Hot-Shot Lasgun/Hellgun (Lucius-Pattern); RT vs. OW

By Fgdsfg, in Only War Rules Questions

I think I've found the first major inconsistency when it comes to various weapons and their profiles/depictions in the WH40kRP games.

Most other inconsistencies in this way can be explained away with the weapons being different patterns of the same overall designs. There's a difference between the various Lasguns, for example. There's Cadian Hellguns in Ascension, and the Hellguns in Rogue Trader are Lucius-Pattern.

Anyway:

In Rogue Trader, there is the Lucius-Pattern Hellgun, which has a range of 110m.

In Only War, the exact same weapon, now listed as "Hot-Shot Lasgun" (which is just another name for Hellgun), described as also being a Lucius-Pattern. However, the range is now a mere 60m.

Similarly, the Rogue Trader version of the Lucius-Pattern Hellpistol is 35m, while the Only War version is only 20m.

This strikes me as very odd, when a simple change of pattern would've allowed you to preserve both profiles as distinctly different weapons. Instead, they chose to keep the Lucius-Pattern and change it's stats.

Anyone have any idea what the rationale behind this could've been? Personally, I am really feeling the pull to use the Only War version, since it's the "latest update" of the weapon profile, but at the same time, I have no idea why a Hellgun/Hot-Shot Lasgun would have such a drastically reduced range of effectiveness compared to an M36 Lasgun, or any Lasgun pattern I can think of, really.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

Design change.

Pattern names have, in addition to portraying slightly different approaches to a gun's general style, always also been a cop-out to explain intentional differences between the systems that (or so I assume) came to be due to how the games evolved from one book to the next, or simply to conform to a different style of gameplay.

The lasgun charge slider is another example here, given how in Only War it's a universal feature of the weapon system, thus contradicting earlier profiles (and even earlier FFG fluff, see Black Crusade p. 153). And let's not even talk about the Deathwatch autoguns that are incapable of full-auto fire.

In short: Just roll with it. Either choose one profile over the other, or rename one of the patterns and use both, or limit your armoury to those weapons that come with the one product line you're playing. :)

Edited by Lynata

Thoughts?

Design change.

Pattern names have, in addition to portraying slightly different approaches to a gun's general style, always also been a cop-out to explain intentional differences between the systems that (or so I assume) came to be due to how the games evolved from one book to the next, or simply to conform to a different style of gameplay.

The lasgun charge slider is another example here, given how in Only War it's a universal feature of the weapon system, thus contradicting earlier profiles (and even earlier FFG fluff, see Black Crusade p. 153). And let's not even talk about the Deathwatch autoguns that are incapable of full-auto fire.

In short: Just roll with it. Either choose one profile over the other, or rename one of the patterns and use both, or limit your armoury to those weapons that come with the one product line you're playing. :)

The Pattern-names always being a cop-out to explain intentional differences is exactly why I thought this was really odd, since I'd expect them to just create a new standard pattern, but instead they stuck to Lucius, creating this minor (but important) inconsistency.

What you mean by the lasgun charge slider and the earlier fluff in Black Crusade, I'm not entirely sure. Are you referring to the Variable Settings Rule? Because the Hellguns/Hot-Shot Lasguns and the like do not benefit from this. The only thing that is odd to me when it comes to the Variable Settings Rules for (some) Las-weapons is that they decided to make it a special rule in a weapon description which is then referenced in other descriptions, instead of making it an actual Special Quality. Autoguns being incapable of full-auto fire may be a bit odd, but are you sure they are described as the same patterns? Because if not, the excuse is simple, they're just different patterns with different capabilities.

But yeah, we'll just roll with it, I just wanted some opinions in on it. After talking it over with some other people, I've decided that we'll be going with the Only War profiles for Lucius-Pattern Hellguns, based on the fluff and the TT rules. Hellguns have shorter range than M36/35 Lasguns, apparently due to their higher power making them lose beam coherency faster.

This all came up because I'm creating vehicle-mounted twin-linked lucius-pattern hellguns. 60m range or 110m range, it'll hurt either way.

Imho they just reused the name of a famous forge-world without thinking much. One perspective could argue that they were lazy (again) in terms of consistency between their product lines, the other perspective is that each system has to work on its own and is differently balanced.

Just think about Autocannons that were, with full auto, just devastating and later got changed to being semi-automatic only.

In my opinion most of that stuff was never meant to be interchangeable between the settings but because of the nature of their profile they could be utilized that way. So if you play OW and take a look at the RT guns they are just profiles. Their background and everything is not the same in OW as we can obviously see at this problem. If you want them to work, rename them and always treat them like a custom gun you created. They are not made and balanced for another system if they are used in it.

If I take a DH1 IH Autocannon it will throw 5 full-automatic Slugs into any vehicle of the OW setting and crush it where else the OW Autocannon will only throw 3 semi-automatic Slugs around. This is an extreme but you get the Idea.

