not saying a defender is an auto include by any means, but I think it has more potential to be competitive than people are giving it credit for.