Edited by FieserMoep
In Black Crusade, lasguns with charge sliders are either a special pattern (reflecting GW's fluff in their own d100 Inquisitor game and the tabletop's Guard Codex) or a heretical modification. In Only War, everybody gets it - as a result to FFG caving in to popular demand during the Beta test.
This might also explain the weird description thing, as the first versions of Only War only had the Triplex-pattern use this feature. Maybe they just didn't edit everything as cleanly as they could have?
As for the autoguns, no pattern was stated. Maybe that's just me, but whenever it is a general profile without a fancy unique name, then I'm assuming that this means a sort of standard, as in "all except specific patterns". So, similar to the default autoguns in other games.

The Pattern-names always being a cop-out to explain intentional differences is exactly why I thought this was really odd, since I'd expect them to just create a new standard pattern, but instead they stuck to Lucius, creating this minor (but important) inconsistency.

It could also just be a coincidence - as in they were looking for a fancy name, someone threw in "Lucius", and they didn't remember it has already been used elsewhere.

[edit] ninja'd - this is what I get for taking an hour to write this post due to multi-tasking

Edited by Lynata

Like the real Imperium. So large, so vast, and so unconnected, despite their "best efforts", that various Sectors might have the same name, or you might find another traveler with a ship that bears the name yours' has. And this is to say nothing of some possibly enterprising AdMechs who say "well, we couldn't get the plans for the ____, but we'll SAY it is that, and most other people could never tell. Name recognition at its best!"

As for the autoguns, no pattern was stated. Maybe that's just me, but whenever it is a general profile without a fancy unique name, then I'm assuming that this means a sort of standard, as in "all except specific patterns". So, similar to the default autoguns in other games.

I treat it the same way. The one without such a great name that instantly causes fear and havoc in the enemies ranks are the very basic and I look at them if I want an Idea how that weapon category is intended to work in that specific setting as a whole and especially the entire Las category has received a major overhaul in the course of the years and just importing anything from another setting with variable setting rules or anything other would be just to easy.

But to be honest... my old Techpriest always missed the chance to amp-up his D'Laku Lasgun in his early days. xD

[edit] ninja'd - this is what I get for taking an hour to write this post due to multi-tasking

How dare you doing other stuff, and not just staring at the forum, pressing the F5 key nonstop? ;)

In Black Crusade, lasguns with charge sliders are either a special pattern (reflecting GW's fluff in their own d100 Inquisitor game and the tabletop's Guard Codex) or a heretical modification. In Only War, everybody gets it - as a result to FFG caving in to popular demand during the Beta test.

This might also explain the weird description thing, as the first versions of Only War only had the Triplex-pattern use this feature. Maybe they just didn't edit everything as cleanly as they could have?

As for the autoguns, no pattern was stated. Maybe that's just me, but whenever it is a general profile without a fancy unique name, then I'm assuming that this means a sort of standard, as in "all except specific patterns". So, similar to the default autoguns in other games.

When it states a specific pattern (such as Lucius-pattern), I on the other hand expect them to stay sorta the same, since there's no reason for them not to just create new patterns as they go, seeing as how the systems share a universe, but are relatively self-contained, even if they utilize the same overall ruleset.

A new Imperial Guard codex came out in the meantime that gave hellguns/hotshot weapons very different stats.

The same reason why the next time Kroot get written up they won't have Unnatural Strength. Because they're S3 now. And their kroot rifles will be Pen 4 in melee combat. And Tau rail rifles will have Pen 12 but no Devastating.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

A new Imperial Guard codex came out in the meantime that gave hellguns/hotshot weapons very different stats.

The same reason why the next time Kroot get written up they won't have Unnatural Strength. Because they're S3 now. And their kroot rifles will be Pen 4 in melee combat. And Tau rail rifles will have Pen 12 but no Devastating.

Either way, case close. Much love, people.

It's an interesting theory, but shouldn't they have changed more than just the range in that case?


Furthermore, weapons in the TT generally do not bear pattern names but are presented as generic models, so since FFG went with an individual model here, any differences to the standard profile would have already been justified. Or, they could have simply picked any other name to avoid this confusion.



FFG's 40k RPGs generally do not try to replicate either the rules or the fluff from Games Workshop 100%, so just because a Codex changed something it's no guarantee that FFG will follow suit. Just like it ignores various aspects that exist in TT rules and Codex fluff right now.


For example, the most recent version of Astartes bolters in Dark Heresy have a 25% damage boost over their Human equivalent, and a comparison between their profile and the other weapons of that particular product line essentially makes them the TT equivalent of plasma weapons. Conversely, Ogryns in Only War are physically weaker than Space Marines (US2 vs US4), whereas in the TT they are stronger (S5 vs S4)...


Though it should be noted that Black Crusade - the only RPG designed to have Astartes and Human characters play side by side - has much stronger plasma weapons than Only War, thus providing proof for equipment stats rising and falling depending on the game you're playing, just like it happens to some enemy/NPC profiles.


And once we have established that every game has its own independent series of stats and profiles, sometimes with significant differences ... why should we assume changes in the tabletop carry over for the sake of consistency, when the different RPGs do not even provide consistency between themselves? :huh:

Well I may be getting mixed up because I don't play RT, but don't they use the same stats as Dark Heresy?

In TT, hotshot lasguns have 18" range and hotshot laspistols have 6", so 3/4 and 1/2 the amount of their regular counterparts.

Well I may be getting mixed up because I don't play RT, but don't they use the same stats as Dark Heresy?

Partially. There seems to be a sort of "proximity" between equipment in DH, RT and OW where most guns are quite comparable. It's only Black Crusade, and Astartes weapons in general, that are so out of whack.

In TT, hotshot lasguns have 18" range and hotshot laspistols have 6", so 3/4 and 1/2 the amount of their regular counterparts.

What about their damage and armour penetration, though? That's what I was referring to.

If OW has a Lucius-pattern Hot-Shot Lasgun with Hellgun stats, I'm now expecting a difference to TT hellguns that transcends range. Surely, range is not the only difference between hotshot and hellguns in the new Codex?

Edited by Lynata

Well I may be getting mixed up because I don't play RT, but don't they use the same stats as Dark Heresy?

Partially. There seems to be a sort of "proximity" between equipment in DH, RT and OW where most guns are quite comparable. It's only Black Crusade, and Astartes weapons in general, that are so out of whack.

In TT, hotshot lasguns have 18" range and hotshot laspistols have 6", so 3/4 and 1/2 the amount of their regular counterparts.

What about their damage and armour penetration, though? That's what I was referring to.

If OW has a Lucius-pattern Hot-Shot Lasgun with Hellgun stats, I'm now expecting a difference to TT hellguns that transcends range. Surely, range is not the only difference between hotshot and hellguns in the new Codex?

TT hotshot lasguns are 18" S3 AP3 Rapid Fire.

The BC and OW weapons are very close to the Deathwatch errata weapons.

*looks at Militarum Tempestus codex* identified specifically as Ryza pattern.

(Incidentally, probably not by coincidence this gives space marines and stormtroopers exactly equal chances to remove each other as casualties: 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 2/9 vs. 2/3 x 1/3 = 2/9)

Uh, I think we've had a major misunderstanding here - as already hinted at in my previous post, I took your comment about a new Codex having "different stats for hellguns/hotshot weapons" as referring to GW finally having split up the ongoing hotshot/hellgun back-and-forth into two distinct weapon systems.

Having now taken a look at the books myself (it pays off to work at a place with so many geeks :lol: ), I see that you were just referring to that dual name itself, and that both names still refer to a single weapon.

Hot-shot lasguns were already 18" S3 AP3 in the 5th Edition Codex Imperial Guard - so the new book didn't change anything here.

Conclusion: The range difference between those two guns in FFG's RPGs must have another reason. Which brings us back to square one - or the other theories voiced in this thread.

The BC and OW weapons are very close to the Deathwatch errata weapons.

DW/BC Astartes Plasma Gun: 1d10+12 Pen 10
DW/BC Astartes Plasma Gun: 1d10+10 Pen 8
BC Human Plasma Gun: 1d10+8 Pen 10
BC Human Plasma Pistol: 1d10+7 Pen 8
vs
DH Human Plasma Gun: 1d10+6 Pen 6
DH Human Plasma Pistol: 1d10+6 Pen 6
RT Human Plasma Gun: 1d10+7 Pen 6
RT Human Plasma Pistol: 1d10+6 Pen 6
OW Human Plasma Gun: 1d10+7 Pen 6
OW Human Plasma Pistol: 1d10+6 Pen 6
See what they did here? In BC, Human plasma weapons hit a spike.
Probably because that's the one game where they are supposed to fight side by side with Marines.
Also:
DH/DW/BC/OW Astartes Boltgun: 1d10+9 Pen 4
DH/DW/BC/OW Astartes Bolt Pistol: 1d10+9 Pen 4
=> Marine bolt weapons are actually better than Human plasma weapons everywhere except for BC.
In the TT, they would thus probably be S 7 or S 8, AP 5 ... rather than the S 4 AP 5 profile they actually have in GW's books.
Conclusion: This RPG doesn't really care a lot for TT stats.

*looks at Militarum Tempestus codex* identified specifically as Ryza pattern.

Wouldn't this have sabotaged your earlier theory, given that Fgdsfg wanted to discuss the Lucius-pattern?

No matter, though - the Codex keeps GW's standard of not listing pattern names in the profile tables.

Yes, there is a Ryza-pattern pictured on one of the fluff pages, but all this does it tell us that this is one pattern the Scions use - it mustn't be the only one, especially now that their numbers have been so greatly expanded. To assume so would be equal to saying that, for example, all Space Marines use only the Godwyn-pattern bolter, just because that may be the only one pictured on the Codex's gun fluff page.

(for my headcanon I actually believe they do use only this gun, so I'm with you here - I'm just playing Devil's Advocate again)

... thanks for making me request a look at those books, by the way! They have some very cool fluff, even if I don't like all of it (-> the retcons). :)

Edited by Lynata

You cannot compare plasma with bolt weapons (or any other weapons) without taking Maximal into account. If you do that, IG plasma becomes significantly superior to Astartes bolt weapons, except for the part where it can kill the firer.Just like TT! :)

EDIT: I think I'm confusing something. I was refering to the 5th Edition IG codex, which changed the hotshot statline and appeared after Dark Heresy and the Inquisitor's Handbook.
EDIT2: if you really want to mimic plasma as it functions in TT. get rid of the safety mode, bump it up to 2d10+8 Pen 12 and give every shot Overloads.
Edited by bogi_khaosa

Automatically adding Maximal (which did not even exist in Dark Heresy, btw) to plasma weapons is similar to automatically adding special ammo to bolters. I don't think this - the assumption that every soldier in the Imperium is firing their plasma weapon on overcharge, as if there was no other setting - is how you're supposed to compare stats. ;)

But give me some time and I'll take a look at what a Space Marine plasma weapon on Maximal does, and how this compares to the other guns of Humans. :P

[edit] Hmm, 2d10+9, Pen 10. What do you think - meltagun, perhaps?

I think I'm confusing something. I was refering to the 5th Edition IG codex, which changed the hotshot statline and appeared after Dark Heresy and the Inquisitor's Handbook.

This could be it, yes - the 5E Codex upped the hellguns' penetration from AP 5 to AP 3.

It's possible this led to the +4 Pen buff this weapon got in subsequent publications, so this might be an example where a change in stats did carry over into the RPG. Alternatively, the FFG team just had a different idea for this weapon, anyways - they've re-statted several previously existing weapons without the TT changing anything on them, after all. Including Astartes bolters, which used to have comparable average damage to Human bolters before DW. Just like in the TT.

EDIT2: if you really want to mimic plasma as it functions in TT. get rid of the safety mode, bump it up to 2d10+8 Pen 12 and give every shot Overloads.

I don't really mind how plasma works, but the arbitrary and conflicting +25% damage buff to Spess Mehreens continues to vex me. :lol: Probably just because I perceive that as "faction favoritism", compared to individual weapons who just don't feel quite perfect.

Thinking about it, though, I guess I would boost plasma weapons... maybe not to those numbers, but more than they are now. The ones in BC already looked rather neat in terms of damage potential, but I'd certainly have to give it more thought!

Edited by Lynata

In Deathwatch, you only get results comparable to the TT if you

  • take the errata 1.1 stats,
  • add 1d10 damage to Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol (which in turn means you need to give melta +1d10 too. And use my melta rule of +1d10 & half AP up to short range),
  • take maximal into account.

That is the grim reality. The Assault Cannon (S 6) is 2d10+12, the Heavy Bolter (1d10+12).

Therefore we are aiming at 3d10+12 (or 4d10+6 or other equivalents) with a Pen of 10.

By that (if you accept my Mortal = Astartes-4 guideline), we can see that PG/PP are too weak by 1d10 in OW too. 2d10+6/7 with a Pen of at least 8 would be much more appropriate.

TT hotshot lasguns are 18" S3 AP3 Rapid Fire.

Going by my conversion rules , their stats should approximately be (S3 weapons never get the Astartes +4 bonus; at S3 there is no difference between Astartes and Mortal):

ROF S/3/- Dam 1d10+4 Pen 8

So they are appropriately modeled in OW! No complaint here. :)

As for range, 12'' is about 30m and 24'' about 100m, so 60m sound right.

Alex

Edited by ak-73

The RPG isn't meant to replicate the TT - it should be obvious just by looking at how the profiles of equipment and enemies change depending on the individual product line's "theme", such as the plasma spike in BC, which in OW once again returned to its older standard.

... and the RPG's ignorance towards the TT's fluff clarifying that those mortal Humans' weapons are as potent as the just-as-mortal Astartes' ones. Or the equal profiles in GW's d100 Inquisitor rules.

This is simply a different vision of the 41st millennium, which provides an excuse as to why various guns may work differently.

my Mortal = Astartes-4 guideline

I swear, everytime I'm reading this, I am reminded of the -4 Str meme .

The numerical similarity is a hilarious coincidence. ;)

Edited by Lynata